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I just saw the new trailer! (Spoilers? Well, yes!)

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We don't know that Kirk is a cadet during his first stint on the Enterprise.

What has been said is that he's been denied a starship assignment during the crisis - not that he's been denied a commission.

What, he's wearing a cadet uniform?

No, no he's not.

We've seen the cadet uniforms, and they aren't the "Hamlet" outfit he's got on, any more than his outfit is that of an Enterprise crew member (and the Enterprise crew outfits are themselves different from every other Starfleet uniform we've seen in clips and photos).
 
Captain X - I think you're not taking into account that the only reason Kirk isn't a comissioned officer like the others is because of the Kobayashi Maru incident. For all we know he could otherwise have been top of his class. Under those circumstances, Pike giving him the XO's position in am emergency doesn't seem so far-fetched.
 
Except that nobody, to my knowledge, has ever identified "unrealistic command structure" as a serious flaw in Star Trek to date. There's nothing to fix.
Then why the reboot?

The lack of realism is deliberate, maintained for dramatic purposes. Starfleet protocol serves the characters as needed, not the other way around. Realism is suffered until it runs into something more important.
Not only is that stupid, that's the kind of thing that makes a lot of movies stupid.

Was it Starfleet's decision when Picard decided to take over an entire fleet in "First Contact?"
Captain Picard, an experienced senior officer who had previously commanded fleets before, and was uniquely qualified to fight the Borg.

In fact, Kirk in this situation is more or less an ACTING Captain. This is how Memory Alpha defines an Acting Captain:

The position of acting captain is bestowed upon an officer or another officer aboard a starship when the ship's regular commanding officer is unable to command for an extended period of time.
And that position would be meant for a qualified officer.

Memory Alpha goes on to cite examples like Data becoming an acting Captain in the TNG Episode "Night Terrors," and then again in "Gambit Part 1 & 2. Harry Kim took over as acting captain for Voyager during the episode "Course: Oblivion" when all the senior officers "dissolved."
And both were commissioned officers within the chain of command.

So considering Pike left Kirk as Spock's First Officer, and Spock is off and away somewhere, Kirk feasibly can take over since he is next in line, and the commanding officer is incapacitated.
Kirk is not a commissioned officer and therefore is unable to be placed within the ship's chain of command. He has no experience and would be a danger to the ship, it's crew, and whatever mission they hoped to accomplish.

Ok, my 2 cents on the Kirk taking command thing. From what I recall of spoilers from way back, Kirk is denied officer status after cheating on the KOM test. It's entirely possible that Kirk is a Lt. much like Saavik was, but is getting punished by a grouchy old Admiral.
The fact Saavik was wearing LT rank has been nitpicked plenty of times, and so far the only explanation that makes sense is that she was a cadet officer, not a commissioned officer. And if Kirk was commissioned, he would be an ensign, and be the most inexperienced person on that ship.

If Pike gives him his rank back, which is probably within his rights during a combat situation, then Kirk is actually in the chain of command.
And there would still be plenty of more experienced officers on board more qualified to take command in the event Pike and Spock are unable to.

Since he's Kirk the wunder kid and did really well at SFA, and gets his Lt. rank back, he actually would be 3rd in command if Pike ordered it.
The way I read it he was Kirk the problem child with problems with authority and was being punished and was almost kicked out of the academy, not an officer who was being punished.

Pike and Spock are gone. Sulu and Uhura would then be the same rank as him, but probably didn't take the same advanced command courses Kirk did.
All officers receive command training, or they wouldn't be officers. The function of an officer is to command.

McCoy isn't in the chain of command, as per canon. Remember, fricking Leslie got command over McCoy in TOS. Geordi gets command over Troi or Crusher.
But if it was just them and a cadet, they would still be the ones left to take command. Remember, both Troi and Crusher were left in command of the ship when there was basically no one else left to do so.

So it could make sense.
I'm getting the impression that it doesn't really matter if there's any kind of realism involved, because the people excited to see this movie are blind to anything that might be negative about it.

Captain X - I think you're not taking into account that the only reason Kirk isn't a comissioned officer like the others is because of the Kobayashi Maru incident.
We don't know that for sure, all we know for sure is that he was being punished and was being considered for expulsion at the time of this emergency, and that despite obvious manpower shortages, he was still singled out to have been left behind. Not exactly what happens to a capable cadet.

For all we know he could otherwise have been top of his class. Under those circumstances, Pike giving him the XO's position in am emergency doesn't seem so far-fetched.
Yeah it does, because he's a cadet, which means his training is not complete and that he is not a commissioned officer. This also means he has no previous experience, making him the least qualified person on board that ship, so not someone you'd want to make an acting XO or any position within the chain of command.
 
Hold on a moment... (no spoiler tags here since I may only be speculating)

From what I've seen and read so far, I was led to believe the Academy scenes took place during graduation ceremonies. Wouldn't that mean that Kirk is no longer a cadet, but an ensign? Also, it would seem that McCoy is graduating at the same time as Kirk, which means he would be the exact same rank, along with Chekov and Sulu and possibly even Uhura. (Click on the pic below to see what I mean.)



Also, from what's been rumored, later on aboard the Enterprise, an explosion happens in Sickbay that effectively places McCoy in charge as CMO. Considering the situation they're embroiled in, the command chair wouldn't be the wisest place to put McCoy at that time. With Pike dead or missing, and Spock persona non grata, who does that leave? Why, the only ranking officer trained for command, of course...Kirk.

So, the argument that Kirk can't take command as a cadet is rendered moot because he's not a cadet anymore; he's an Ensign, the same rank as all the other bridge crew present at the change in command. And why put someone like McCoy or Sulu in command when they're needed for the duties they're assigned to? It's not like they have junior officers who can take their places; they ARE the junior officers.
 
Captain Picard, an experienced senior officer who had previously commanded fleets before, and was uniquely qualified to fight the Borg.

Still doesn't change the fact that it wasn't a "Starfleet Decision." He just decided at the whim.

And that position would be meant for a qualified officer.

In the loophole of things, he was qualified. He was a first officer.

And both were commissioned officers within the chain of command.

One possibly qualified, the other perhaps not.

Kirk is not a commissioned officer and therefore is unable to be placed within the ship's chain of command. He has no experience and would be a danger to the ship, it's crew, and whatever mission they hoped to accomplish.

Does it sound like the Enterprise gets blown up at the end of the movie?
 
We know Kirk is graduated by the time he gets on the Enterprise. But he was denied a post on a starship based on his little test stunt. Which kind of places him in limbo, at least until Pike offers him a spot on the command center. I'm sure it'll make sense enough. Uhura, Chekov, McCoy and Sulu all graduate at pretty much the same time as Kirk, so none of them are more experienced. There's nothing to indicate that any other more experienced command people are still alive by the time Kirk sits in the chair.
 
I'm getting the impression that it doesn't really matter if there's any kind of realism involved, because the people excited to see this movie are blind to anything that might be negative about it.

Oh please give me a break. It's ONLY A MOVIE people. ONLY A MOVIE.

Stop making judgements on something that you HAVENT EVEN SEEN yet
and you DONT KNOW THE CONTEXT IN WHICH THE THINGS YOU HAVE SEEN ARE IN!!

I am perfectly okay with opinions and judgements made about something once you have actually seen it, but it's like making a judgement about a book from reading the jacket description.
 
Hold on a moment... (no spoiler tags here since I may only be speculating)

From what I've seen and read so far, I was led to believe the Academy scenes took place during graduation ceremonies. Wouldn't that mean that Kirk is no longer a cadet, but an ensign? Also, it would seem that McCoy is graduating at the same time as Kirk, which means he would be the exact same rank, along with Chekov and Sulu and possibly even Uhura. (Click on the pic below to see what I mean.)



Also, from what's been rumored, later on aboard the Enterprise, an explosion happens in Sickbay that effectively places McCoy in charge as CMO. Considering the situation they're embroiled in, the command chair wouldn't be the wisest place to put McCoy at that time. With Pike dead or missing, and Spock persona non grata, who does that leave? Why, the only ranking officer trained for command, of course...Kirk.

So, the argument that Kirk can't take command as a cadet is rendered moot because he's not a cadet anymore; he's an Ensign, the same rank as all the other bridge crew present at the change in command. And why put someone like McCoy or Sulu in command when they're needed for the duties they're assigned to? It's not like they have junior officers who can take their places; they ARE the junior officers.

It looks like the alien female next to McCoy in that pic may be the same from the bridge.
 
Captain X - Its a reasonable assumption that in emergency situations a Captain can grant field commissions to cadets, which Pike seems to have done with Kirk. As acting XO he has every business taking command once the CO has been declared psychologically unfit for command.

Captain Tim Waters, USS Valiant.
 
Yeah it does, because he's a cadet, which means his training is not complete and that he is not a commissioned officer. This also means he has no previous experience, making him the least qualified person on board that ship, so not someone you'd want to make an acting XO or any position within the chain of command.
He has any much experience as all the other fresh-out-of-the-academy people on board. McCoy is a medical officer and totally unsuited for command. Kirk has more raw ability than any other available.

...and again, I stress that the ONLY reason he's a cadet (before Pike promotes him to XO) is because of the Kobayashi Maru - a test he took three times and only "cheated" on during his final attempt. He's cadet status is purely officious. He's had as much training as any of the others. The only thing he's lacking is a rubber stamp, which Pike gives him.
 
We don't know that Kirk is a cadet during his first stint on the Enterprise.

What has been said is that he's been denied a starship assignment during the crisis - not that he's been denied a commission.

What, he's wearing a cadet uniform?

No, no he's not.

We've seen the cadet uniforms, and they aren't the "Hamlet" outfit he's got on, any more than his outfit is that of an Enterprise crew member (and the Enterprise crew outfits are themselves different from every other Starfleet uniform we've seen in clips and photos).

Exactly. To me it looks just like the black undershirt all the other crew-members wear also under their colored shirts.
 
Wow, looks like we have a Star Trek XI equivalent to stj in the BSG forums, typing out entire volumes of bitching and moaning.
 
Wow, looks like we have a Star Trek XI equivalent to stj in the BSG forums, typing out entire volumes of bitching and moaning.


I don't know...

I see Open And Frank Conversation so far, with only a little bit of B&M...

Seems to me that it's pretty tame at the moment.:)
 
I'm referring to sheer quantity of posting, how the biggest hater here is giving stj a run for his money, spending all his time on volumes of anti-Trek posts for something allegedly not worth wasting his time on.
 
Concerning the following IMG, are we seeing a second or axillary shuttle-bay? (not that I am complaining, I think it's a good idea)

http://img3.imagebanana.com/img/bmzqogjv/thumb/Trailer3_Frame3241.png
I dunno about a shuttle bay... maybe cargo doors or something. There does seem to be a bit of an undercut within the undercut of the fantail... you can see it in the next scene showing the Enterprise from below, too.

A cargo bay is logical, I suppose.
 
I'm referring to sheer quantity of posting, how the biggest hater here is giving stj a run for his money, spending all his time on volumes of anti-Trek posts for something allegedly not worth wasting his time on.


Isn't this kinda like throwing Gas on the flames???
 
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