"Harbinger" - really that bad?

[commodore64]

^ Hmm,
hates Harbinger...
* Hates Bound...
** Loves ANIS...
*** There's a pattern in there somewhere... Quick, someone call Fox Mulder!

(BTW, before I get banned, I should point out that this is me kidding, not an attempt in malicious sarcasm )

I think you're assuming that my A/T'P-ism places rose-colored glasses on me. I disagree. Sure, I like A/T'P, but I didn't like Carpenter Street and am not crazy about The Seventh. I think, overall, I care more about good character development and plot than a relationship. (You might argue that ANIS made Archer look like a dork, but I would say -- yes it did, and that was the very point. Then again, I like the character.)

I think it's interesting, though, I merely had to quote someone else. Maybe I'm not alone in my thinking?

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

^ Hmm,
hates Harbinger...
* Hates Bound...
** Loves ANIS...
*** There's a pattern in there somewhere... Quick, someone call Fox Mulder!

(BTW, before I get banned, I should point out that this is me kidding, not an attempt in malicious sarcasm )

This business of making sarcastic comments about a poster and then claiming "Just kidding! " has outworn its welcome, Mach5. I'm not in the mood for it anymore. You've already racked up one warning today. Don't make it two. Knock this crap off.

 

[Mach5]

^ Hmm,
hates Harbinger...
* Hates Bound...
** Loves ANIS...
*** There's a pattern in there somewhere... Quick, someone call Fox Mulder!

(BTW, before I get banned, I should point out that this is me kidding, not an attempt in malicious sarcasm )

I think you're assuming that my A/T'P-ism places rose-colored glasses on me. I disagree. Sure, I like A/T'P, but I didn't like Carpenter Street and am not crazy about The Seventh. I think, overall, I care more about good character development and plot than a relationship. (You might argue that ANIS made Archer look like a dork, but I would say -- yes it did, and that was the very point. Then again, I like the character.)

I think it's interesting, though, I merely had to quote someone else. Maybe I'm not alone in my thinking?

I doubt you are, and I'm actually very satisfied with this answer. I may not agree with your views, but at least you explain them in a careful and interesting way.
But I am puzzled... You are the Archer fan, are you not? Didn't you like the way he demonstrated his authority with Reed and Hayes?
Because my reaction to his shouting was something like: "Go, Captain!"

 

[commodore64]

Thanks. Am I *the* Archer fan? I don't think I'm alone in liking the character. I just think more people who like Trip are attracted to this board.

As to the question about liking his dressing down -- you know, I didn't mostly because I think it was over the top like the rest of the episode. I know this will sound strange, but I love the Reed portion of the Klingon forehead episodes and yet, hate when Archer gets in his face and screams at him. I didn't think it was very Archer-like. Archer, to me, seems like a guy who mostly feels uncomfortable being the military commander ... which is what to me season 3 was a lot about. I think when he has to step into this role, it's a bit like a duck out of water. I think what may have worked better in both instances is quiet and sarcastic anger, like the kind he displays in Damage to T'Pol after she shatters the hand-held computer. Besides thinking Archer is the kind to go quietly angry, I always think less is more ... which is why I think the Trip crying scene in The Forgotten is silly.

I thought Archer's outrage in ANIS worked because it *was* over the top .... And that was the point. Archer was too proud and needed to take everything down a few notches.

 

[Mach5]

Am I *the* Archer fan? I don't think I'm alone in liking the character.

I kinda like him too. Not all the time, but most of the time (but I still think he should have been better written).

I just think more people who like Trip are attracted to this board.

Can't an ENT fan like both of them? I do (I like Trip a lot more though)

... which is why I think the Trip crying scene in The Forgotten is silly.

But... But... He finally dealt with the death of his baby sister there... Have a little hart, Commie!

Okay, back to Harbinger.

Archer, to me, seems like a guy who mostly feels uncomfortable being the military commander ... which is what to me season 3 was a lot about.

I agree about Archer being an explorer, not a soldier, but I think the Expanse-related stress was getting to him. He was literally carrying the weight of the world on his shoulders and needed an outlet, because he was breaking down inside. And the soldier boy duo was a perfect target, they were practically begging for it, behaving like idiots and all.

 

[commodore64]

I kinda like him too. Not all the time, but most of the time (but I still think he should have been better written).

We reach. I feel the same way about Trip. I like the guy, but dislike some of the things he did in season 3 and 4.

Can't an ENT fan like both of them? I do (I like Trip a lot more though)

I absolutely think so. ENT is one of the few Star Treks that I like all the characters. Trip is probably my least favorite, but I still like him. I assume most people who post to the ENT forum have to at least tolerate all the characters or else they wouldn't probably bother to post.

But... But... He finally dealt with the death of his baby sister there... Have a little hart, Commie!

I have a big heart, despite what some may say. It's the cholesterol. Seriously, I think I would've had more sympathy for Trip if they didn't mention his sister every episode and he didn't mope about it so frequently. I think restrained emotion is always the most beautiful. I would've felt sorrier for Trip if he hung his head and whispered, "She was my sister, T'Pol." Seeing him weep didn't really move me.

You know, maybe this is one of the reasons I like Archer better and may explain why I like characters. (See, you really got me thinking.) I really like characters who have restrained emotion -- Spock, Avon, Archer .... I like knowing characters are in turmoil; they don't have to continue to tell me.

I agree about Archer being an explorer, not a soldier, but I think the Expanse-related stress was getting to him. He was literally carrying the weight of the world on his shoulders and needed an outlet, because he was breaking down inside. And the soldier boy duo was a perfect target, they were practically begging for it, behaving like idiots and all.

I agree they were acting like idiots, but ... so was he. And Phlox. And .... Everyone took their emotions to the power of 10. I think what may've been better to see is if Archer came across as a cool customer and gave them something like KP duty (scrubbing latrines, peeling potatoes, etc.). One of the best moments of TOS is when Scotty starts a fight to protect the honor of the NCC Enterprise (instead of his captain). Kirk crosses many of his crew to determine what happened and punishes Scotty, but does so with a sense of panache. Kirk means business (he's not yelling), but for a moment we see whimsy in his eye as he doles out the punishment. Better still, Scotty gets excited about being confined to quarters b/c he gets to catch up on his technical reading.

See the difference?

 

[gblews]

Seriously, I think I would've had more sympathy for Trip if they didn't mention his sister every episode and he didn't mope about it so frequently.

A couple of things, haven't you posted many times here in the past that there was hardly any mention of Elizabeth's death in episodes prior to The Forgotten (and after The Expanse) and that there was little to no showing of Trip's feelings about Eiizabeth's death prior to The Forgotten? Did something change or am I misremembering this?

Sure, I like A/T'P, but I didn't like Carpenter Street and am not crazy about The Seventh.

So, if I could search back through the BBS archives over the last 4-5 years I wouldn't find one post of yours which expressed your unabashed love for The Seventh?

 

[gblews]

Seriously, I think I would've had more sympathy for Trip if they didn't mention his sister every episode and he didn't mope about it so frequently.

A couple of things, haven't you posted many times here in the past that there was hardly any mention of Elizabeth's death in episodes prior to The Forgotten (and after The Expanse) and that there was little to no showing of Trip's feelings about Eiizabeth's death prior to The Forgotten? Did something change or am I misremembering this?

Sure, I like A/T'P, but I didn't like Carpenter Street and am not crazy about The Seventh.

So, if I could search back through the BBS archives over the last 4-5 years (and I can't, unfortunately) I wouldn't find one post of yours which expressed your unabashed love for The Seventh?

 

[commodore64]

A couple of things, haven't you posted many times here in the past that there was hardly any mention of Elizabeth's death in episodes prior to The Forgotten (and after The Expanse) and that there was little to no showing of Trip's feelings about Eiizabeth's death prior to The Forgotten? Did something change or am I misremembering this?

Misremembering. My complaint about The Expanse is that we didn't meet Elizabeth and that it would've been more impactful if we had. For example, we'd met Reed's sister. I then said although we'd seen her once (in Trip's dream), he constantly mentioned her.

So, if I could search back through the BBS archives over the last 4-5 years I wouldn't find one post of yours which expressed your unabashed love for The Seventh?

Be my guest. I know I've taken some heat on Logical Choice for not being in love with The Seventh, and I can't think of many A/T'P fans that like Carpenter Street. I remember when it came out, we were all incredibly disappointed.

I will say this -- a quote from a friend of mine. I'm consistent in my inconsistency. I may have defended Seventh or Carpenter Street, but I still am not crazy about them.

Back to Harbinger .... < I feel the mods being lenient, but probably on the verge of reminding me what the thread is about.

 

[SupAJ1M]

no

 

[BillJ]

I enjoyed 'Harbinger' and most of season 3 after buying it on DVD (just got one disc left). Skipped second half of season 3, all of season 3 and part of season 4 first run.

'Doctor's Orders' though is one of the worst of season 3.

 

[KendraW]

I'd say this is my guilty pleasure as I loved the Trip and T'Pol stuff although i think the NP session could have been done better.

What really seems stupid to me in this episode are the so called 'Sparing sessions' Looked to me more like Mayweather and the Maco were kicking the living shite out of each other, thats not sparring where i come from.

And Reed was right to put an end to that!

Reed Hayes thing was silly from the get go, i remember in one of the earlier episodes of the season Reed going off on some hissy fit to T'Pol about the MACO, totally out of the blue, and well T'Pol's just looking on, wondering 'What the fuck'? or i like to think she is.

Archer was right to be pissed off but it seemed a bit late, they had already found a way to deal with their issues and both seemed like they were kinda over it before archer asked them to end their problems. maybe Archer should have tried sorting it out before it became a fist fight.

About Trip's sister, I dunno i really felt for Trip, i think the whole performance was fantastic and exactly how i felt people would react. I may not be remembering correctly but I can't remember him going on about her that much, just being generally darker. he still kept things bottled up to survive and then one day he loses it. When the very man that killed her was roaming the ship and he couldn't tear him limb from limb. That's a head masher if there ever was one and i loved how it played out. I think it demonstrated more than many episodes why humans were ready for space travel. CT seems to have an amazing talent for expressing pain, i far prefer his perfomances in season 3 to his joker performances of earlier episodes.

 

[Newspaper Taxi]

One of the most important plot points of the season was a C plot behind an awkward sex-capade and a school-yard fight at recess.

 

[bluedana]

I would have liked it better if the SphereBuilder plot had been more prominent as an A plot. The Reed/Hayes plot and the Trip/T'Pol plot were fine. Harbinger gives me one of my favorite lines, when Archer snaps, "And DON'T try to tell me who started it!" Which, if you have more than one kid, you've said it.

I think the captain's blow up was effective precisely because you might expect him to give KP duty or smooth it over (like in Dead Stop). But again, some people just go BOOM! if you push them too hard or at the wrong moment.

 

[Mr.bobo]

A solid character-driven hour of Star Trek - is my vote

...a very interesting episode...
...a caracter from expanse try to do damage in the normal space...

 

[DarKush]

One of my favorite hours of ENT. It moved quickly, had some great character moments-which ENT didn't have often, some unintentional humor with Archer's dressing down of Reed and Hayes (loved that scene), fleshed out the Sphere Builders, and deepened the mystery of the 3rd season arc.

 

[pookha]

I would have liked it better if the SphereBuilder plot had been more prominent as an A plot. The Reed/Hayes plot and the Trip/T'Pol plot were fine. Harbinger gives me one of my favorite lines, when Archer snaps, "And DON'T try to tell me who started it!" Which, if you have more than one kid, you've said it.

I think the captain's blow up was effective precisely because you might expect him to give KP duty or smooth it over (like in Dead Stop). But again, some people just go BOOM! if you push them too hard or at the wrong moment.

all of the plots were about equal and there is probably more of the the sphere builder stuff then people remember.

really some things just seemed to fly above people's heads.
like the reason archer was so over the top angry was the realization that more then earth was at stake.
that the people he was dealing with where very willing to change whole sections of space for some reason. even if this killed all life that had existed there before.

that planet recently had been a planet with life and now it was all gone.
archer and the others at first thought they had a survivor.
but when the realization hit that the sphere builder was connected with the people responsible.