The Venus Project: a dream given form.

[All Seeing Eye]

What about floating cities suspended in Venus's upper atmosphere, no need for terraforming. If there was a way to "mine" the Venusian atmosphere for useful chemicals, it would be even better!

Speaking of floating cities I also had the idea to have floating extractors that floated around the Venusian atmosphere.
Here's how it would work. In the atmosphere would be the extractors, attached to each extractor would be a very strong but flexible pipeline, these pipelines would run upwards into orbit and be attached to a platform, these platforms would work in conjunction with the extractors to pump up the CO2 from the atmopshere and release it into space.

 

[scotthm]

What about floating cities suspended in Venus's upper atmosphere, no need for terraforming.

Why not have floating cities in orbit around the sun? No need for Venus.

An artificial black Hole formed in the upper atmosphere will draw in all the CO2 and SO2 atmospheric gasses....

Questions?

Well, yes, but I'll forgo them in the interests of staying out of trouble.

---------------

 

[jgdst]

Appart from the horror at living closer to the Sun...You dont need to go to the effort of A Lunar Collision.

An artificial black Hole formed in the upper atmosphere will draw in all the CO2 and SO2 atmospheric gasses. As the Black Hole breaks down Sulphur and Carbon it will form a nuclear Plasma at the Boundary where Hydrogen from the Sun will burn with Oxygen from the Greenhouse Gasses to form water. Water will fall from the sky is increasing volumes and flood the surface until all that is left is Water.

To close off the Black Hole you must direct a mass at it from all directions simultaneously and then pull away constricting the string entanglement that originally unraveled forming the blackhole.

Voila a Water World near the Sun which will spew Steam from the Atmosphere toward Earth and Moon, and Mars because of its innadequate Magnetic Field to protect it from Radiation.

Questions?

Umm... a few

How big is this artificial black hole, considering that even relatively miniscule one (say the size of a pea) could do significant damage to the Earth if we created one here? Consider how significant the Moon is to Earth despite its relatively small size and large distance.

Considering the forces surrounding a black hole, I would've thought it was more prudent to create multiple singularities and place then equidistantly around the planet to prevent unnecessary stress from tearing apart the planet, or at least its atmosphere. (Though my own personal belief would be to never get involved with trying to harness a black hole )

Also, there are the knock on effects of introducing a new gravitational source such as a black hole. Venus could be easily shifter out of its own orbit, which depending on how severe could result in changes being felt further out in the Solar System. Only a slight shift either way in Earth's orbit spells disaster for life on Earth, whether that be through boiling the planet, or turning the entire globe into a massive snowball.

Secondly, how do you get a black hole to discern between CO2 and SO2 and leave everything else alone - including the planet's surface? The graviational forces associated with a black hole are so tremendous, I honestly don't understand how water is going to be created without being dragged into the black hole itself, assuming the entire atmosphere isn't stripped off anyway.

It's been a while since I last did any calculations involving black hole theory, but my gut instinct is that Venus at the very least would be heavily damaged, but more likely, completely torn apart.

Just my thoughts, and I'll stand happily corrected if I've made any errors in my reasoning

 

[All Seeing Eye]

Wouldn't tiny blackholes evaporate immediately into nothing?

 

[jgdst]

^ I don't know I was running with the idea of black holes big enough to do the task at hand without destroying the solar system.

I assume if they're artificial, you could control their size through magnetic or gravity manipulation down to smallest magnitude? Not sure how you'd do that, but I'm trying to be open-minded for future tech

 

[scotthm]

I'm trying to be open-minded for future tech

I'd think that before trying to figure out how to terraform another world we should get a better understanding of just what properties of this planet are important to us. Do we need the planet to have a magnetic field, or a relatively short daily cycle, or a certain gravitational pull, etc.?

If we could magically convert the Venusian atmosphere to the same composition and density as Earth's there would still be many, many HUGE hurdles to living on Venus, one of which is 'why'? There are still many places on Earth no one wants to live, why live on a dry rock millions of miles from home?

---------------

 

[All Seeing Eye]

I'm trying to be open-minded for future tech

I'd think that before trying to figure out how to terraform another world we should get a better understanding of just what properties of this planet are important to us. Do we need the planet to have a magnetic field, or a relatively short daily cycle, or a certain gravitational pull, etc.?

If we could magically convert the Venusian atmosphere to the same composition and density as Earth's there would still be many, many HUGE hurdles to living on Venus, one of which is 'why'? There are still many places on Earth no one wants to live, why live on a dry rock millions of miles from home?

---------------

Because if you can turn Venus Earthlike (so it isn't a dry rock) that means there's an entire new planet full of resources to tap into and a chance to plant crops and grow enough food to feed everybody no problem. Also Venus would give us the opportunity to start afresh. The worlds top architects could design green energy efficient cities and turn Venus into a Eutopia. The world is already becoming overcrowded, the only places left to live are wastelands, deserts and rocky areas. More and more people are being crammed into small areas and cities.
What will happen to the UK when the population gets too much to handle? I know i'd sooner go live a life on venus and start life on a new world rather than migrate to a new country that's just going to be as overcrowded.
The more people we have on Earth the lower the standard of living is, it would be nice to have an Earthlike Venus around which could help free up some space for a few hundred million people.

 

[scotthm]

if you can turn Venus Earthlike...

Earthlike in what ways? What I'm saying is that we don't yet understand in what ways it will need to be Earthlike in order to make a good habitat. When we do understand, we may find that there are necessary things that we can't accomplish, such as changing the magnetic field, or the rotational period, or (appreciably) the water content. For example, there are about 1.5 billion billion tons of salt water in Earth's oceans. How do you propose to make Venus have Earthlike oceans, if it's found to be necessary?

Venus would give us the opportunity to start afresh. The worlds top architects could design green energy efficient cities and turn Venus into a Eutopia.

There are millions of acres of arid land on Earth that could be turned into this 'Utopia' you suggest. Why not do a proof of concept there first? Perhaps after they've thrived for several generations we can talk intelligently about developing similar habitats on other worlds.

I know i'd sooner go live a life on venus and start life on a new world rather than migrate to a new country that's just going to be as overcrowded.

You can't possibly know how you'd feel about living on Venus, since it's currently unlivable.

---------------

 

[yellowdingo]

How big is this artificial black hole, considering that even relatively miniscule one (say the size of a pea) could do significant damage to the Earth if we created one here? Consider how significant the Moon is to Earth despite its relatively small size and large distance.

You are thinking about massive black holes that ate a star from the inside. When a Black hole begins to form it starts off as a nothing change in possibility. Mass builds based on what it "eats" If it only eats the Atmosphere of a Small Planet like Venus it will pick up a few Gigatons of Gravity.

Considering the forces surrounding a black hole, I would've thought it was more prudent to create multiple singularities and place then equidistantly around the planet to prevent unnecessary stress from tearing apart the planet, or at least its atmosphere. (Though my own personal belief would be to never get involved with trying to harness a black hole )

A planet can survive having its atmosphere eaten by a black hole which begins at near zero mass and works its way up by eating Atmospheric gasses. THe greatest risk this close to the sun will be if those strings that arc out from the sun ever collide and are caught by the black hole.

Also, there are the knock on effects of introducing a new gravitational source such as a black hole. Venus could be easily shifter out of its own orbit, which depending on how severe could result in changes being felt further out in the Solar System. Only a slight shift either way in Earth's orbit spells disaster for life on Earth, whether that be through boiling the planet, or turning the entire globe into a massive snowball.

Not from a few Gigatons of Neutrons. There is going to be a lot of leakage in small black holes - as long as they dont reach the gravity well kind of big - they wont affect planetary motion.

Secondly, how do you get a black hole to discern between CO2 and SO2 and leave everything else alone - including the planet's surface? The graviational forces associated with a black hole are so tremendous, I honestly don't understand how water is going to be created without being dragged into the black hole itself, assuming the entire atmosphere isn't stripped off anyway.

Well it eats all the atmospheric gasses but because there is a perpetual firestorm
at the periphery of the "black hole cyclone"Molecular failure comes first. Hydrogen burns with Oxygen, Carbon and sulphur burns into a molten Carbon/Sulphur magma - cooling into "graphite" and ash. But because the bond between Carbon or Sulphur breaks and their Oxygen out further from the eye of the storm than where Carbon and Sulphur go molten...Oxygen is more likey to go to Water with Hydrogen.

It's been a while since I last did any calculations involving black hole theory, but my gut instinct is that Venus at the very least would be heavily damaged, but more likely, completely torn apart.

As I said above - only if the Black hole gets realy big. A little black hole with only the Atmosphere of a planet to feed off will do little damage.

Perhaps what is of the greatest risk is the fact that a black hole expands into the Past as well as the future - from point of origin. We could well create a situation where life exists on Venus or is extinct on Earth in an alternate time line expanding backwards through time. once the black hole affect the Soviet Probe on Venus, it may follow that quantum/space-time path back to earth and destroy us all.

 

[scotthm]

A planet can survive having its atmosphere eaten by a black hole...

Perhaps what is of the greatest risk is the fact that a black hole expands into the Past as well as the future - from point of origin. We could well create a situation where life exists on Venus or is extinct on Earth in an alternate time line expanding backwards through time.

OK, I get it now. I'm in the Twilight Zone.

---------------

 

[yellowdingo]

A planet can survive having its atmosphere eaten by a black hole...

Perhaps what is of the greatest risk is the fact that a black hole expands into the Past as well as the future - from point of origin. We could well create a situation where life exists on Venus or is extinct on Earth in an alternate time line expanding backwards through time.

OK, I get it now. I'm in the Twilight Zone.

---------------

No...you're on Planet Earth...just as they start playing with black holes on the assumption that just because the monkey knows how to flip a switch, they should be allowed to do so.

 

[jgdst]

Hmmm. Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions yellowdingo, but I'm still not overly sold on the black hole idea, I'm afraid.

Would you be able to point me in the direction of some research or papers underlying your ideas please? It seems there's a staggering amount about black holes that I didn't know

 

[All Seeing Eye]

or (appreciably) the water content. For example, there are about 1.5 billion billion tons of salt water in Earth's oceans. How do you propose to make Venus have Earthlike oceans, if it's found to be necessary?

What happens when you burn Hydrogen with Oxygen? you get water (H2O). Jupiters atmosphere comprises of about 88-92% Hydrogen. Once you've got plant life on Venus filling the atmosphere with Oxygen you introduce the Hydrogen. Obviously for the plantlife to start growing and spreading water will have to be taken from Earth to begin with and used to kickstart everything but once oxygen is being pumped out that's when you can start the introduction of huge quantities of Hydrogen.
At some point you artificially create an Ozone layer using (O3) to stop the UV light from the sun breaking the water down into it's constituent parts.

 

[scotthm]

Once you've got plant life on Venus filling the atmosphere with Oxygen you introduce the Hydrogen. Obviously for the plantlife to start growing and spreading water will have to be taken from Earth to begin with and used to kickstart everything but once oxygen is being pumped out that's when you can start the introduction of huge quantities of Hydrogen.

You say all of this as if there's just nothing to it.

What will the temperature be on Venus's sunlit surface after you've removed all the CO2? When you re-introduce water to the planet, how do you know that you won't produce enough water vapor into the atmosphere to start the greenhouse process all over again? The taxpayers will be very unhappy after we've spent $100 billion trillion dollars removing the CO2 only to find that the $500 trillion trillion spent adding water just heats things up again.

---------------

 

[All Seeing Eye]

You say all of this as if there's just nothing to it.

What will the temperature be on Venus's sunlit surface after you've removed all the CO2? When you re-introduce water to the planet, how do you know that you won't produce enough water vapor into the atmosphere to start the greenhouse process all over again? The taxpayers will be very unhappy after we've spent $100 billion trillion dollars removing the CO2 only to find that the $500 trillion trillion spent adding water just heats things up again.

---------------

It's all based on maths my dear watson, i'm not a mathematical genius but at some point we'll know what the temperature will be without a greenhouse effect and work out just how much water vapour can be allowed in the atmosphere. By the time we can actually do all this i'm pretty sure we'll know precisely how much of what will be required.

On another note, even if we can't get the temperature down far enough there's no way the temperature of Venus will be so high once the CO2 is taken away. It will be a lot easier to colonise Venus without a greenhouse effect then what it would to colonise it with it's dense CO2 atmosphere.
Getting rid of the CO2 is money well spent, anything beyond that is nothing more than an added bonus.

On yet ANOTHER note, Venus obviously has equatorial and polar regions, like Earth the further from the equator you go the cooler it would be, so the polar regions on Venus could be equal to the equatorial regions on Earth and thus liveable.

 

[sojourner]

if you can turn Venus Earthlike...

Earthlike in what ways? What I'm saying is that we don't yet understand in what ways it will need to be Earthlike in order to make a good habitat. When we do understand, we may find that there are necessary things that we can't accomplish, such as changing the magnetic field, or the rotational period, or (appreciably) the water content. For example, there are about 1.5 billion billion tons of salt water in Earth's oceans. How do you propose to make Venus have Earthlike oceans, if it's found to be necessary?

Venus would give us the opportunity to start afresh. The worlds top architects could design green energy efficient cities and turn Venus into a Eutopia.

There are millions of acres of arid land on Earth that could be turned into this 'Utopia' you suggest. Why not do a proof of concept there first? Perhaps after they've thrived for several generations we can talk intelligently about developing similar habitats on other worlds.

I know i'd sooner go live a life on venus and start life on a new world rather than migrate to a new country that's just going to be as overcrowded.

You can't possibly know how you'd feel about living on Venus, since it's currently unlivable.

---------------

Did you read my original post at all? if you had, you would see that I answered most of your questions with my original idea.

In anticipation of what one of your next questions might be. No, I do not have any research/mathematics to show that it would work. I am sure someone with a physics background could actually provide that information seeing as the original concept only really requires one major leap of faith - how to move these massive objects. the rest is just refinement of when and where to make them collide for the intended effect.

 

[scotthm]

Did you read my original post at all?

Yes, I did, hence my first post in this thread.

In anticipation of what one of your next questions might be. No, I do not have any research/mathematics to show that it would work.

I was sure you didn't, so I wouldn't have asked.

I am sure someone with a physics background could actually provide that information seeing as the original concept only really requires one major leap of faith - how to move these massive objects.

Yes, quite a leap of faith. I have faith that we'll never undertake such a project. We would never be able to expend so much energy for such an uncertain outcome.

---------------

 

[sojourner]

Did you read my original post at all?

Yes, I did, hence my first post in this thread.

In anticipation of what one of your next questions might be. No, I do not have any research/mathematics to show that it would work.

I was sure you didn't, so I wouldn't have asked.

I am sure someone with a physics background could actually provide that information seeing as the original concept only really requires one major leap of faith - how to move these massive objects.

Yes, quite a leap of faith. I have faith that we'll never undertake such a project. We would never be able to expend so much energy for such an uncertain outcome.

---------------

Wow, I didn't realize you had access to everything man would be capable of in the future. Must be reassuring. So, tell me, what will we be capable of in the future since you are so certain of what we won't be able to do?

 

[T J]

And will there be ice cream?

 

[scotthm]

So, tell me, what will we be capable of in the future since you are so certain of what we won't be able to do?

Just because I'm sure that Man will never be able to move planets around the solar system the way we can move billiard balls around on a table doesn't mean I'm omnicient. Like you said, some of this just takes a leap of faith.

---------------