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RIP Saturn & Pontiac

GM has definitely run itself into the ground due to mismanagement, excess brands and nameplates, badge engineering, poor quality/reliability, emphasis on truck/SUV sales, and lack of development for small and mid-size cars. They've only started turning themselves around within the last few years because the competition has gotten light-years ahead of them and sales have gone down.

I've never understood why GM would need to own and operate so many brands - Chevy, Pontiac, Saturn, GMC, Hummer, Buick, Cadillac, Saab. The way I see it, they have so many brands that GM is competing with itself. An SUV buyer might have a hard time deciding between the Chevy TrailBlazer, GMC Envoy and Buick Rainier - three models based on the exact same design, share 90% of the parts, look nearly identical, and are all subpar compared to competitors.

I think that, overall, GM is starting to get things right. It's a shame that it took this economic crisis for them to finally make the tough decision to streamline their company and cut the excess. Saturn, as a brand, was not performing well. And that's a shame. I actually really like Saturn's new products (even if they are mostly rebadged Opels from Europe). I wasn't a fan of their plastic-paneled cars from the 90's. The designs never appealed to me. The new Saturns are dramatically better. But I don't think GM really knew how to market Saturn. What type of brand do they want to be? Pontiac doesn't seem viable as a brand. Pontiac was supposed to be their sporty, performance brand, but GM has down a poor job maintaining that image. Shrinking Pontiac to a "niche" brand with one or two vehicles sounds like a lame excuse to keep the Pontiac name around when it isn't relevant anymore. Hummer as a brand is now useless thanks to the gas crisis and current economic woes. Dump it or sell it. Saab has no appeal for me.

Shrinking the company down to Chevy-GMC-Buick-Cadillac is a dramatic change for this company. Could they do more? Probably. I think having only two or three brands might be even better. However, I understand that GMC does well, especially with their larger trucks. A lot of companies probably rely on GMC. I would keep GMC as the "truck brand" and consolidate all of the trucks under that brand. Chevy can have all the cars, and maybe the Silverado because it's so well-known. Buick is growing in China, so GM is reluctant to kill it. And I will admit that Buick's new and upcoming models look great. The Enclave is a gorgeous SUV. It may be viable if handled properly.
 
My dad was an automotive engineer and retired in 1983. He LOVED IT when unions went on strike, because that meant he worked overtime. Why? To design machines that would automate what was being done by union labor. To this day he laughs and chuckles knowing he put a lot of union workers out of work :)

Serious automation is the key to getting our manufacturing groove-thang back. As we automate, there will be a shedding of jobs but there will always be a need for tenders, mechanics, operators and various and sundry people to keep the works in motion... inspectors to verify the robots are making good parts, people to change cutters/blades/grippers... Things like that.

...and there are tasks like what I do (short-run production) that will never be automated. It's cheaper to write a program walk over and set up a mill and make 10 prototypes (and quicker!) than setting up the robot, programming the machine and all that.

*shrug* We can do it. We just have to be smart about protecting workers rights while lowering costs. Culturally we also need to stop thinking in terms of $40 an hour for pushing a button for 35 years... that just can't happen anymore.
 
What I'm way more angry about is the fact that the Swedish goverment refuses to help out Saab, and today it became clear that it's extremly likely that since they won't, Saab is pretty much dead. And that fucking sucks.
 
GM has definitely run itself into the ground due to mismanagement, excess brands and nameplates, badge engineering, poor quality/reliability, emphasis on truck/SUV sales, and lack of development for small and mid-size cars. They've only started turning themselves around within the last few years because the competition has gotten light-years ahead of them and sales have gone down.
When extra shifts have to be added to meet demand, that's what you do when you're making money. The American consumer WANTS LARGE VEHICLES. Yet, no one wants to get it through their heads nor believe it. The SUV/truck market was the holy cash cow for GM and Ford. You sell what people demand, you don't tell people what they want. That's all part of the business cycle as business needs to watch consumer tastes and be able to match it. The GM plant here, in OKC, converted to SUV production when gas hit $1.75/gal and STILL couldn't keep up with demand.

Europe has the neatest little cars that will never hit our shores. Couple that with the American's aversion to diesel fuel, we're cutting off our noses to spite our faces. Diesel cars and biodiesel fuel would get us toward energy independence, but right now everyone has a hard-on for fucking battery powered cars :rolleyes:
 
Also don't forget the relationship between the automakers, the oil companies and the government, trying to get them to allow European mini-cars over here would take an act of God on an epic scale. The rules have been manipulated in the past to eliminate the possibility of competition... And there is no way especially not now that the Government would allow someone to set up shop selling a rival product that might take away share from it's bestest-buddies in the auto-industry.
 
FWD, snow tires and a standard transmission and it sticks to the road as well as any other car I've driven.

My Saturn was a coupe. It didn't have any of the things that you described. Definitely not a standard transmission (I never successfully learned how to drive one - I can only drive an automatic) or 4-wheel drive (the Vue is the only Saturn I'm aware of that offers it).

As for snow tires? My CR-V doesn't have them, but it DOES have 4-wheel drive. :)

By FWD I meant Front-Wheel Drive. Much better than RWD in snow and ice, I find.

And honestly, snow tires are the single best thing you can get in winter driving conditions. They improve the grip you have on the road thousandfold, and I'd never drive in a Canadian winter without 'em. A standard transmission can really help too, sometimes, especially when accelerating, since you have more control over the vehicle's power output.
 
I am somewhat surprised by the number of Buick supporters here. I haven't known anyone who owned one in at least a decade. If GM wants to cut a brand, I'd start there.
Oh, man...my '94 Park Avenue was da bomb! It was like I was in the car instead of how my current mid-size Chevy Impala makes me feel more like I'm wrapped up in it like it's some kind of straightjacket.

I rather like the Impala overall, but I miss the roominess a big, tall guy like me got with my Buick. And for being "loaded" with extras, it still got pretty decent mileage until it gave up the ghost 2 1/2 years back. :(
 
By FWD I meant Front-Wheel Drive. Much better than RWD in snow and ice, I find.

Oh. Okay, then. My Saturn did have that.

The biggest problem I had with it was that it was really low to the ground and it would get stuck in the snow at the slightest opportunity. I suppose it was just too light (I never weighed its trunk down with roadsalt or anything like that).
 
One thing American manufacturers always did well was build big cars. When I was in my 20's and early 30's (back in the 70's and early 80's) I used to always buy three or four year old big cars relatively cheap and drive them until they died. Cadillacs, Olds 98's, Park Avenues, Plymouth Furys, Chrysler Newports, even a big Ford LTD or two. They were inexpensive to operate, you could fix a lot of things on them yourself and they were great with kids and all the stuff you have to tote around for them.
 
I'm happy with my AMC designed, Ohio built XJ :D

the problem with badge engineering isn't that it allows for a larger line of vehicles to be produced at a lower development cost . . . it's that when you saturate the market with so many similar vehicles everything starts to become bland, and you never know what you're going to get with a new car . . . take BMW or Mercedes for instance . . . you won't ever find a Skoda that's a re-badged BMW, or a Vauxhall that's a re-badged Mercedes . . . when you buy a BMW or Mercedes you know you're getting a quality vehicle . . . when you buy a Pontiac GTO it's secretly a left hand drive Holden Monaro . . . this is partly the reason why I think the Top Gear chaps hate American cars. There's no history with cars anymore. American cars have become design-by-committee, named by focus groups, ugly, cheap-as-in-poorly-built, common, and boring
the Pontiac Aztec I think was the epitome of the sad state of american cars . . . who the hell thought that car was a good idea!?

actually now that I think about it, things aren't as bad as they were in the Malaise era
 
FWD, snow tires and a standard transmission and it sticks to the road as well as any other car I've driven.

My Saturn was a coupe. It didn't have any of the things that you described. Definitely not a standard transmission (I never successfully learned how to drive one - I can only drive an automatic) or 4-wheel drive (the Vue is the only Saturn I'm aware of that offers it).

As for snow tires? My CR-V doesn't have them, but it DOES have 4-wheel drive. :)

By FWD I meant Front-Wheel Drive. Much better than RWD in snow and ice, I find.

And honestly, snow tires are the single best thing you can get in winter driving conditions. They improve the grip you have on the road thousandfold, and I'd never drive in a Canadian winter without 'em. A standard transmission can really help too, sometimes, especially when accelerating, since you have more control over the vehicle's power output.


My 2002 Cavalier handled great in ice and snow. It was a 5-speed manual, and I drove it like I stole it in shitty weather. Now, my older Volkswagen Beetle handles great in ice and snow as well since the engine is in the back, adding weight over the drive wheels. Hence, the same reason front-wheel drive cars do better in ice/snow.

Well, except the old Honda Del Sol. I wanted one really bad and was offered a chance to drive one and it happened to be raining. That car handled like a brick on slick pavement.
 
I heard that Saturn is going to close but warranties will still be in tact. With this struggling economy and a load of layoffs, how is that possible, at least in the sense of taking it to a Saturn dealership or something and getting it fixed. Not fun times if you own a Saturn these days apparently.
 
They'll also continue to make and sell genuine GM parts for Saturns and Pontiacs for some time to come yet.
 
I heard that Saturn is going to close but warranties will still be in tact. With this struggling economy and a load of layoffs, how is that possible, at least in the sense of taking it to a Saturn dealership or something and getting it fixed. Not fun times if you own a Saturn these days apparently.
Warranties are managed by third parties. As far as parts -- the parent companies make very little "original" parts. It all comes from suppliers.
 
Offloading unnecessary brands is a good idea. Demerging/selling/writing-off loss-making units is another good idea.

I still think the best long-term option for GM's survivial is bankruptcy and massive restructing, but it appears the board and the US government disagrees and prefers a patient on long-term life-support.
 
One thing American manufacturers always did well was build big cars. When I was in my 20's and early 30's (back in the 70's and early 80's) I used to always buy three or four year old big cars relatively cheap and drive them until they died. Cadillacs, Olds 98's, Park Avenues, Plymouth Furys, Chrysler Newports, even a big Ford LTD or two. They were inexpensive to operate, you could fix a lot of things on them yourself and they were great with kids and all the stuff you have to tote around for them.

And therein lies the problem, or at least part of it. American manufacturers were really slow to pick up on the fact that big cars are dying out, and they're not necessarily what people want any more. Yeah, it helped them corner the truck\SUV market, but they were totally leapfrogged by Asian and European manufacturers in the car market and are now playing catch-up.
 
One thing American manufacturers always did well was build big cars. When I was in my 20's and early 30's (back in the 70's and early 80's) I used to always buy three or four year old big cars relatively cheap and drive them until they died. Cadillacs, Olds 98's, Park Avenues, Plymouth Furys, Chrysler Newports, even a big Ford LTD or two. They were inexpensive to operate, you could fix a lot of things on them yourself and they were great with kids and all the stuff you have to tote around for them.

And therein lies the problem, or at least part of it. American manufacturers were really slow to pick up on the fact that big cars are dying out, and they're not necessarily what people want any more. Yeah, it helped them corner the truck\SUV market, but they were totally leapfrogged by Asian and European manufacturers in the car market and are now playing catch-up.

I have not noticed a large uptick in sales of smaller cars. SUVs sales slowed, but yet people aren't buying smaller cars in droves. The Ford Escort has had an increase in sales, yet the Ford F150 was still the best selling vehicle in 2008. This talk that Detroit doesn't make what people want is all BS, BS, and more BEE ESS. If any of that were true then Toyota and Honda would be the top sellers in the US.

The US market lacks diversity and still has to deal with the US consumer's thought process that WE MUST HAVE HUGE CARS. If that weren't true, why did Toyota redesign the latest Camry to be the biggest Camry ever produced?
 
^ You noticed that I considered the car and truck markets seperately, right? And let's not forget the Honda Civic; it's one of the USA's best-selling vehicles, and in Canada it's been the best-selling vehicle for the past 11 years. Maybe my view is coloured by being in Canada, where the SUV craze didn't catch on to anywhere near the same degree, but small cars certainly seem to be the biggest growth market right now.
 
^ You noticed that I considered the car and truck markets seperately, right? And let's not forget the Honda Civic; it's one of the USA's best-selling vehicles, and in Canada it's been the best-selling vehicle for the past 11 years. Maybe my view is coloured by being in Canada, where the SUV craze didn't catch on to anywhere near the same degree, but small cars certainly seem to be the biggest growth market right now.

Understood, and I didn't catch that. I'm just tired of people in the US screaming, "Oh, the car makers aren't making what people want" only to walk out into a parking lot at work, while shopping, or anywhere else that is a sea of SUV's and pickups :rolleyes: Yeah, a gun was put to your head when you purchased a vehicle.
 
Just like with Oldsmobile, GM decides to kill Saturn just when they're doing great. I wonder how Gm ever got in trouble, with those kinds of ideas?

GM is run by f-ing bastards, and I for one, hope they all go under. If this is the kinda shit they're gonna do, then let' em burn.

Instead of getting rid of GMC, or worse yet, following Cadillac's lead, and actually making cars people WANT, and that look like something other than shit, they go and kill off Saturn.

If I thought anyone would follow me, I'd call for a boycott of GM... I refuse to reward bad business choices by giving them my business, and any more of my hard-earned money.
 
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