RIP Saturn & Pontiac
- Thread starter Barbados Slim
- Start date
So Pontiac won't completely disappear? I'm glad to hear that -- I've been driving Sunfires since I was old enough to do so (I'm currently on my second). I find it handles pretty well, and overall is dependable -- although I will admit it's not great in excessive snow. I've gotten stuck once or twice, but fortunately I was able to dig myself out.
Although I am curious to what they mean by "niche brand".
I used to have a Saturn. It was sort of nice to look at, but it royally SUCKED as a winter driving car. Can't say I miss it much.
And Pontiac? People still have those?
I do. And it's more than a safe bet it's seen more ass than your ride.
Same here. LOVE my Pontiac. Would love to buy another one.
There is a better example.
The Chevy Trailblazer.
That same truck was/is still available as a Buick, Oldsmobile, GMC, and Isuzu.
My wife and I have been dedicated Saturn owners for many years. We both drive Vues currently. We've owned five total.
The cars have always been great, as has the service. They're easy to maintain, easy to drive, and have (had) great support from our local dealer (who went out of business about six months ago).
Bummer.
I read over at FoxNews.com that there IS a chance they could sell the Saturn brand or do something...but I am very sad about this.
Even sadder is that my economics professor 5 years ago saw all of this coming for the auto industry for all of these reasons.
The idiots that ran these companies in the ground should be held responsible.
I used to have a Saturn. It was sort of nice to look at, but it royally SUCKED as a winter driving car. Can't say I miss it much.
And Pontiac? People still have those?
I do. And it's more than a safe bet it's seen more ass than your ride.
Same here. LOVE my Pontiac. Would love to buy another one.
There is a better example.
The Chevy Trailblazer.
That same truck was/is still available as a Buick, Oldsmobile, GMC, and Isuzu.
Don't forget the Saab 9-7x, which is a Trailblazer with the ignition key in the floor.
I understand GMC is popular but there's nothing in their division that can't be offered by Chevy trucks.
For people that don't know Buick, it is the best selling American car brand in China, which is the number two car market in the world.
Saturn is no longer tv crap plastic cars from 90s. They're all Opels now. But they still aren't competitive. The Aura got good reviews but was a bomb and the Chevy Malibu stole it's thunder with better styling and refinement. The Vue is too heavy and gets awful economy, compared to the Ford Escape and Honda CRV. Plus the next Chevy Equinox will steal sales from it with great styling and a more powerful and more efficient engine. The Sky convertible looks nice but is no match for the Miata and Pontiac Solstice. The Astra is lost among the VW Golfs and Mazda3s that dominate the 5 door market. And the Outlook crossover is named after an email program and can be had as for better value as the Chevy Traverse or GMC Acadia. Saturn is a unique division but theirbesr wasn't good enough.
Really? I've driven a '92 Saturn for years through Central Ontario winters (and chances are wherever you live, the winters aren't as bad
), and it's been fantastic. FWD, snow tires and a standard transmission and it sticks to the road as well as any other car I've driven.Anyway, sad to see Saturn go. As mentioned, I drove one for years, and I've always found them to be GM's lone standout brand.
my '96 WS.6 Trans-Am and I would like to have a little chat with you
My Saturn was a coupe. It didn't have any of the things that you described. Definitely not a standard transmission (I never successfully learned how to drive one - I can only drive an automatic) or 4-wheel drive (the Vue is the only Saturn I'm aware of that offers it).
As for snow tires? My CR-V doesn't have them, but it DOES have 4-wheel drive.
Why in the hell are there so many brands that are just the same product with a different label? Man, the auto industry is messed up.
Most of the upper management responsible for running them into the ground don't even work for them anymore, whatcha gonna do? They've been run by hundreds of different executives over the years, it's as much a culture thing at a certain point as anything else, coupled with the way your predecessors have tied your hands. I can put the best driver in the world behind the wheel, but if the car is already on its way over the cliff....
GM has been the poster child of over-production, financial mismanagement and detrimental dealer-coddling for decades and while they are now building some very nice vehicles they obviously have a ways to go and deserve to be in the post they are. I'm not going to sit here and blame Rick Wagoner for their current problems when (if anything) he's done little but improve the company in the past couple of years.
I'd point out that Chrysler got money from the government in the 1980s, paid it back early, was profitable through the launch of the ground breaking LH-cars and right up their the "merger" with Daimler. You want to blame someone for turning Chrysler into a clusterfuck? Buy yourself a plane ticket to Deutschland.
Ford's a different story. They've gone through ups and downs of building mediocre to great vehicles but rarely truly "bad" ones. Much of their current predicament comes from the perception (mostly deserved) of poor quality caused by the massive amount of cost and feature cutting they did to their vehicles in the 1990s. Most people blame that on the decisions of a French asshole named Jacques Nassar. Too much cost cutting ended up costing them money. I'd say they are the least likely of the three to declare a bankruptcy.
Ford saw the writing on the wall about 5 years ago and started enacting changes. Heavy criticism was launched at Ford for shuttering plants and cutting a few models by people who thought Ford was cutting its own throat. It turns out that Ford was the smartest of the Big Three as it is "keeping in mind" the possibility of using government loans, but plans not to do so.
What people don't understand is like you and I both have stated about GM. Lavish obsessiveness went unchecked for decades and caught up in the last 10 years. Let the economic cycle run its course and if any of the companies has to cease business then so it shall be. There are too many cars in the world and people aren't buying new.
Hell, find me an entry level car under $15,000 in the US
I hate how they did all the badge whoring . . .
Chrysler Cirrus, Plymouth Breeze, Dodge Stratus
Chevy Blazer, GMC Jimmy, Oldsmobile Bravada, Buick Rainier
Dodge Neon, Plymouth Neon
Dodge Caravan, Chrysler Town and Country, Volkswagen Routan
Ford Contour, Mercury Mystique
Ford Taurus, Mercury Sable
the whole Eagle brand
of course I haven't kept up with the different brands lately so I have no idea how bad it is now, but the late 90s were really bad for badge engineered designs . . .
well look what we have here!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_badge_engineered_vehicles
Chrysler Cirrus, Plymouth Breeze, Dodge Stratus
Chevy Blazer, GMC Jimmy, Oldsmobile Bravada, Buick Rainier
Dodge Neon, Plymouth Neon
Dodge Caravan, Chrysler Town and Country, Volkswagen Routan
Ford Contour, Mercury Mystique
Ford Taurus, Mercury Sable
the whole Eagle brand
of course I haven't kept up with the different brands lately so I have no idea how bad it is now, but the late 90s were really bad for badge engineered designs . . .
well look what we have here!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_badge_engineered_vehicles
The problem is that people don't know automotive history. What you people call "badge whoring" came about by the automakers, very early on, trying to expand their brands for customer loyalty.
General Motors was a conglomerate by the efforts of Durant by buying up different companies and having them under one umbrella. People would start out in a basic Chevrolet and have the option of moving up the product line to a Pontiac, an Buick, an Oldsmobile, and finally a Cadillac. Much the same, Ford had the Ford, Mercury, and Lincoln lines (very briefly there was the Edsel Division) and Chrysler had merged with Plymouth and Dodge and still later bought the old American Motors (Nash) company.
Chrysler dropped the Plymouth nameplate in the late-1990's and Ford cut a few models.
Now, a lot of people think "oh cosmetic changes don't matter", but they do. Tooling on the line costs millions of dollars, and contrary to what people think, some parts won't interchange from a Silverado pickup to a GMC pickup. IMHO, drop one of the pickup lines. Hell, Ford and Dodge only have one line of pickup, so why does GM have two?
Bear in mind that in the 1980's and 1990's, when Ford, GM, and Chrysler all had good stock prices and plenty of cash, they all had agreements with other companies (Japanese) and went shopping. Ford bought Jaguar and Volvo to further expand their luxury division; GM bought Saab and Opel (that really goes back to the 1970's with Opel), and Chrysler had partnerships with Mercedes and Mitsubishi.
All of this talk about SAVE AMERICAN CARS is total BS. There hasn't been a true "American car" since the early 1970's. Also, are you considering your car/truck that was built in Canada to be an "American car"?
FWIW, my Dodge Ram was built in Mexico and it turns out that Mexican built Dodge pickups are better in quality than the one built in the US.
Right, thats why the local Saturn dealer can't keep Sky's on the lot. But, the local Chevy dealer has THREE count them THREE Solstices on the lot..
I"ll take a Redline any day of the week... The problem with Saturn is that went back under GM control.. Back in the day Sattys were the thing t have.. Until of course GM saw how well they were doing and pulled them back under.. Now they are just another GM brand...
Best thing they had was the VUE redline with the Honda V6 in it.. Smoking fast..
Plecostomus
Commodore
FWIW, my Dodge Ram was built in Mexico and it turns out that Mexican built Dodge pickups are better in quality than the one built in the US.
That's because they don't have a union.
Say you are running a robotic welder. You notice the parts are being aligned "slightly off center" by the upstream robot cell. Being a Good Union Person you follow the chain of command and by the time the message gets sent to the upstream assembly cell several dozen units have gone by. You can't reject the parts, you can't shut down the line, you can't even walk 20 feet upstream and tell the other operator that the parts are incorrect. That would mean you are doing the job of the "quality inspector," the "quality assurance manager" and the "line mechanic" who adjusts the machines. All you can do is sit there and continue to make less than quality cars until someone decides to fix the problem.
Now provided its not a glaring structural defect, safety issue or cosmetic problem 99% of problems get passed in order to ensure that everyone gets their quota bonus, the managers get their "scrap prevention" bonus and so on so forth.
Meanwhile down in Mexico, Pedro spots the defect on the line, stops the line, walks over to his buddy Javier who gets a wrench and adjusts the machine.
Now if you REALLY want to get into it... you the Union Worker... are getting paid $40 an hour to sit in a booth watching the machine and notify someone when something goes wrong. Pedro and Javier are getting far far less than that AND they have the authority to fix the issues that crop up.
Which is a better value overall?
I feel sorry for the impending cuts at these automakers... alot of good people are going to get axed and aren't going to find good paying jobs... but this is the reality of the situation.
All for worker protections but the way the Unions have jacked up wages and demanded lifetime benefits and stuff like that... that's what's killing us.
Is there a better way? Maybe. I honestly don't have an answer though.
FWIW, my Dodge Ram was built in Mexico and it turns out that Mexican built Dodge pickups are better in quality than the one built in the US.
That's because they don't have a union.
Say you are running a robotic welder. You notice the parts are being aligned "slightly off center" by the upstream robot cell. Being a Good Union Person you follow the chain of command and by the time the message gets sent to the upstream assembly cell several dozen units have gone by. You can't reject the parts, you can't shut down the line, you can't even walk 20 feet upstream and tell the other operator that the parts are incorrect. That would mean you are doing the job of the "quality inspector," the "quality assurance manager" and the "line mechanic" who adjusts the machines. All you can do is sit there and continue to make less than quality cars until someone decides to fix the problem.
Now provided its not a glaring structural defect, safety issue or cosmetic problem 99% of problems get passed in order to ensure that everyone gets their quota bonus, the managers get their "scrap prevention" bonus and so on so forth.
Meanwhile down in Mexico, Pedro spots the defect on the line, stops the line, walks over to his buddy Javier who gets a wrench and adjusts the machine.
Now if you REALLY want to get into it... you the Union Worker... are getting paid $40 an hour to sit in a booth watching the machine and notify someone when something goes wrong. Pedro and Javier are getting far far less than that AND they have the authority to fix the issues that crop up.
Which is a better value overall?
I feel sorry for the impending cuts at these automakers... alot of good people are going to get axed and aren't going to find good paying jobs... but this is the reality of the situation.
All for worker protections but the way the Unions have jacked up wages and demanded lifetime benefits and stuff like that... that's what's killing us.
Is there a better way? Maybe. I honestly don't have an answer though.
And thats why in this day and age Unions suck...
My dad was an automotive engineer and retired in 1983. He LOVED IT when unions went on strike, because that meant he worked overtime. Why? To design machines that would automate what was being done by union labor. To this day he laughs and chuckles knowing he put a lot of union workers out of workFWIW, my Dodge Ram was built in Mexico and it turns out that Mexican built Dodge pickups are better in quality than the one built in the US.
That's because they don't have a union.
Say you are running a robotic welder. You notice the parts are being aligned "slightly off center" by the upstream robot cell. Being a Good Union Person you follow the chain of command and by the time the message gets sent to the upstream assembly cell several dozen units have gone by. You can't reject the parts, you can't shut down the line, you can't even walk 20 feet upstream and tell the other operator that the parts are incorrect. That would mean you are doing the job of the "quality inspector," the "quality assurance manager" and the "line mechanic" who adjusts the machines. All you can do is sit there and continue to make less than quality cars until someone decides to fix the problem.
Now provided its not a glaring structural defect, safety issue or cosmetic problem 99% of problems get passed in order to ensure that everyone gets their quota bonus, the managers get their "scrap prevention" bonus and so on so forth.
Meanwhile down in Mexico, Pedro spots the defect on the line, stops the line, walks over to his buddy Javier who gets a wrench and adjusts the machine.
Now if you REALLY want to get into it... you the Union Worker... are getting paid $40 an hour to sit in a booth watching the machine and notify someone when something goes wrong. Pedro and Javier are getting far far less than that AND they have the authority to fix the issues that crop up.
Which is a better value overall?
I feel sorry for the impending cuts at these automakers... alot of good people are going to get axed and aren't going to find good paying jobs... but this is the reality of the situation.
All for worker protections but the way the Unions have jacked up wages and demanded lifetime benefits and stuff like that... that's what's killing us.
Is there a better way? Maybe. I honestly don't have an answer though.