How Plausible IS Fusion-Powered Warp Drive?

[Praetor]

Not that this doesn't come up every six months, but here goes again.

I had long thought that early warp vessels might have been powered by fusion, as keeping with the 'simple' nature of the Romulan bird-of-prey's propulsion systems from 'Balance of Terror.' When 'Enterprise' rolled around, I also thought that perhaps part of what made the NX series so revolutionary and fast/long ranged was that they were the first Earth-built ships with matter/antimatter reactors.

How plausible do my fellow Trek Techs find this notion and what are your takes on it?

And for fun a poll.

 

[JNG]

We don't have a lot of confirmation on it, but it seems plausible to me.

The fact that the damaged throttle assembly of the Phoenix was emitting theta radiation in ST: First Contact may have been intended to suggest that she was antimatter-powered, but I don't especially care for that idea myself.

 

[Sci]

Well, it wouldn't really be warp drive if it wasn't powered by a matter/anti-matter reaction, now would it? I'd be fusion drive.

It seems obvious to me that the whole point was the Cochrane had invented an engine that channelled the energy released through a matter/anti-matter collision to power the warp nacelles and allow for FTL travel. And I really don't see how fusion could produce the amount of energy you'd need for warp drive.

Besides, Scotty's line in "Balance of Terror" about the Romulan ship only having "simple impulse power" makes no sense, since we see the Enterprise chasing it at warp speeds. Even if we accept that the Romulan ship was sub-FTL, that doesn't imply anything about Romulan warp capacities in the 22nd Century -- that ship could easily have been transported within range of the Earth Outposts by a larger "mothership" that did have warp drive.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Well, it wouldn't really be warp drive if it wasn't powered by a matter/anti-matter reaction, now would it? I'd be fusion drive.

No, it would still be warp drive.

The key to warp drive isn't the power source, but the warp coils within the nacelles. As long as you've got something powerful enough to energize those warp coils, warp drive is possible regardless of the power source.

A matter/antimatter reaction seems to be the most common power source for a warp drive, but the Romulans use a quantum singularity and who knows what other non-Federation races use. The bottom line, however, is that they are merely the power sources for the electroplasma (or warp plasma) that are really used to energize the nacelles.

I do believe that fusion-powered warp drives are possible (and that Cochrane's Phoenix was fusion-powered too), but such powered warp ships will run out of energy far faster than their matter/antimatter counterparts and will have limited range and speed, IMO.

 

[Sci]

Well, it wouldn't really be warp drive if it wasn't powered by a matter/anti-matter reaction, now would it? I'd be fusion drive.

No, it would still be warp drive.

The key to warp drive isn't the power source, but the warp coils within the nacelles. As long as you've got something powerful enough to energize those warp coils, warp drive is possible regardless of the power source.

A matter/antimatter reaction seems to be the most common power source for a warp drive, but the Romulans use a quantum singularity and who knows what other non-Federation races use. The bottom line, however, is that they are merely the power sources for the electroplasma (or warp plasma) that are really used to energize the nacelles.

Which is all well and good, but whenever we've seen other energy sources for those coils, the drive systems have been given a different name. We've heard the Romulan system referred to as a quantum singularity drive, for instance, which is what makes me think that the very name "warp drive" implies an M/AM reaction.

I do believe that fusion-powered warp drives are possible (and that Cochrane's Phoenix was fusion-powered too), but such powered warp ships will run out of energy far faster than their matter/antimatter counterparts and will have limited range and speed, IMO.

The problem with the presumption that Cochrane used a fusion drive is that there's absolutely no indication in ENT that the fundamental energy production method was any different from what Cochrane had. In particular, "First Flight" seems to establish that the advancements in warp drive between 2063 and 2151 were the result of improvements in Cochrane's design, not a revolutionary new energy production mechanism for the warp coils.

 

[The Laughing Vulcan]

Bout as plausible as steam powered warp drive. It's a TV programme, they can do what they want. Remember Laas in DS9, he was a changeling that could travel faster than light without the aid of a starship.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Well, it wouldn't really be warp drive if it wasn't powered by a matter/anti-matter reaction, now would it? I'd be fusion drive.

No, it would still be warp drive.

The key to warp drive isn't the power source, but the warp coils within the nacelles. As long as you've got something powerful enough to energize those warp coils, warp drive is possible regardless of the power source.

A matter/antimatter reaction seems to be the most common power source for a warp drive, but the Romulans use a quantum singularity and who knows what other non-Federation races use. The bottom line, however, is that they are merely the power sources for the electroplasma (or warp plasma) that are really used to energize the nacelles.

Which is all well and good, but whenever we've seen other energy sources for those coils, the drive systems have been given a different name. We've heard the Romulan system referred to as a quantum singularity drive, for instance, which is what makes me think that the very name "warp drive" implies an M/AM reaction.

You're thinking of the quantum slipstream drive that was mentioned in VOY.

As far as the Romulans, were concerned, their engines were referred to as warp drives but that they used quantum singularities (rather than matter/antimatter reactions) to power them.

I do believe that fusion-powered warp drives are possible (and that Cochrane's Phoenix was fusion-powered too), but such powered warp ships will run out of energy far faster than their matter/antimatter counterparts and will have limited range and speed, IMO.

The problem with the presumption that Cochrane used a fusion drive is that there's absolutely no indication in ENT that the fundamental energy production method was any different from what Cochrane had. In particular, "First Flight" seems to establish that the advancements in warp drive between 2163 and 2151 were the result of improvements in Cochrane's design, not a revolutionary new energy production mechanism for the warp coils.

Which really kind of underscores my point really. The power source is kind of irrelevant, because the limitation was in the drive technology itself. It didn't matter if early Earth ships were fusion-powered, matter/antimatter-powered, or quantum singularity-powered, because those early warp engines still couldn't overcome the technical limitations that prevented Earth from attaining Warp 5 until the NX Program.

Given the sorry state Earth was in 2063, it's very likely that matter/antimatter power didn't come along until later.

 

[The Borg Queen]

I don't think fusion would be as energy-efficient as a matter/antimatter reaction.

Sure you'd get energy from fusing two hydrogen atoms into a single helium atom, but converting two hydrogen atoms into pure energy? That's like speed-of-light-squared times more powerful.

 

[EmperorTiberius]

Not that this doesn't come up every six months, but here goes again.

I had long thought that early warp vessels might have been powered by fusion, as keeping with the 'simple' nature of the Romulan bird-of-prey's propulsion systems from 'Balance of Terror.' When 'Enterprise' rolled around, I also thought that perhaps part of what made the NX series so revolutionary and fast/long ranged was that they were the first Earth-built ships with matter/antimatter reactors.

How plausible do my fellow Trek Techs find this notion and what are your takes on it?

And for fun a poll.

I always assumed that the bop traveled at impulse only when under cloak, and they were able to warp decloaked.

 

[JNG]

I don't think fusion would be as energy-efficient as a matter/antimatter reaction.

Sure seems like it wouldn't.

But I do think the power requirements for at least low warp don't seem to be so unimaginably high that Trek laser-induced fusion couldn't handle it in some plausible setup.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

I think I'll move this to Trek Tech

 

[Evil_Admiral]

It always seemed a giant leap of faith to assume that Cochrane, on a post-apocalyptic Earth, would be able to generate the amount of anti-matter needed to accomplish his warp flight, let alone the Lithium/di-lithium crystals needed to moderate the reaction. So fusion seemed to be the more likely power-source. And who is to say that Earth hadn't mastered economical (and compact) nuclear fusion by the mid 21st century? Plus, all you need is hydrogen and a power-source to provide the feeder energy to start the self-sustaining reaction.

Perhaps matter/antimatter power was relatively new to Earth by the time of the NX class, and most Star Fleet and civilian ships ran on fusion systems which just could not put out the energy needed for velocities higher than about warp 2 (and the Vulcans had perfected M/AM tech but weren't sharing). This would be a good way to bridge together the Star Fleet Museum chronology and the canon from Enterprise, and explain the difficulties in developing the engines capable of achieving Warp 3+. So by the time of the Earth-Romulan war in the late 2150's most Star Fleet ships were fusion powered (and relatively weak) with M/AM ships increasing at a slow rate (the NX and Daedalus classes). But since many ships were underpowered and (presumably) photonic torpedoes and phase cannons were economically prohibitive for a war-time economy, the war was fought with cheap and easy to produce "primitive atomic weapons".

Besides, Scotty's line in "Balance of Terror" about the Romulan ship only having "simple impulse power" makes no sense, since we see the Enterprise chasing it at warp speeds. Even if we accept that the Romulan ship was sub-FTL, that doesn't imply anything about Romulan warp capacities in the 22nd Century -- that ship could easily have been transported within range of the Earth Outposts by a larger "mothership" that did have warp drive.

I'm going to disagree. This is where I like the Star Fleet Museam chronology. It basically said that at the outset of the Earth-Romulan War, the Romulans were dependent upon fusion power and had not been able to perfect M/AM power (which later led to them pursuing singularity tech). So Scotty's line in BOT could be interpreted that the Romulan ship's main power was provided by fusion (which to Scotty might have seemed incredibly primitive by the 2260's), and that it was capable of low warp velocities.

 

[Praetor]

I think I'll move this to Trek Tech

Gah, sorry about that. I must have been more tired than I thought last night. I thought that was where I'd put it.

I've always been torn on interpreting the intention of Scotty's line in 'BoT.'

It seems to me that the BoP had to have warp drive, otherwise why the warp nacelles? The cut line referring to espionage resulting in the BoP's shape convinces me all the more that those must be warp engines and nothing else because of how closely they resemble those of the 'Enteprise.' So either the ship was running on impulse only while operating the cloak, or 'impulse' is just how Scotty was referring to their power plant.

Neither really precludes fusion-based warp, but the latter does seem to preclude matter/antimatter based warp. Somehow I doubt the Romulans had the artificial quantum singularity this early either (and I believe Rick Sternbach wrote a very good piece for the old Star Trek: The Magazine in which he explained some of how the Romulans ended up developing the quantum singularity powerplant.) Further, it was stated sometime in TNG or DS9 that the Romulan quantum slipstream core was less efficient still than M/AM Federation drives, so if the Romulans did have it in the 23rd century, what logical reason would there have been to give it up other than some kind of weird resource shortage?

The Phoenix is what really started to make me think that Earth started with fusion power... I just don't see Earth as having surplus antimatter and dilithium laying around for some recluse crackpot's experiments after a war that killed 600 million people. The NX being so 'special' and the catamaran/plasma accelerators just seems to dovetail nicely with this being the first Earth M/AM ship... one of the other Earth ships on 'Enterprise' had them. Other ships had the 'symmetric field governor' but not the accelerators, and I don't recall mention of non-NX class ships having matter/antimatter power (though there may have been and I missed it.)

 

[Myasishchev]

It's absolutely plausible. Far more plausible than an matter/antimatter power source on the Phoenix.

The Romulan bird-of-prey definitely had a fusion engine powering a warp drive. We know with near certainty it was faster than light. We know Scotty referred to its power source as impulse. We know impulse refers to the fusion engines that in Federation ships powers the fast-sublight propulsion system. Therefore, the BoP almost certainly had a fusion-powered warp drive.

In fact, I like to go even farther and interpret, unless someone can point me to irrefutable evidence to the contrary, that the NX-01 had a fusion engine. My rationale for this assumption is as follows:

1)The Earth-Romulan War was fought with atomic (which is clearly meant to be read as "thermonuclear") weapons;
2)An antimatter explosive is a better than a fusion device by a factor of well over a thousand assuming similar levels of efficiency (afaik it's the most efficient method of energy release physics even allows);
3)Given antimatter production on a scale able to support the NX-01, not to mention the allied Vulcan, Andorian, and Tellarite ships with similar performance and built in greater numbers, antimatter weapons would be used in preference to atomic ones;
4)Hence, my preferred interpretation is that the NX-01 used a fusion engine.

In some thread or other () Praetor pointed out some counterarguments to this line of reasoning, namely that antimatter might be so expensive in the 22nd century that ubiquitous use might be prohibited. Unfortunately, I disagree with this hypothesis. Firstly, very small amounts of antimatter need be used to be militarily useful, probably amounts significantly smaller than those needed to run a starship. Secondly, antimatter is so militarily useful that it would probably be preferable to employ it as a weapon than a fuel source. Like naval battles, most major combat in the Romulan War is likely to occur near solar systems, not in open space. Speed is surely far less useful than weapons that make nuclear bombs look like firecrackers.

If evidence from ENT contradicts this, I'm afraid I'll have to go with my fallback position, which is that the entire show was Riker playing a video game.

 

[USS Jack Riley]

Praetor - I put my $0.02 worth in on a similar subject not too long ago (and in this economy, $0.02 ain't what it used to be). Regarding Scotty's statement in BoT, I had always thought that the Bird of Prey being impulse only was a result of it basically being a gun platform. For FTL requirements, the ship attached to a larger mother ship that had warp drive capabilities.

Similar to the US A-10 aircraft. It is essentially an airframe wrapped around a big gun in the nose (even the nose landing gear is off center to make room for the gun).

I am going to have to watch the episode again, but it is also possible that the bird of prey is impulse only when cloaked (as may have been suggested above). Similar to she can only fire when not cloaked, she can only move at warp when not cloaked, due to the power requirements of the cloak.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Which is all well and good, but whenever we've seen other energy sources for those coils, the drive systems have been given a different name. We've heard the Romulan system referred to as a quantum singularity drive, for instance...

No, we've much more often heard it referred to as "warp drive." There's nothing in "warp" that implies matter OR antimatter, only the warping of space.

In particular, "First Flight" seems to establish that the advancements in warp drive between 2063 and 2151 were the result of improvements in Cochrane's design, not a revolutionary new energy production mechanism for the warp coils.

First of all, where did Cochrane get antimatter, or for that matter, dilithium? It can't be produced in large quantities with 21st century technology, and he sure as hell didn't have the means to contain it.

Secondly, IIRC, the NX Project was the brain child of Doctor Cochrane and John Archer's dad, which DOES imply a whole new power source.

Want to bet the reason the Boomers were limited to warp 1.8 is because their warp drives were fusion powered?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

1)The Earth-Romulan War was fought with atomic (which is clearly meant to be read as "thermonuclear") weapons;
2)An antimatter explosive is a better than a fusion device by a factor of well over a thousand assuming similar levels of efficiency (afaik it's the most efficient method of energy release physics even allows);
3)Given antimatter production on a scale able to support the NX-01, not to mention the allied Vulcan, Andorian, and Tellarite ships with similar performance and built in greater numbers, antimatter weapons would be used in preference to atomic ones;
4)Hence, my preferred interpretation is that the NX-01 used a fusion engine.

The Klingons were apparently using photon torpedoes at this time; we don't know for sure whether or not Klingon photon torpedoes at this time actually used antimatter, though given the surprise of Duras' weapons officer ("Antimatter warheads!") probably not.

The clincher here is whether or not the Enterprise is ever stated in dialog as having any actual antimatter on board as a fuel supply. If not, then the ship's warp core COULD be a glorified fusion reactor. The problem is I'm pretty sure there is at least one reference to "antimatter injectors" in dialog, which would nix that idea. More to the point: fusion-powered ships tend to have alot of fuel problems when using a fusion reactor to power warp drive, problems Enterprise does not seem to have.

Beyond that, your logic makes perfect sense... to the extent that anything that makes sense could be applied towards the plot logic of Enterprise.

 

[JuanBolio]

I'd vote both. I like Enterprise okay, but my own personal canon differs a bit.

The big problem with fusion reactors for drives is that they'd consume a lot of fuel. Probably 70% of the ships mass or so would be devoted to fuel, and the reactor would consume it rapidly. As for fusion reactors not being powerful enough to power warp flight - we'd need to know exactly how much power is needed to warp space and propel you beyond the speed of light to know that.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Juan, you know that depends on the technology you have and whatever magic materials you have on hand. If you don't have dilithium and warp coils, even antimatter wouldn't be sufficient; on the other hand if you have super-refined dilithium you could probably get warp two or better from a nine-volt battery.

 

[JuanBolio]

Right. We don't even know exactly what dilithium crystals DO, dude.

For my money, they convert the gamma rays produced by a M/AM reaction into usable power. That kind of thing wouldn't do a battery much good at all. Nor would it be very useful in a fusion reaction.

Your mileage may vary.