*~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

[joyofvgr]

Also, am I the only one who feels that having the Captain lust after her XO might have in particular in some ways undermined the cajones of our first female Captain? Now, I love Kathy, and I'm not saying they make her a woman in appearance only, or undermine her womanhood in any way, but out of respect for the character, I think it would have been a bad idea on the writers' part to actually have her have an intership relationship, with anyone, and in particular Chakotay.

I've already said I prefer post-Endgame J/C, for numerous reasons. However, I'm not sure why showing a long-term, loving relationship would be detrimental to KJs character where several less meaningful liasions didn't necessarily hurt Jimmy. Or is there something more to that?

I see issues of perceived favouritism and objectivity as more potentially problematic. She was engaged, twice if Mosaic counts, so we are supposed to see her as someone who has some investment in commitment and personal relationships. I like the J/C tension, and would have liked to see more. I would hope that a double standard was *not* the reason there wasn't more.

Well I think it's interesting that they gave Janeway this gorgeous xo, who was really a former Maquis Captain who agreed to the position. Not truly a subordinate as designated by Starfleet, but at first the enemy if you will. Then gave these characters sexual tension and finally hid behind protocol. Fine. So maybe not on the ship. But not at all? Not even when they got home? Interesting.

What if the roles were reversed and Chakotay was Captain and he captured Janeway, who was gorgeous and came on to him? I wonder how that would have played out. Would the male viewing audience see it as realistic that she would be appointed his OX and nothing at all happen for seven years?

 

[ria 75]

Hi guys. I once was a Me/Cer, is that all right too?
And, sure, much more of a J/Cer than a C/7er.

I wish they would have gone ahead with the original idea of having Chakotay be Janeway's lover on Quarra.

*sighs*

That would have been so effing great.

Agreed. It would have been quite an excitement.

 

[Jeri]

Anyway, I thought Seven's romantic side was set up in Unimatrix Zero...

I'm with you. Seven and Axum were hot; I loved it.

 

[leola]

I thought 7/Axum were a good couple. Despite 7s reservations, they seemed to have chemistry, which I did not ever see with C/7. I always wonder why the writers chose to have Seven's holo-Chak chopping carrots (which he hates cooked, according to Kellin) and preparing meat (which he doesn't eat). I hope they wanted us to catch those, and see it as part of the bigger "This is SO wrong" picture...

 

[JustKate]

I've made my way though most of the other Voyager threads so I thought I'd give this one a look. Now please don't stone me (and am I the only other guy in here other than, well, Guy?) but I have to chime in:

I don't think J/C was a good idea.

I also don't think C/7 was an idea at all, as much as filler inspired by 'Human Error' and expanded in 'Endgame' to fill a plot point.

I think the idea of building up tension between J/C and using it as a way of saying 'look, these people are on the other side of the galaxy under unique circumstances, and see how it's started to break them?' is a good idea, but if it becomes a full-blown relationship while they're onboard the ship, it negates that tension and is just a plain bad idea on the part of the characters.

Even though 'Lessons' showed that Starfleet is okay with this kind of thing (clearly leaving it up to the Captain's discretion - if he/she can command a starship, surely he/she can realize when it's a bad idea to have a relationship?) and here, on a ship with a crew of 150, where you might have to see these people for the next eighty years, no matter how much they were tempted, it would be a bad idea for the skipper to have an affair with her XO, or any of her crew. As the single decision-maker, it puts her in a very awkward situation should she have to chose between the person and the ship, particularly when that person is the XO and likely to be sent into dangerous situations in the Captain's stead.

Also, am I the only one who feels that having the Captain lust after her XO might have in particular in some ways undermined the cajones of our first female Captain? Now, I love Kathy, and I'm not saying they make her a woman in appearance only, or undermine her womanhood in any way, but out of respect for the character, I think it would have been a bad idea on the writers' part to actually have her have an intership relationship, with anyone, and in particular Chakotay.

Now what happens after they get home and they're no longer on the same ship or in the same direct chain of command? Admiral's discretion.

I agree, oh, at least 327 percent. I particularly like the point you made, Praetor, that not having a romantic relationship helps emphasize the dilemma faced by the entire crew (if I am paraphrasing you correctly here). J and C had the same dilemma that everyone who considers an affair with a coworker has, but to the nth degree. If it works out, there will be complications -- lots of them. If it doesn't work out, well...how horrible would that be?

I mean....aaaaaaauuuuuuugh! There's an old saying: "Don't sh1t where you eat." I'd say that's even more true if there's only one place to eat, because all the others are thousands of light years away.

They had to stay just friends, with, sure, an element of something more, until they got back to the dear old Alpha Quadrant. At least I think so. So I am extremely glad they did, at least as far as the canon is concerned.

And then, yeah -- admiral's discretion!

 

[Praetor]

I've already said I prefer post-Endgame J/C, for numerous reasons. However, I'm not sure why showing a long-term, loving relationship would be detrimental to KJs character where several less meaningful liasions didn't necessarily hurt Jimmy. Or is there something more to that?

Well my point was that it probably could work post-Endgame if you really want it to. But I think that the 'less meaningful liaisons' actually do hurt the character less - particularly when you look at it from the perspective of authority. I know some people are going to call a double-standard here, but Kirk often referenced how he was 'married to the ship' and limited his romances, while captain, to essentially one night stands, and with people who more often than not were not in his chain of command. He avoided Rand for that specific reason - his close working relationship to her. That's why I think J/C during 'Voyager' was a bad idea.

I see issues of perceived favouritism and objectivity as more potentially problematic. She was engaged, twice if Mosaic counts, so we are supposed to see her as someone who has some investment in commitment and personal relationships. I like the J/C tension, and would have liked to see more. I would hope that a double standard was *not* the reason there wasn't more.

I honestly don't know if there was a double-standard, but either way I feel that J/C tension is okay, but an actual relationship is not, for the myriad reasons listed above.

There's an old saying: "Don't sh1t where you eat." I'd say that's even more true if there's only place to eat, because all the others are thousands of light years away.

In a nutshell, that's exactly what I'm saying. And frankly, Chakotay would have been an idiot to have not realized this, even if Kathy didn't.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The true test of C/7 was natural law. How did they keep warm without bedding in that forest all night?

 

[Brit]

Ok I’ve watched this thread for a while and as a total J/Cer I think that the Captain and Chakotay would have had a relationship on Voyager. In fact I’ll go so far to say that they started one during “Resolutions” and the crew found out about it during “Basics”.

I think that with a journey of 70 years facing them anything else would have been unthinkable. It’s a well know fact that people in long term stable relationships are healthier both mentally and physically. So not only would Kathryn and Chakotay gotten home a couple, so would a lot of the rest of the crew. And there would have been a lot more children than Naomi.

There is no reason that Kathryn couldn’t be a captain and a wife and a mother. Women have been doing that for years. The notion that female captains should lead solitary, celibate lives is antiquated thinking.

Brit

 

[Praetor]

Ok I’ve watched this thread for a while and as a total J/Cer I think that the Captain and Chakotay would have had a relationship on Voyager. In fact I’ll go so far to say that they started one during “Resolutions” and the crew found out about it during “Basics”.

I agree that it's possible. I honestly don't know whether it did happen though. I rather hope not, but given the situation at the time of 'Resolutions', stranded with litte help of rescue, I don't see why it wouldn't be excusable. If it did happen, it would have been interesting to see the crew reacting to it.

I think that with a journey of 70 years facing them anything else would have been unthinkable. It’s a well know fact that people in long term stable relationships are healthier both mentally and physically. So not only would Kathryn and Chakotay gotten home a couple, so would a lot of the rest of the crew. And there would have been a lot more children than Naomi.

But would they really be driven to reach home in that scenario? And why would they really bring additional lives into existence to risk on a dangerous and possibly impossible voyage? The relationship factor is one thing; children are entirely another.

There is no reason that Kathryn couldn’t be a captain and a wife and a mother. Women have been doing that for years. The notion that female captains should lead solitary, celibate lives is antiquated thinking.

Personally, I don't question her ability to do both at once, but the wisdom of doing so; nor is the notion that female captains should lead solitary lives in question. It has nothing to do with her gender. Nothing whatsoever. I question the ability of Janeway (or any Captain - Kirk, Picard, Sisko, or that other guy) to do both when committed to a person who she may, at any given moment, have to order to die for the sake of the ship. That's why it should be avoided.

Would you be able to order your loved one to die? I know I wouldn't.

 

[JustKate]

^^ Ah, well, then I'm in the clear.
1. I don't think any captain of either sex should live a solitary life. And they don't, by the way. They are surrounded by friends and colleagues even in the distant reaches of the galaxy.
2. I don't think any captain of any sex should have to live a celibate life. I just don't think he or she should have sex or a romance with a member of his or her crew. Sex and romance are wonderful things. So is marriage. So is parenthood. But not with a member of the crew.
3. So as you can see, I take it a lot farther than the whole female captain thing. I don't think Picard should have romantic relationships with members of his crew (and yes, that includes Beverly). I don't think Kirk should. I don't think Sisko should. I don't think Archer should. Nobody should.
4. And I don't think any XO should have a romantic relationship with the captain, either.

So I guess that means I am even more of a traditionalist, more of a harda**, than you ever suspected!

A captain, particularly a captain whose crew is looks to her for every kind of leadership because all they have is each other, has to be...exemplary. Not just a good captain, but a great captain. And just as other great human beings sometimes have to say to themselves, "I have to put other people first," sometimes so does a captain, and I cannot think of a more pertinent example than Voyager's predicament.

 

[leola]

But would they really be driven to reach home in that scenario? And why would they really bring additional lives into existence to risk on a dangerous and possibly impossible voyage? The relationship factor is one thing; children are entirely another.

The length of their voyage would have meant that children would be a necessity, in order to be able to run the ship. And I think they would still have been driven to reach 'home', hoping to impart their knowledge. They were explorers. With families on board, a la Enterprise, the journey might have been more pleasant. Or horrific. But they would need replacement crew eventually

 

[Praetor]

Why?

I know initially they (I think hotpants Chakotay) themselves said they needed children (an issue that I don't really want to go into here), but by season five they probably only had thirty years left, having bypassed a lot of the journey thanks to Kes and the Borg.

If McCoy could live to be 137 and still rather spry, a product of 23rd century medicine, why would these products of 24th century medicine need children for a voyage of eighty years? Average crewmen seemed to be thirty, at most. How many crew did they need to run the ship? Forty? Fifty? A centenarian should have no problem functioning as a line officer given Federation medicine.

I guess the question really is shold they become a generational ship for an eighty year voyage? They seemed to think so, at least at first.

That said, even if there was no way to avoid having to have children, as captain, Janeway should still be responsible and sit that one out.

 

[Brit]

I think that with a journey of 70 years facing them anything else would have been unthinkable. It’s a well know fact that people in long term stable relationships are healthier both mentally and physically. So not only would Kathryn and Chakotay gotten home a couple, so would a lot of the rest of the crew. And there would have been a lot more children than Naomi.

But would they really be driven to reach home in that scenario? And why would they really bring additional lives into existence to risk on a dangerous and possibly impossible voyage? The relationship factor is one thing; children are entirely another.

I've thought about this one a lot, and the correlation I come up with is the expansion westward here in America during the 19th century. People went west in wagon trains, through harsh country, surrounded at times by other people that would have killed them if possible. You know what those wagon trains were filled with? Wives and children.

As to ordering a person you loved to die, well there were approximately 140 people on Voyager and after seven years those people had to be close. They were like family, you love people like that so yes she would have had to send them into danger on more than one occasion, not having a relationship would not have changed a thing.

One other thing, any rule that you decide to saddle her with has to extend to the senior staff who are in effect her foremen, so you are not just condemning one captain, you are in fact condemning at least five other people too.

And thanks for saying you didn't believe in any captain having a relationship. So often these arguments turn out to mean female captains and I shouldn't have assumed that's was what you meant.

Brit

 

[leola]

Maybe my numbers are skewed, but I thought they needed 3 shifts of 40-50 people, leaving few spare bodies.... not sure if it's mentioned in Caretaker? There's minimal reserve for those crew who die in the unlimited shuttles or elsewhere, become incapacitated (could happen) or ill with Delta Quadrant bugs the doc might not be able to cure, and no extras to call on for major repairs. The new recruits would need to be planned for years before they could be brought into active service. Thirty years is still a long time. Without replacements, if they lost 5 per year, the EMH would sail into SF alone!

I'm not saying the captain necessarily needed a family. Voyager was not intended to be a multigenerational ship, like Picard's Enterprise. Children onboard is not unheard of in ST, and I see it as plausible under the V crew's circumstances.

 

[Praetor]

I've thought about this one a lot, and the correlation I come up with is the expansion westward here in America during the 19th century. People went west in wagon trains, through harsh country, surrounded at times by other people that would have killed them if possible. You know what those wagon trains were filled with? Wives and children.

Oh, I understand that metaphor. I just don't see doing it on Voyager when this isn't a situation they've chosen to be in, unless as some suggested it was necessary as part of the flight, but even then it seems a stretch to believe that it's neccessary.

As to ordering a person you loved to die, well there were approximately 140 people on Voyager and after seven years those people had to be close. They were like family, you love people like that so yes she would have had to send them into danger on more than one occasion, not having a relationship would not have changed a thing.

Oh I agree there, I just don't think she should be that close to someone because of the loss of objectivity.

One other thing, any rule that you decide to saddle her with has to extend to the senior staff who are in effect her foremen, so you are not just condemning one captain, you are in fact condemning at least five other people too.

See, I may come off as a hypocrite for saying this but I disagree. I think Chakotay, perhaps, as XO, and maybe even Tuvok as second officer, but no further. The other officers aren't the head of the command chain and frankly aren't that likely to be saddled with such a decision on a regular basis, and ultimately the Captain is the Captain, and decision making must be her responsibility, particularly in this case.

And thanks for saying you didn't believe in any captain having a relationship. So often these arguments turn out to mean female captains and I shouldn't have assumed that's was what you meant.

Oh, absolutely.

For me, it's not a gender issue and never has been. The Captain, particularly when it comes to 'Star Trek' is a virtual island unto him/herself when it comes to decision-making and authority, and the need to be able to make clear decisions when necessary. I see this as something that would ultimately only complicate the ability to perform the job.

The only way I see gender coming into play here is my personal feeling that allowing or permitting such a relationship, for any reason, but particularly as a means of 'feminizing' her, is actually undermines her status as Trek's first female lead, and is something of a double standard. If it's a bad idea for Picard, with a full crew, in Federation space, on a ship of civilians, then it should by extension be a bad idea for Janeway. As a related example, I would point to what happened to Sisko when he lost his wife on the Saratoga. And Sisko was only the first officer.

At the very least, if J/C was to occur on 'Voyager,' these issues should have been addressed to make it fair, for Janeway and every other Captain.

Maybe my numbers are skewed, but I thought they needed 3 shifts of 40-50 people, leaving few spare bodies.... not sure if it's mentioned in Caretaker? There's minimal reserve for those crew who die in the unlimited shuttles or elsewhere, become incapacitated (could happen) or ill with Delta Quadrant bugs the doc might not be able to cure, and no extras to call on for major repairs. The new recruits would need to be planned for years before they could be brought into active service. Thirty years is still a long time. Without replacements, if they lost 5 per year, the EMH would sail into SF alone!

I'm not saying the captain necessarily needed a family. Voyager was not intended to be a multigenerational ship, like Picard's Enterprise. Children onboard is not unheard of in ST, and I see it as plausible under the V crew's circumstances.

You may very well be right on the numbers, leola, I haven't looked it up. And I don't mean to debate the issue of whether having children is a good idea, but I concede the point that it may be a necessary one given Voyager's situation. Even had they been hundreds of years from Earth, I still don't think that Janeway should start birthin' babies in any scenario. There would also have to be important checks in place to make sure that the kids got a proper education and rose through the ranks on merit so we wouldn't end up with a major case of nepotism. As we saw in 'Before and After,' even with the quick Ocampan lifespan, the senior staff seemed to be on the verge of intermarriage.

 

[Tachyon]

Hi guys. I once was a Me/Cer, is that all right too?
And, sure, much more of a J/Cer than a C/7er.

LOL @ Me/Cer!

It's alright for me. Tee hee.

 

[Tachyon]

Also, am I the only one who feels that having the Captain lust after her XO might have in particular in some ways undermined the cajones of our first female Captain? Now, I love Kathy, and I'm not saying they make her a woman in appearance only, or undermine her womanhood in any way, but out of respect for the character, I think it would have been a bad idea on the writers' part to actually have her have an intership relationship, with anyone, and in particular Chakotay.

Now what happens after they get home and they're no longer on the same ship or in the same direct chain of command? Admiral's discretion.

Kate Mulgrew would agree with you on that one. She really did not want Janeway to get involved with Chakotay and I think her reasoning was very similar with yours.

And Chakotay was not too keen to have a relationship with Seska, saying that it wouldn't work, so on some level he must have thought it would be a bad idea to get involved with Janeway too, no matter what he wanted or desired.

Well, once they are out of command structure, anything is possible. First time it happened in Resolutions, they (most likely) got down and dirty in that shelter of theirs. And once they are on Earth, they would most definitely be free to explore whatever is between them.

 

[Praetor]

Definitely. I'm relieved you understand my concerns, and glad to know Kate Mulgrew had them too.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Although only a series of Novels Captain Calhoun was sleeping with both his first Officer and the Nightwatch Commander which equates to being the "other" First officer in New Frontier. However one was recreational, while with his then former fiance, Mac was waiting for the again off again nature of their destined true love to come back into an active phase.

Picard kicked off that red head in Lessons who was making out with him. Maybe thats why the helm officer kept changing every week? Some one of a superior rank slept with them and then kicked them overboard? The sister, Leesa, from Mad About You, and the most eldest Sister from the Cosby Show being the dishiest I recall.

I'm wondering about Year of Hell? there was the cut scene where they made out, but since the writers knew it was all going to be wiped over, so much could have been made out of the two of them finding a little paradise during a year of hell.

 

[Tachyon]

I'm wondering about Year of Hell? there was the cut scene where they made out, but since the writers knew it was all going to be wiped over, so much could have been made out of the two of them finding a little paradise during a year of hell.

WOT?!

I have not heard about this one before!

Damn to all orinigal scirpts and cutted scenes!