I'm right there with you. Even though I can't see the "relationship" with Seven lasting to spacedock it was still awful to watch.
*~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*
- Thread starter Tachyon
- Start date
I'm right there with you. Even though I can't see the "relationship" with Seven lasting to spacedock it was still awful to watch.
Dunno... I loved "Human Error". It was not really C/7, but it was a beautiful epi, beginning with Seven playing Chopin, through her collapsing on the holodeck and ending with her awkward corridor chat with Chakotay... *sigh*
I really love that epi.
*ducks and dashes away*
I liked Human Error also, but it was a holostory. Fiction within fiction, so it was fine. I thought Seven and Chakotay made a beautiful looking couple. I also think they did have chemistry. That was never my issue with them. I just preferred J/C. I felt that the series, as early as Caretaker, was set up for that. I also thought there was more of a spark between Janeway and Chakotay. I also liked their backgrounds: Starfleet brat and Maquis bad boy. I know "Cliche" but I liked it anyway.
Human Error was ackward as were all the C/7 scenes in Endgame. I just cannot take Seven's romantic side seriously. I don't see it in her. She is not a romantic person in my eyes. Never has been, never will be.
And the contrast in Endgame when Chakotay was first in ready room with KJ and then on a picnic with Seven - wow. There was absolutely zero chemistry between Chakotay and Seven.
And the contrast in Endgame when Chakotay was first in ready room with KJ and then on a picnic with Seven - wow. There was absolutely zero chemistry between Chakotay and Seven.
I can't seem to get the multi-quote function to work, so forgive me for not answering individual questions.
Those of you who say "we have different viewpoints" are absolutely right. But I think this might be what some of that difference comes down to: In my view, and I'd say in the view of military organizations today, captains can't be ordinary people. And in fact, the good ones (and we all agree that Janeway is a good one) never are. That they achieved that rank means they have extraordinary talents, and it gives them a lot of power over their crew. But with that great talent and power comes great responsibility.
Janeway's responsibility was to her crew. Always. She knew that when she took the job. She accepted it. I would have thought less of her if she hadn't.
(And I think some of you would have, too - that's why you favor scenarios in which they admit and consumate those feelings under circumstances in which they weren't right there on Voyager. Now come on, admit it! Not saying that's the case for everybody, but I think it is for some of you.)
And by the way, if we're going to take what was shown on the screen as canon, which I certainly do, apparently Janeway and Chakotay agreed with me. They didn't act on their feelings, or if they did, we didn't find out about it. So I've got at least a couple of heavy-hitters on my side.
It isn't only captains - or career people - who have to make such decisions. Lots of people make similar choices for similar reasons: They have responsibilities (to ailing children, to aging parents, to their religious observances - whatever), and those responsibilities take precedence, at least for a while, over romance, love, marriage, etc.
And let me say one more time that I have no problem with J/C once they get back home. That would be a far more statisfying conclusion than C/7. Nuthin' against Seven, but as somebody said (Kimc, maybe), the main reaction that drew from me wasn't "Oh, how nice that they found each other!" but was instead "What the...?"
Those of you who say "we have different viewpoints" are absolutely right. But I think this might be what some of that difference comes down to: In my view, and I'd say in the view of military organizations today, captains can't be ordinary people. And in fact, the good ones (and we all agree that Janeway is a good one) never are. That they achieved that rank means they have extraordinary talents, and it gives them a lot of power over their crew. But with that great talent and power comes great responsibility.
Janeway's responsibility was to her crew. Always. She knew that when she took the job. She accepted it. I would have thought less of her if she hadn't.
(And I think some of you would have, too - that's why you favor scenarios in which they admit and consumate those feelings under circumstances in which they weren't right there on Voyager. Now come on, admit it! Not saying that's the case for everybody, but I think it is for some of you.)
And by the way, if we're going to take what was shown on the screen as canon, which I certainly do, apparently Janeway and Chakotay agreed with me. They didn't act on their feelings, or if they did, we didn't find out about it. So I've got at least a couple of heavy-hitters on my side.
It isn't only captains - or career people - who have to make such decisions. Lots of people make similar choices for similar reasons: They have responsibilities (to ailing children, to aging parents, to their religious observances - whatever), and those responsibilities take precedence, at least for a while, over romance, love, marriage, etc.
And let me say one more time that I have no problem with J/C once they get back home. That would be a far more statisfying conclusion than C/7. Nuthin' against Seven, but as somebody said (Kimc, maybe), the main reaction that drew from me wasn't "Oh, how nice that they found each other!" but was instead "What the...?"
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I can't believe I am once again defending C/7. This time in a J/C thread of all places (*kicks self*)
Anyway, I thought Seven's romantic side was set up in Unimatrix Zero. I think once she found out that she once had romantic feelings for someone and remembered what that felt like she was anxious to explore them again. That being said, I always saw C/7 as a temporary fling and assumed Seven would be the one to move on.
Anyway, I thought Seven's romantic side was set up in Unimatrix Zero. I think once she found out that she once had romantic feelings for someone and remembered what that felt like she was anxious to explore them again. That being said, I always saw C/7 as a temporary fling and assumed Seven would be the one to move on.
C/7 doesn't seem realistic at all to me. I know opposites attract, but the differences between those two are just too big for me. He's a deeply spiritual person and she's more logical and rational than emotional and spiritual.
I thought she was an interesting character to begin with though and was glad for the change. They just didn't develop her and use her the way they 'should', but then that goes for most of the characters if not all.
I thought she was an interesting character to begin with though and was glad for the change. They just didn't develop her and use her the way they 'should', but then that goes for most of the characters if not all.
Not even that as much as I think he would have been happy with Seven. She seemed to care about him and attended to his needs. He seemed delighted by her picnic for example. However, she was young and I think once back on Earth many new possibilities would have opened up for her. In Course Oblivion, the other Seven stated that Monogomy was illogical. I think the real Seven would have thought the same way back on Earth and rightly so. At least until she found someone who was truly her equal. Let's face it, Chakotay is handsome and nice, but really not for Seven.
Janeway on the other hand has lived life. She's been around and had two significant others. She would be in more of a position to know what she wants. I think once she was with Chakotay he would make her very happy and attend to her needs. He seemed to be that type and would be good for her. His quiet strength balanced her quite well.
Well, that's the thing. I never really warmed up to this Seven/Axum thing, as I did not warm up to Seven/Doctor either. I just have hard time imaging Seven in love. I just cannot see it. And even though there are wonderfully written C/7 fanfic, for instance, (teya coming to my mind first, since she is a rare of her kind), I still cannot see it and therefore the credibility of the story suffers for me.
^^ In this thread - I mean, I knew when I started that I'd be in quite the minority - I'll take my validations where I can get 'em.
*huggles* since you dont have a hug smiley here.
As someone said earlier, we might not agree, but it's through disagreements that we grow and sometimes see things in a different light.
I've made my way though most of the other Voyager threads so I thought I'd give this one a look. Now please don't stone me (and am I the only other guy in here other than, well, Guy?) but I have to chime in:
I don't think J/C was a good idea.
I also don't think C/7 was an idea at all, as much as filler inspired by 'Human Error' and expanded in 'Endgame' to fill a plot point.
I think the idea of building up tension between J/C and using it as a way of saying 'look, these people are on the other side of the galaxy under unique circumstances, and see how it's started to break them?' is a good idea, but if it becomes a full-blown relationship while they're onboard the ship, it negates that tension and is just a plain bad idea on the part of the characters.
Even though 'Lessons' showed that Starfleet is okay with this kind of thing (clearly leaving it up to the Captain's discretion - if he/she can command a starship, surely he/she can realize when it's a bad idea to have a relationship?) and here, on a ship with a crew of 150, where you might have to see these people for the next eighty years, no matter how much they were tempted, it would be a bad idea for the skipper to have an affair with her XO, or any of her crew. As the single decision-maker, it puts her in a very awkward situation should she have to chose between the person and the ship, particularly when that person is the XO and likely to be sent into dangerous situations in the Captain's stead.
Also, am I the only one who feels that having the Captain lust after her XO might have in particular in some ways undermined the cajones of our first female Captain? Now, I love Kathy, and I'm not saying they make her a woman in appearance only, or undermine her womanhood in any way, but out of respect for the character, I think it would have been a bad idea on the writers' part to actually have her have an intership relationship, with anyone, and in particular Chakotay.
Now what happens after they get home and they're no longer on the same ship or in the same direct chain of command? Admiral's discretion.
I don't think J/C was a good idea.
I also don't think C/7 was an idea at all, as much as filler inspired by 'Human Error' and expanded in 'Endgame' to fill a plot point.
I think the idea of building up tension between J/C and using it as a way of saying 'look, these people are on the other side of the galaxy under unique circumstances, and see how it's started to break them?' is a good idea, but if it becomes a full-blown relationship while they're onboard the ship, it negates that tension and is just a plain bad idea on the part of the characters.
Even though 'Lessons' showed that Starfleet is okay with this kind of thing (clearly leaving it up to the Captain's discretion - if he/she can command a starship, surely he/she can realize when it's a bad idea to have a relationship?) and here, on a ship with a crew of 150, where you might have to see these people for the next eighty years, no matter how much they were tempted, it would be a bad idea for the skipper to have an affair with her XO, or any of her crew. As the single decision-maker, it puts her in a very awkward situation should she have to chose between the person and the ship, particularly when that person is the XO and likely to be sent into dangerous situations in the Captain's stead.
Also, am I the only one who feels that having the Captain lust after her XO might have in particular in some ways undermined the cajones of our first female Captain? Now, I love Kathy, and I'm not saying they make her a woman in appearance only, or undermine her womanhood in any way, but out of respect for the character, I think it would have been a bad idea on the writers' part to actually have her have an intership relationship, with anyone, and in particular Chakotay.
Now what happens after they get home and they're no longer on the same ship or in the same direct chain of command? Admiral's discretion.
I've already said I prefer post-Endgame J/C, for numerous reasons. However, I'm not sure why showing a long-term, loving relationship would be detrimental to KJs character where several less meaningful liasions didn't necessarily hurt Jimmy. Or is there something more to that?
I see issues of perceived favouritism and objectivity as more potentially problematic. She was engaged, twice if Mosaic counts, so we are supposed to see her as someone who has some investment in commitment and personal relationships. I like the J/C tension, and would have liked to see more. I would hope that a double standard was *not* the reason there wasn't more.
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