1701-E - Has the romance between Picard and the Enterprise died?

[Christopher]

It's strange for me to think that Picard's been on the E for twice as long as he was on the D.

The voyage of the Galaxy Class Enterprise was 7 years....He's been on the Soveriegn one for 14 or more.

He was CO of the D for 8 years and it's pretty the same for the E if not nearer 9 years now, but no way has it been 14 years.

In story time, Picard captained the D from 2364-71, about 7.5 years, and the E from mid-2372 to early 2381, nearly 9 years as of the latest novels. In real time, however, the D was around from TNG's premiere in 1987 to GEN in 1994, 7 years, while the E has been around since FC, which came out in 1996, a little over 12 years ago.

 

[DimesDan]

It's strange for me to think that Picard's been on the E for twice as long as he was on the D.

The voyage of the Galaxy Class Enterprise was 7 years....He's been on the Soveriegn one for 14 or more.

He was CO of the D for 8 years and it's pretty the same for the E if not nearer 9 years now, but no way has it been 14 years.

In story time, Picard captained the D from 2364-71, about 7.5 years, and the E from mid-2372 to early 2381, nearly 9 years as of the latest novels. In real time, however, the D was around from TNG's premiere in 1987 to GEN in 1994, 7 years, while the E has been around since FC, which came out in 1996, a little over 12 years ago.

I was thinking in story time and not actual real time.

 

[LightningStorm]

This thread makes me want to quote Tuvok.

I have never understood the human compulsion to emotionally bond with inanimate objects. This vessel has done nothing. It is an assemblage of bulkheads, conduits, tritanium, nothing more.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I think in TOS you not only had Kirk who had a strong bond with the Enterprise, but Scotty as well. He was fiercely proud of his ship and frequently complained when it was pushed to its limits. Of course, in "The Trouble With Tribbles", Scotty took much more offense to the Klingons insulting the Enterprise than Kirk...

Together, Kirk and Scotty anthropomorphized the Enterprise enough to the point where the ship felt like a character itself (or herself to emphasize the point). I don't know if it's a case that we live in supposedly more politically correct times, but I think TNG-onward have mostly depicted a ship more as merely a vehicle to get them to their destinations and only rarely refer to them as a she.

 

[jezor]

Another point to consider is that, as per recent novels, Picard hasn't been entirely "himself" since being Borgified the first time. Even if he had been otherwise likely to fall in love with the Enterprise-E, perhaps his mental anguish and discomfort have kept him from doing so.

More likely, though, is that Picard (like Sisko) is more capable of mature, rich human love relationships than was Kirk. That capacity would lead Picard to be more invested in his crew than in the ship around him, particularly in his later, more adult years. Kirk, on the other hand, has never been shown to be closer to a romantic partner than to his ship. (His relationships with Spock and McCoy, slashfic aside, are clearly intimate, but in a different way that does not demonstrate a capacity for romantic love.)

In the end, one may speak of "boys and their toys," but Picard was far from a boy when he took command of the Enterprise-D, and even less so (between his real life and those embedded within his consciousness by floating space probes carrying musical instruments) when he took the center chair on the Enterprise-E. {ProfJonathan}

 

[Christopher]

I think Roddenberry's original intent for Picard (and maybe Gerrold's, Fontana's, and/or Justman's intent too) was that he was a captain who'd already had his "Kirk" phase decades earlier -- that the Stargazer was where he'd been the young hotshot captain performing great feats, and that since then he'd matured into an admired veteran, a mentor figure for the new generation of hotshot officers represented by Riker. So he was kind of supposed to be what an older Kirk would've been if Kirk had actually matured and settled down as he seemed to be doing in TWOK, rather than going all midlife-crisis and becoming even more of a renegade like in the later movies.

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

Considering Picard said essentially that the Stargazer was more important to him in many ways in Relics, I have to agree that she was his 'first love' and as Scotty said, "You don't ever love a woman quite like that again."

I wouldn't go to the extent of saying that Picard looked at the 1701-D as a mere tool, however. Admittedly, I may be reading into it, but he certainly had an affectionate moment with the ship before he left the bridge at the beginning of Starship Mine. Still, it does appear to be quite clear that he never felt for the Enterprise-D what Kirk apparently felt for the 1701.

Exactly - that first command always means more than any other to a captain. It's like they said about first loves - you may grow apart and fall in love with someone else, but that first love is always with you, a part of you, even decades after it ended. The Stargazer was Picard's first. The D was his second, and while he may have felt affection for her, it was never really the same as what he felt for the Stargazer.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Kirk was really the only (hero character) captain who had that ultra strong bond with his ship. Not that the others didn't care, because many times we see that they obviously do.. It was just focused on more with Kirk and more of an intregal part of his personality.

I would submit that Sisko felt the same way about the Defiant.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

I think in TOS you not only had Kirk who had a strong bond with the Enterprise, but Scotty as well. He was fiercely proud of his ship and frequently complained when it was pushed to its limits. Of course, in "The Trouble With Tribbles", Scotty took much more offense to the Klingons insulting the Enterprise than Kirk...

Together, Kirk and Scotty anthropomorphized the Enterprise enough to the point where the ship felt like a character itself (or herself to emphasize the point).

By the same token, so did the writers, if only because of "script immunity". The Enterprise survived countless battles and hazzards that blew other starships (even E's sister ships) right out of the sky...

 

[Dayton Ward]

I can appreciate a ship, a car, whatever but first of all it is a tool which job it is to take me - or the crew - from A to B.

Well, men have similar feelings about shoes, so it's a wash, I guess

 

[darkwing_duck1]

This thread makes me want to quote Tuvok.

I have never understood the human compulsion to emotionally bond with inanimate objects. This vessel has done nothing. It is an assemblage of bulkheads, conduits, tritanium, nothing more.

Yeah, well Tuvok can kiss my non-Vulcan tuchus...Spock seemed to have no problems understanding

Kirk - "Evaluation of M-5 performance. It'll be necessary for the log."

Spock - "The ship reacted more rapidly than human control could have maneuvered her. Tactics, deployment of weapons all indicate an immense sophistication in computer control."

Kirk - "Machine over man, Spock? It was impressive. It might even be practical..."

Spock - "Practical, Captain? Perhaps ...but not desirable. Computers make excellent and efficient servants, but I have no wish to serve under them. A starship also runs on loyalty...to one man, and nothing can replace it or him."

- Kirk and Spock, "The Ultimate Computer"

And from the same episode:

Kirk - "Do you know the one: 'All I ask is a tall ship'?"

McCoy - "It's a line from a poem. A very old poem, isn't it?"

Kirk - "20th century Earth. 'All I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer it by'. You could feel the wind at your back in those days...the sounds of the sea beneath you. Even if you take away the wind and the water, it's still the same: The ship is yours. You can feel her...and the stars are still there, Bones."

- Kirk and McCoy, "The Ultimate Computer"

I know a few people from families with naval traditions and have read the accounts of others...your ship is more than your transportation...it's your home. The crew becomes your family in a lot of ways.

 

[MMCL]

Nice point there - another thing worth mentioning is that Picard wasn't particularly close to his 'family' until S7. That may have been a factor in that the D wasn't his home just as the crew weren't really his family.

He was a very reserved man, and it was a very different era for Star Trek captains.

 

[Nardpuncher]

He was CO of the D for 8 years and it's pretty the same for the E if not nearer 9 years now, but no way has it been 14 years.

In story time, Picard captained the D from 2364-71, about 7.5 years, and the E from mid-2372 to early 2381, nearly 9 years as of the latest novels. In real time, however, the D was around from TNG's premiere in 1987 to GEN in 1994, 7 years, while the E has been around since FC, which came out in 1996, a little over 12 years ago.

I was thinking in story time and not actual real time.

Sorry, I hadn't really been paying attention to the dates in the Trekverse. I thought that since First Contact came out 12-13 years ago and that Picard had the ship already before that then it was baout 14 years. That's kind of the way they did it on the TV show.

 

[Desert Kris]

I have never understood the human compulsion to emotionally bond with inanimate objects. This vessel has done nothing. It is an assemblage of bulkheads, conduits, tritanium, nothing more.

This quote makes me think of a line from a Harry Mudd episode, the one with the androids, when Kirk says, "No, she's a beautiful lady, and we love her!" One of the most memorable lines from the show, for me.

I think Roddenberry's original intent for Picard (and maybe Gerrold's, Fontana's, and/or Justman's intent too) was that he was a captain who'd already had his "Kirk" phase decades earlier -- that the Stargazer was where he'd been the young hotshot captain performing great feats, and that since then he'd matured into an admired veteran, a mentor figure for the new generation of hotshot officers represented by Riker.

It's fascinating to consider that Picard's character is meant to represent where Kirk would have been in terms of character growth further along in his life. Neat perspective, thanks for sharing that!

 

[Christopher]

Sorry, I hadn't really been paying attention to the dates in the Trekverse. I thought that since First Contact came out 12-13 years ago and that Picard had the ship already before that then it was baout 14 years. That's kind of the way they did it on the TV show.

And it was the way they did it in the TNG movies, pretty much; the intervals between films in story time corresponded roughly to the intervals in real time. But NEM came out over six years ago, and since then the books have only advanced about two years in story time, since there's no need for the books to conform to the actors' aging or the like.

It's fascinating to consider that Picard's character is meant to represent where Kirk would have been in terms of character growth further along in his life. Neat perspective, thanks for sharing that!

Well, it's more that Picard had formerly been like Kirk than that Kirk would've turned into Picard. I was just using older Kirk's potential as an approximate analogy there, rather than suggesting that Roddenberry himself intended it in those terms.

 

[Marcus Porcius Cato]

I always had a sense that there was a strong relationship between the captains of the Enterprises and their ships. With Kirk, it almost seemed to be romantic at times. Certainly, the musical theme for the Enterprise (e.g., in ST:TMP) was practically a love theme at times.

Picard also seemed to have a similar love for the Enterprise-D at times, although his feelings for the ship didn't seem to be quite what Kirk's had been. Contrast Picard's reaction to losing the Ent-D to Kirk's reaction to losing the Ent at the Genesis planet. Picard even said something to the extent that he cared more for the Stargazer than the Ent-D when he was talking to Scotty in 'Relics'.

My feeling throughout the movies and novels set post-Generations is that Picard doesn't look at the Enterprise-E quite the same way as he used to look at her predecessor. To me, it seems like an essential relationship - that of the Captain and his Ship - has either disappeared or never evolved with the Enterprise-E. I rather miss the moments where the Captain would give a gentle squeeze to the armrest of his chair during a battle and 'think' to the ship, "Come on, hang in there for one more minute." Sure, it was maybe more of a Kirk thing, but I've seen it there with Picard too.

Maybe I'm being too sentimental, but I've always felt that the Captain should be married to his ship to some degree - that the relationship used to be something more than just a man and a vehicle. I think that's one of the things missing from the stories of the Enterprise-E: I don't see anyone in love with her.

Does anyone else have any thoughts on this? Is it just me?

I do not view that as Healthy but obsessive and in all, rather disturbing. A ship is a ship, and a tool, nothing more.

This reminds of Shanterverese Kirk whose obession with Enterprise seemed to be more valuable than his friendship with his officers...

 

[Leandar]

Well, it's more that Picard had formerly been like Kirk than that Kirk would've turned into Picard. I was just using older Kirk's potential as an approximate analogy there, rather than suggesting that Roddenberry himself intended it in those terms.

Didn't Gene or someone close to Gene once say that Kirk's character was pretty much split up into both Picard and Riker where Riker was the young, brash hotshot commander (essentially a Kirk-in training) and Picard was the essence of Kirk's superb leadership capabilities? And that it also kept either character from becoming too dominating as Kirk had seemed to do?

 

[Stephen!]

Yeah, well Tuvok can kiss my non-Vulcan tuchus...Spock seemed to have no problems understanding

It probably has something to do with Spock being half-human, while Tuvok was fully Vulcan.

 

[Christopher]

Yeah, well Tuvok can kiss my non-Vulcan tuchus...Spock seemed to have no problems understanding

It probably has something to do with Spock being half-human, while Tuvok was fully Vulcan.

Or maybe it has to do with the fact that they're individuals, not racial stereotypes. Something like this would be a matter of life experience and personal values and attitudes. That's got nothing to do with genetics.

 

[Scout101]

Kirk was really the only (hero character) captain who had that ultra strong bond with his ship. Not that the others didn't care, because many times we see that they obviously do.. It was just focused on more with Kirk and more of an intregal part of his personality.

Janeway and Voyager were a lot like this, as well...