Was the Dominion hell-bent on war?

[Jono]

There's a bedtime story at the end? That seems so out of place! (I'm on page a hundred and something...) So weird...

Ah Tain... You'd think after all the trouble they caused the Romulans would side with the Federation cuz... I dunno... part of the war was their fault??

Why would the Romulans want to help the Federation or the Klingons, they dislike both powers? You wouldn't, at least not straight away. You let all the sides beat the crap out of each other and you choose the side that either hasn't betrayed you or looks like they will definitely win and you jump in and grab whatever you can out of the deal.

 

[Anika Hanson]

I think the Dominion would have gone to war eventually but their encounters with the federation/AQ species accelerated the war. I think, due to their paranoia they wanted to dominated the other life forms. I think through domination they felt safer.

 

[Marie1]

There's a bedtime story at the end? That seems so out of place! (I'm on page a hundred and something...) So weird...

Ah Tain... You'd think after all the trouble they caused the Romulans would side with the Federation cuz... I dunno... part of the war was their fault??

Why would the Romulans want to help the Federation or the Klingons, they dislike both powers? You wouldn't, at least not straight away. You let all the sides beat the crap out of each other and you choose the side that either hasn't betrayed you or looks like they will definitely win and you jump in and grab whatever you can out of the deal.

Unless the Romulans were complete idiots, and I'm not saying they aren't, though I realize they're coloured by delusions of superiority, they would know the Federation is a lesser evil than the Dominion, especially after the attack on the Homeworld. The fate the Founders had for Cardassia would be shared by the Romulans. And how on earth would they fight the Dominion if the Dominion got practically half the galaxy?

 

[Myasishchev]

Unless the Romulans were complete idiots, and I'm not saying they aren't, though I realize they're coloured by delusions of superiority, they would know the Federation is a lesser evil than the Dominion, especially after the attack on the Homeworld. The fate the Founders had for Cardassia would be shared by the Romulans. And how on earth would they fight the Dominion if the Dominion got practically half the galaxy?

The Romulans' hesitation is more evidence for my hypothesis that, objectively, the Dominion had been decisively beaten after the Prophets closed the wormhole to their military traffic. The Romulans, not being idiots, would have joined the war earlier if the Federation and Klingons had been faltering significantly. Only subjectively, from the eyes of Sisko, Ross, and other people who might die in it, does the Dominion War look like a more closely contested engagement. This is much like World War II, at the time, seemed a lot more nearly run than, in hindsight, we know it was.

As for who started the war, I wonder how this will fly: Vreenak was right. Sisko started the war. He committed an act of war by blockading the Dominion's lines of communications to its own territory. I'm not questioning the correctness of this decision, but rather its diplomatic effect.

Alternate firestarters:

The captain of the Odyssey--violated Dominion space with a Federation battleship.
Sisko again--violated Dominion space in a cloaked Federation warship.
Tain, Obsidian Order, and elements of the Tal Shiar--tried to commit a counterpower strike against the Dominion, throwing a little genocide into the bargain.
Sisko again--violated Dominion space with a Federation warship during the same attack on the Founders' homeworld, destroyed Dominion vessels in the process.
Gowron--unchecked aggression against Cardassia, Dominion subject. Possibly instigated by Changeling Martok however, but Gowron didn't need much help.

Assume for a moment the Dominion isn't automatically evil, and it's hard to see how they couldn't have considered the Alpha Quadrant an existential threat. They were invaded by every major power, except the Klingons, and first.

 

[Marie1]

The Federation didn't even know about the Dominion! But clearly the Dominion just started blowing their ships instead of contacting them and saying, hey, you're in our boarders. Here's a map. Don't go past here, or here...

Once Talak'talon kidnapped Sisko and co, I see no reason why the Odyessy wasn't justified in going in to get him.

Though I do agree that the OO/TS thing was out of line.
I think Sisko could have worked wonders by warning the Founders of the OO/TS plot. Even though the Founders were using the attack, the Federation may have gotten on their good side.

I don't think the Dominion is evil- but it is run by paranoid, prejudiced people with superiority complexes... with genetically engineered soldiers. And the Federation was right to block them off when they started filling Cardassian space in an obvious military build up with another power who also wanted to take over the AQ.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

The Federation didn't even know about the Dominion! But clearly the Dominion just started blowing their ships instead of contacting them and saying, hey, you're in our boarders. Here's a map. Don't go past here, or here...

Yeah, I think that would've been the RIGHT thing to do. Personally, I think that the Federation would've been annoyed but would've obeyed if that's the reception they'd gotten. After all, I'm sure there would still have been a tremendous amount of space to explore in a safer direction.

(Though one wonders, with the Founders' paranoia, how long it would have taken them to deliberately provoke an incident.)

Once Talak'talon kidnapped Sisko and co, I see no reason why the Odyessy wasn't justified in going in to get him.

Though I do agree that the OO/TS thing was out of line.
I think Sisko could have worked wonders by warning the Founders of the OO/TS plot. Even though the Founders were using the attack, the Federation may have gotten on their good side.

As to why they didn't...here's what might've been going through Sisko's mind. He probably thought he could collapse the wormhole if things got bad, seal the Dominion in and not have to worry about them for another 60/70 years. But the Federation would have to live with the Romulans and Cardassians for all that time. He may well have thought, from a strictly pragmatic standpoint, that it was more important to keep from angering the powers right in the Federation's backyard.

Though I DO see your point and wonder what would've happened if Sisko had done that.

I don't think the Dominion is evil- but it is run by paranoid, prejudiced people with superiority complexes... with genetically engineered soldiers. And the Federation was right to block them off when they started filling Cardassian space in an obvious military build up with another power who also wanted to take over the AQ.

I don't know...that sounds pretty much like evil to me. Yes, the Founders had been hurt--but they're responsible for their own decisions regardless of what's done to them from the outside, and especially at the ages they seem to be (the 100 aside), they should know better.

 

[Thor Damar]

I think several counts of GENOCIDE and starting several wars in the AQ which cost the lives of Billions makes the Dominion pretty bloody evil to me.

As to who started this war? The federation for blundering into Dominion space and not taking the hints to leave and not return . The Cardassian and Romulan Secret police for foolishly attacking the Founders homeworld (For which they paid the price). The Klingons for being Warmongering arseholes who wreaked the whole Quadrant, Dukat for aligning Cardassia to the Dominion and giving them a foothold in the AQ( Dukat also overthrow the Democratic Government of the Cardassian Union, the Bastard).

And finally the biggest blame goes to the Founders who in their paranoia created several slave races to fight and die for them, abused religon to make themselves gods to said slaves whilst also making them drug addicts, and carried out acts of terrorism and political sabotage in order to start this damn war so they could conquer and destroy any race they felt threatened by(that is the whole damn Galaxy!).

 

[Thor Damar]

Also when Marie1 calls the Cardassian Union "Another power that wants to take over the AQ" I must disagree. Before the Dominion arrived the Cardassians had been through a terrible war with the Klingons which had seen their worlds ruined and millions of their people dead. All Cardassia wanted was the Klingons kicked out and to rebuild the Union. After the Dominion came the CU served merely as a puppet to the true oppressors of the Alpha Quadrant, The Founders.

 

[sunburn800]

If the dominion knew about the federation then its a good bet they knew about the borg too its possible that they understood a war with the borg was hopeless but on the other side of the wormhole they stood a better chance of survival. This could be why they had been sending they young though the wormhole to begin with to learn all they could of the aliens on the other side. Expanding in the direction of the borg was a bad idea.

 

[Thor Damar]

If the dominion knew about the federation then its a good bet they knew about the borg too its possible that they understood a war with the borg was hopeless but on the other side of the wormhole they stood a better chance of survival. This could be why they had been sending they young though the wormhole to begin with to learn all they could of the aliens on the other side. Expanding in the direction of the borg was a bad idea.

Not sure about that one. It's an interesting idea but I doubt that's why they sent the Hundred out. It was to gather intelligence on the solids and to see how they treated shapeshifters.

 

[sunburn800]

I meant to express that more of a theory than fact but thats why i love comming here it makes me think, what if. Did the dominion have some history with the borg? We know the borg attacked some out post in the neutral zone . they may have gone through Dominion space to do it, if they did the Dominion would have seen them as a futrue threat.

 

[Photon]

I meant to express that more of a theory than fact but thats why i love comming here it makes me think, what if. Did the dominion have some history with the borg? We know the borg attacked some out post in the neutral zone . they may have gone through Dominion space to do it, if they did the Dominion would have seen them as a futrue threat.

The Dominion did have conduits into the GQ and looks to be in Dominion Space. Don't know if they were active or not.

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/en/images/9/99/Borg_transwarp_network.jpg

Gotta a feelin' the Borg would rather not mess w/races that were crazy in battle and would throw ship after ship at them. The Borg could defeat the Dominion, but the price would be high, very high.

I would also surmise, that a Dominion capital, battle ship could stand toe to toe w/a Cube-it might not win, but could land significant damage to the Cube.

 

[Marie1]

Personally, I think that the Federation would've been annoyed but would've obeyed if that's the reception they'd gotten.

Maybe a little, but I consider the Dominion's space like the Klingons, Cardassians, Romulans... there is plenty of other places to explore after all. Its unfortunate, but the Federation should be used to it- they've met an awful lot of jerks.

I don't think the Dominion is evil- but it is run by paranoid, prejudiced people with superiority complexes... with genetically engineered soldiers. And the Federation was right to block them off when they started filling Cardassian space in an obvious military build up with another power who also wanted to take over the AQ.

I don't know...that sounds pretty much like evil to me. Yes, the Founders had been hurt--but they're responsible for their own decisions regardless of what's done to them from the outside, and especially at the ages they seem to be (the 100 aside), they should know better.

I don't think thats "evil" by definition- just control-freaky. Obviously I don't like the idea of enslavement/genocide. But I find their morality to be skewed from sitting in a puddle. If you're going to call the Dominion evil, then you have to call the Cardassians and the Romulans at least evil too, as they also enslave others. The Dominion calls it protection, Cardassians want resources, Romulans think they're superiour. But I think with some kind of moral tweaking, the systems, and life under them, could work. After all, the Federation isn't flawless either. The "Prime Directive" where you sit there and let a meteor wipe out all life on a planet when you could stop it... isn't all that different to me. A people was just wiped out.

Also when Marie1 calls the Cardassian Union "Another power that wants to take over the AQ" I must disagree. Before the Dominion arrived the Cardassians had been through a terrible war with the Klingons which had seen their worlds ruined and millions of their people dead. All Cardassia wanted was the Klingons kicked out and to rebuild the Union. After the Dominion came the CU served merely as a puppet to the true oppressors of the Alpha Quadrant, The Founders.

Thats not really true- the Cardassians were trying to expand on par with the Klingons etc, they didn't just annex Bajor alone for its resources. I'm thinking before the Klingon war, which was more "modern." I'm talking about their desires for the past couple hundred years or more. It was definately not a matter of them sitting quietly in their corner til the Dominion came by bent on galatic domination, and them saying... hey, never thought of that... that sounds cool, lets try it! The war with the Klingons may have taken some of the fight out of them, so I think that the alliance with the Dominion gave them the ability to reach their goals far sooner than they thought.

Have you read any of the Lost Era?

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I don't know...that sounds pretty much like evil to me. Yes, the Founders had been hurt--but they're responsible for their own decisions regardless of what's done to them from the outside, and especially at the ages they seem to be (the 100 aside), they should know better.

I don't think thats "evil" by definition- just control-freaky. Obviously I don't like the idea of enslavement/genocide. But I find their morality to be skewed from sitting in a puddle. If you're going to call the Dominion evil, then you have to call the Cardassians and the Romulans at least evil too, as they also enslave others. The Dominion calls it protection, Cardassians want resources, Romulans think they're superiour. But I think with some kind of moral tweaking, the systems, and life under them, could work. After all, the Federation isn't flawless either. The "Prime Directive" where you sit there and let a meteor wipe out all life on a planet when you could stop it... isn't all that different to me. A people was just wiped out.

The Cardassian and Romulan governments that did those things WERE evil. And the Federation is often apathetic, which is sometimes just as dangerous.

Also when Marie1 calls the Cardassian Union "Another power that wants to take over the AQ" I must disagree. Before the Dominion arrived the Cardassians had been through a terrible war with the Klingons which had seen their worlds ruined and millions of their people dead. All Cardassia wanted was the Klingons kicked out and to rebuild the Union. After the Dominion came the CU served merely as a puppet to the true oppressors of the Alpha Quadrant, The Founders.

Thats not really true- the Cardassians were trying to expand on par with the Klingons etc, they didn't just annex Bajor alone for its resources. I'm thinking before the Klingon war, which was more "modern." I'm talking about their desires for the past couple hundred years or more. It was definately not a matter of them sitting quietly in their corner til the Dominion came by bent on galatic domination, and them saying... hey, never thought of that... that sounds cool, lets try it! The war with the Klingons may have taken some of the fight out of them, so I think that the alliance with the Dominion gave them the ability to reach their goals far sooner than they thought.

But the Detapa Council had restored its power by then. Remember, it was in part the civilian leaders that forced the withdrawal from Bajor. How do we know the Council was interested in aggressive expansion anymore?

Yes, they had the fight knocked out of them by the Klingons--but remember why the Klingons invaded. It was because of the Detapa uprising...which was so revolutionary the Klingons couldn't even believe the Cardassians would DO that on their own.

 

[Marie1]

Thats not really true- the Cardassians were trying to expand on par with the Klingons etc, they didn't just annex Bajor alone for its resources. I'm thinking before the Klingon war, which was more "modern." I'm talking about their desires for the past couple hundred years or more. It was definately not a matter of them sitting quietly in their corner til the Dominion came by bent on galatic domination, and them saying... hey, never thought of that... that sounds cool, lets try it! The war with the Klingons may have taken some of the fight out of them, so I think that the alliance with the Dominion gave them the ability to reach their goals far sooner than they thought.

But the Detapa Council had restored its power by then. Remember, it was in part the civilian leaders that forced the withdrawal from Bajor. How do we know the Council was interested in aggressive expansion anymore?

Yes, they had the fight knocked out of them by the Klingons--but remember why the Klingons invaded. It was because of the Detapa uprising...which was so revolutionary the Klingons couldn't even believe the Cardassians would DO that on their own.

Apathy I think is one of the most common ills of humankind, and yet it goes unnoticed a lot...

Anyway, I need to read up some more about the Cardassians... I'm missing some intel about them... fortunately the Jem'hadar have good notes...

Is a lot learned about them in TNG?

 

[Jono]

I would also surmise, that a Dominion capital, battle ship could stand toe to toe w/a Cube-it might not win, but could land significant damage to the Cube.

It was only 3 times the strength of the Galaxy class and we've seen Borg cubes stand up to dozens of starships and ripe them to pieces. The Jem'Hadar battle ship would be doomed if it was on its own.

 

[Marie1]

The USS Odyssey (NCC-71832) was a Galaxy-class Federation starship that was destroyed by 2 of the little Jem'hadar warships. And there are thousands of Jem'hadar warships. Who consider themselves expendable. Plus, maybe the technology that prevents the Federation from being able to lock tractor beams on Dominion ships etc. wouldn't work on the Borg either.

 

[Kail]

Hypothetically, lets say the Feds capitulated to Dominion demands and had no missions through the anomaly and agreed to take out all colonies and settlements from AQ.

Would the Founders still have schemed to destabilize the AQ powers and later invade?

Had the Federation stayed out of Dominion space, the war never would have happened. I hate to say this, but the Federation started the war.

 

[Marie1]

^ I agree, but I'm not sure the war would never have happened, it may have occurred eventually. And then, what if people, say something like the OO/TS op snuck an attack still? There still may be been AQ conflict- and the Feds may well have sided with the Romulans etc., since SF was willing to just wait and see if that op was sucessful.

 

[Gotham Central]

Hypothetically, lets say the Feds capitulated to Dominion demands and had no missions through the anomaly and agreed to take out all colonies and settlements from AQ.

Would the Founders still have schemed to destabilize the AQ powers and later invade?

Had the Federation stayed out of Dominion space, the war never would have happened. I hate to say this, but the Federation started the war.

I'm sorry, no this is wrong. The Federation did not initiate hostilities. In fact, the Dominion had ample opportunity to make its presence known and express its concerns to the Federation. For starters, when the Ferengi establishe trade relations in the Gamma Quadrant, it was with one of the Dominion's vassal worlds. That would have been a great time to say hello. The said nothing.

They then proceeded to let Federation, Ferengi, Klingon, Cardassian andand many other species send ships into the region. Again they said nothing.

They even allowed the Bajorans, no doubt with Federation assistance to set up a fully functions colony......Silence

The one day out of no where they Kidnap a Starfleet officer, destroy several ships and massacre the inhabitants of New Bajor. ONLY THEN to they say keep off my lawn. They then proceeded to destroy a RETREATING Starfleet ship....more blood. Up until that point, the Dominion had potentially killed thousands citizens from the Alpha quadrant. No one from the Alpha quadrant had fired a shot.

On top of that the Dominion try to sneak a spy on board DS9 who makes a threat right before leaving (its pretty apparent that the Dominion had been spying on all the Alpha quadrant powers before that.

Then Starfleet sends the Defiant to find the founders just to establish contact and let them know that the Federation's intentions were not hostile. What does the Dominion do....they attack the ship and seize the crew. The Founders THEMSELVES find out via their mind probes of the Defiant crew (and no doubt after joining with Odo) that the Federation means them no harm. The remain hostile.

They then go on to lure the Cardassians and the Romulans into a trap simply to get them out of the way. Remember that up until this point, no Alpha Quadrant power had taken the life of any citizen of the Dominion. The Dominion, all on its own, has killed thousands. The Dominion then goes on to sabotage the Klingon Empire and instigate a war between the Cardassians and the Klingons while simultaneously infiltrating the Federation and causing chaos.

Lets be clear, the Dominion instigated the war. From the moment that the Defiant left Dominion space the first time, the Founders knew conclusively, that the Federation (at the very least) was not looking to initiate hostilities with them. Yet they kept up a cold war until things finally broke down.