Time Travel Again...
- Thread starter Admiral_Young
- Start date
Wait, didn't we talk about this before ?
I remember there were charts and stuff.
Around page 10 or so Picard And Riker showed up....
Picard : Whut ?
Riker : Oh no, not again....
OK, so we can all agree that one place where time travel is overdone is here on the BBS.
Time travel has always had its appeal, and there is little sign of it waning. The Terminator series has done quite well for itself. In recent years, we've had movies like The Butterfly Effect do pretty well with the concept. There's nothing wrong with the idea itself. If you want to go down that road, then we shouldn't make romance movies, war movies, comedies, etc. etc. because they've all been done.
All that matters is that the execution is engaging enough for the audience to suspend disbelief and enjoy the ride.
All that matters is that the execution is engaging enough for the audience to suspend disbelief and enjoy the ride.
It's possible that more people find time travel relatable as a fantasy than they do space exploration.
Personally, I view time travel as a gimmick to be used quite sparingly. It's like a plot where a main character finds out they have an evil twin or something. It can be thrilling and compelling, but not something you want to see on a regular basis.
Now, speaking for myself, being a longtime Star Trek fan(in varying degrees) has made me rather jaded about Trek's time travel stories. There have been a few very good ones, and a lot of really bad ones. But this movie's target audience(non-Star Trek-liking people) are unfettered by those preconceptions. I think if handled well, the time travel element of the story will be entertaining for this movie's intended audience. And not having seen the movie, I can't say that it won't be.
But here's the problem, to my mind:
*DISCLAIMER* No, I haven't seen the movie, so please don't jump down my throat with that one. I just calls 'em as I sees 'em. When I actually see the movie, I'll know just how right or wrong I was, and that's that. But in the meantime, pontificating on it gives me a semi-interesting way to pass the time.
The time travel portion of the story seems to be largely included to appease the die-hards. Its purpose seems to be to reconcile the holey(note: holey, not holy) Trek canon with newthis vision. And opinion on whether or not that's a good thing seems to be split down the middle. Some people love it. Some people hate it. That's fine, to each their own. But, for those of you who are already very on-board with this movie: Would you be any less excited if this was just a straight-up reboot? I could be wrong, but I'm thinking you wouldn't be. And the average movie-lover with only a passing familiarity with Star Trek's really not gonna care. The average guy or gal who doesn't know Star Trek is going to roped in by the same thing that, we all have to admit, is what made us love it: the characters.
Anything beyond the human core of Star Trek and its compelling characters is set dressing. Now don't get me wrong, I LOVE the set dressing. As a young child, my juvenile mind was IN LOVE with the original Enterprise. It was the best and most convincing kind of set dressing. What better to complement the larger-than-life yet relatable and believable characters than an awesome spaceship I could imagine really living and working on?! But in the end, all of that doesn't matter without great characters.
So, to me, the time travel stuff is just going to be extra hoops the movie's storyline has to jump through. I know people whose only concept of Star Trek is that it's about Captain Kirk, that guy William Shatner played in the 60's who had a spaceship and did every hot alien chick he met. This individual is not going to get/care about backstory from Trek's 24th century which involves disgruntled Romulans opposing Vulcan reunification or whatever the hell Nero's motivation is blah blah blah.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that, unless time travel has a way more profound function in the storyline than I currently understand, it seems unnecessary. The people that like it already would probably see a straight reboot done by JJ's creative team and still walk out of the theaters needing to change their pants embarrassingly badly, the people that hate it already will either not see it or see it just to dissect what exactly's bad about it and explain it to everyone in excruciatingly unwelcome detail, and the casual types who saw the exciting trailer during the Superbowl will probably go because it looks cool. And that last group makes up the vast majority, so does JJ really need to be potentially confusing them and turning them off with time travel story backflips?
Personally, as a "Trek Fan" I would have liked the idea of a straight reboot more. As I stated, I feel time travel is mostly a gimmick. And in this case, it makes the re-imagining(as I understand it) of characters I respect feel....I don't know...somehow hollow. Like a cop-out. I want them to have the balls to say defiantly, "Yeah, we're redoing Star Trek". That would have made a lot of people gasp and freak out. But it would be intriguing and get everyone's attention for sure. Don't give me this wishy-washy "yeah, we're redoing it but it's an alternate timeline so you don't have to be angry etc." That just feels like pandering to me. Again, I could be totally wrong here. I could walk out of that theater flipping the fuck out with nerdy glee. But I would feel better going in if I knew that this story, which is retelling the tale of characters who have been part of my life for as long as I can remember, stood on its own two legs, free of the shackles of preconceptions and limitations. Have some guts. You can't make everyone happy, so stop trying to. Just make something you think is good, and don't pander to us with half-hearted attempt at justification and reconciliation. You're intended audience is not going to give a rat's ass about that stuff anyway, why not challenge us "long-timers" and give us something to think about while you're at it?
My own views about aspects of this movie aside, I plan to see it with as open a mind as I can. I probably won't like everything. But I will judge it in its own context.
Thus concludes my drunken rant/wall of text. :P
Now, speaking for myself, being a longtime Star Trek fan(in varying degrees) has made me rather jaded about Trek's time travel stories. There have been a few very good ones, and a lot of really bad ones. But this movie's target audience(non-Star Trek-liking people) are unfettered by those preconceptions. I think if handled well, the time travel element of the story will be entertaining for this movie's intended audience. And not having seen the movie, I can't say that it won't be.
But here's the problem, to my mind:
*DISCLAIMER* No, I haven't seen the movie, so please don't jump down my throat with that one. I just calls 'em as I sees 'em. When I actually see the movie, I'll know just how right or wrong I was, and that's that. But in the meantime, pontificating on it gives me a semi-interesting way to pass the time.
The time travel portion of the story seems to be largely included to appease the die-hards. Its purpose seems to be to reconcile the holey(note: holey, not holy) Trek canon with newthis vision. And opinion on whether or not that's a good thing seems to be split down the middle. Some people love it. Some people hate it. That's fine, to each their own. But, for those of you who are already very on-board with this movie: Would you be any less excited if this was just a straight-up reboot? I could be wrong, but I'm thinking you wouldn't be. And the average movie-lover with only a passing familiarity with Star Trek's really not gonna care. The average guy or gal who doesn't know Star Trek is going to roped in by the same thing that, we all have to admit, is what made us love it: the characters.
Anything beyond the human core of Star Trek and its compelling characters is set dressing. Now don't get me wrong, I LOVE the set dressing. As a young child, my juvenile mind was IN LOVE with the original Enterprise. It was the best and most convincing kind of set dressing. What better to complement the larger-than-life yet relatable and believable characters than an awesome spaceship I could imagine really living and working on?! But in the end, all of that doesn't matter without great characters.
So, to me, the time travel stuff is just going to be extra hoops the movie's storyline has to jump through. I know people whose only concept of Star Trek is that it's about Captain Kirk, that guy William Shatner played in the 60's who had a spaceship and did every hot alien chick he met. This individual is not going to get/care about backstory from Trek's 24th century which involves disgruntled Romulans opposing Vulcan reunification or whatever the hell Nero's motivation is blah blah blah.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that, unless time travel has a way more profound function in the storyline than I currently understand, it seems unnecessary. The people that like it already would probably see a straight reboot done by JJ's creative team and still walk out of the theaters needing to change their pants embarrassingly badly, the people that hate it already will either not see it or see it just to dissect what exactly's bad about it and explain it to everyone in excruciatingly unwelcome detail, and the casual types who saw the exciting trailer during the Superbowl will probably go because it looks cool. And that last group makes up the vast majority, so does JJ really need to be potentially confusing them and turning them off with time travel story backflips?
Personally, as a "Trek Fan" I would have liked the idea of a straight reboot more. As I stated, I feel time travel is mostly a gimmick. And in this case, it makes the re-imagining(as I understand it) of characters I respect feel....I don't know...somehow hollow. Like a cop-out. I want them to have the balls to say defiantly, "Yeah, we're redoing Star Trek". That would have made a lot of people gasp and freak out. But it would be intriguing and get everyone's attention for sure. Don't give me this wishy-washy "yeah, we're redoing it but it's an alternate timeline so you don't have to be angry etc." That just feels like pandering to me. Again, I could be totally wrong here. I could walk out of that theater flipping the fuck out with nerdy glee. But I would feel better going in if I knew that this story, which is retelling the tale of characters who have been part of my life for as long as I can remember, stood on its own two legs, free of the shackles of preconceptions and limitations. Have some guts. You can't make everyone happy, so stop trying to. Just make something you think is good, and don't pander to us with half-hearted attempt at justification and reconciliation. You're intended audience is not going to give a rat's ass about that stuff anyway, why not challenge us "long-timers" and give us something to think about while you're at it?
My own views about aspects of this movie aside, I plan to see it with as open a mind as I can. I probably won't like everything. But I will judge it in its own context.
Thus concludes my drunken rant/wall of text. :P
There's no indication so far that time travel is anything more than a MacGuffin to get Nimoy into the picture, anyway.
Aside from very brief excursions at the outset and once or twice in the film, the movie is about how Kirk and the other regulars from TOS wind up serving together on the Enterprise.
And that story is different from the unofficial versions conjured up over the years by novelists and eager fans. They'll just have to deal.
Aside from very brief excursions at the outset and once or twice in the film, the movie is about how Kirk and the other regulars from TOS wind up serving together on the Enterprise.
And that story is different from the unofficial versions conjured up over the years by novelists and eager fans. They'll just have to deal.
Whatever. It's fiction, you can call it an "alternate universe" or you can call it "abracadabra." Same thing.
That's a pretty good post, for a drunken rant. (condensed here somewhat) I don't necessarily agree with you every step of the way, but you made some good points.Personally, I view time travel as a gimmick to be used quite sparingly. It's like a plot where a main character finds out they have an evil twin or something. It can be thrilling and compelling, but not something you want to see on a regular basis.
Now, speaking for myself, being a longtime Star Trek fan(in varying degrees) has made me rather jaded about Trek's time travel stories. There have been a few very good ones, and a lot of really bad ones. But this movie's target audience(non-Star Trek-liking people) are unfettered by those preconceptions. I think if handled well, the time travel element of the story will be entertaining for this movie's intended audience. And not having seen the movie, I can't say that it won't be.
But here's the problem, to my mind:
*DISCLAIMER* [...]
The time travel portion of the story seems to be largely included to appease the die-hards. Its purpose seems to be to reconcile the holey(note: holey, not holy) Trek canon with newthis vision. And opinion on whether or not that's a good thing seems to be split down the middle. Some people love it. Some people hate it. That's fine, to each their own. But, for those of you who are already very on-board with this movie: Would you be any less excited if this was just a straight-up reboot? I could be wrong, but I'm thinking you wouldn't be. [...]
Anything beyond the human core of Star Trek and its compelling characters is set dressing. Now don't get me wrong, I LOVE the set dressing. [...] But in the end, all of that doesn't matter without great characters.
So, to me, the time travel stuff is just going to be extra hoops the movie's storyline has to jump through. [...]
I guess what I'm trying to say is that, unless time travel has a way more profound function in the storyline than I currently understand, it seems unnecessary. The people that like it already would probably see a straight reboot done by JJ's creative team and still walk out of the theaters needing to change their pants embarrassingly badly, the people that hate it already will either not see it or see it just to dissect what exactly's bad about it and explain it to everyone in excruciatingly unwelcome detail, and the casual types who saw the exciting trailer during the Superbowl will probably go because it looks cool. And that last group makes up the vast majority, so does JJ really need to be potentially confusing them and turning them off with time travel story backflips?
Personally, as a "Trek Fan" I would have liked the idea of a straight reboot more. As I stated, I feel time travel is mostly a gimmick. And in this case, it makes the re-imagining(as I understand it) of characters I respect feel....I don't know...somehow hollow. Like a cop-out. I want them to have the balls to say defiantly, "Yeah, we're redoing Star Trek". That would have made a lot of people gasp and freak out. But it would be intriguing and get everyone's attention for sure. Don't give me this wishy-washy "yeah, we're redoing it but it's an alternate timeline so you don't have to be angry etc." That just feels like pandering to me. Again, I could be totally wrong here. I could walk out of that theater flipping the fuck out with nerdy glee. But I would feel better going in if I knew that this story, which is retelling the tale of characters who have been part of my life for as long as I can remember, stood on its own two legs, free of the shackles of preconceptions and limitations. Have some guts. You can't make everyone happy, so stop trying to. Just make something you think is good, and don't pander to us with half-hearted attempt at justification and reconciliation. You're intended audience is not going to give a rat's ass about that stuff anyway, why not challenge us "long-timers" and give us something to think about while you're at it?
[...]
Thus concludes my drunken rant/wall of text. :P
For my part, I'm not automatically bothered by the time-travel element. Some of the best stories I've ever read or watched have been time-travel stories; some of the most inept, unbelievable and unsatisfying stories have also featured or hinged upon a time-travel element. Star Trek, as a whole, has stories at both extremes, and some scattered in between.
As you say, though, the time-travel itself isn't the most important thing. As long as that aspect is presented somewhat plausibly -- as long as it doesn't provoke an "Oh, come on" response and doesn't stand up and wave a sign which reads:
HEY, LOOK!
MAGIC PLOT DEVICE
HERE!
then I'll probably be cool with it. Story and characters will be what carries the movie (or doesn't.)MAGIC PLOT DEVICE
HERE!
I'm not too concerned that Abrams and company are trying to slip by a reboot without calling it that. If anything, I see a reboot as being more of a cop-out than what they've said they're doing here: trying to tell new stories in parts of the Trek universe we think we know but haven't really explored, and making it fit without making that box seem too small and restricted. I've been getting the notion that they have taken this as a challenge.
Will I be 100% pleased with 100% of what they've done? No way to tell, yet, but like you, I'm willing to go in with an open mind and give them a shot at it.
Off-topic:
I like this av, and have meaning to compliment you on it.
I wasn't saying that time travel was a bad plot device...just overused and unneccessary and the excuses that they needed to use it to see our permission is a little ridculous, they were going to tell the story however they wanted to. JJ has even stated that he wasn't making this film as a Star Trek fan or even for the hardcore fans but a general audience and maybe as a way to generate new fans. My point really was (and recall that I stated I'm pysched up as anyone for this movie, I can't wait until May) that it seems like a cheap way to tell the main story. Kind of disapointed that they didn't do a stand alone story...sure have all the action and drama you want but do you have to include time travel? that was basically my point.
If you asked me to name my 10 all-time favorite Trek episodes, six would involve time travel, two would involve evil twins, and the other two would involve "it was all a dream" episodes.
Maybe I'm just a sucker for plot gimmicks and clichés. ...
Not in this thread, anyway.
Jackson_Roykirk did this a while back for another thread:
