Indeed? Shater's books seem to be doing well even though Kirk died in the movies. I don't think too many people are upset about Trip coming back either. At least, I don't see any threads with people angry he's back...
Latecomer To This: JANEWAY DIED?!?
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Indeed? Shater's books seem to be doing well even though Kirk died in the movies. I don't think too many people are upset about Trip coming back either. At least, I don't see any threads with people angry he's back...
You must have missed all the posts where Margaret Clark - the same editor who decided Janeway should die - was castigated for "going against canon" and forcing an unbelievable storyline and resurrecting Trip?
There have allso been many posts over the years that claim the Shatnerverse is self-indulgent, and people are glad its events are not referenced by the mainstream continuity.
Yes I did. Were there a lot? I suppose I could do a search but I need to get ready to go out...
I do believe you used the word ridiculous twice in your post - that's a very strong hint to me. If you don't mean ridiculous, don't use it.
Do I care? No. I've already stated that I simply won't buy their books. I thought we were talking posibilities, but obviously I was wrong and I will try to keep my mouth shut on that issue from now on.
Great, now I am or maybe rather my feelings on the matter are absurd. Oh well, I've had worse. I can deal with it.
However, on the fact issue...I've stated time and time again that I can only talk for me and how I feel. I continuously use 'I', but yes, for me it IS a fact. In my opinion it's a fact - for me. Not for you, but for ME!
It may be absurd to you, but Janeway is important to me, and she WAS a vital part of my passion for Voyager.
I don't care if other people find it perfectly acceptable when main characters leave a show. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. For Voyager I DON'T find it acceptable with Janeway gone.
Now take McLeod's Daughters...I hated when they killed Claire and I hated when they sent off Tess, but my gosh I was so hooked on the show itself that I HAD to carry on. However, Voyager in itself isn't nearly as strong a show, in my opinion, and without Janeway... well you already know what I think so I'll move on.
Isn't it?
It seems to have been in question an awful lot in this and similar threads. We've been told repeatedly that there's only a handful of us - 'militant janewayphiles' I believe was one term.
And I have to wonder what you base your assumptions on. There seems to be very little indisputable data on hand to judge that either way.
That's incredibly easy to answer and no I did not use sarcasm.
One didnt happen - after all they never did kill her on the show - so I don't know how I would have reacted to it if they had, but the other has and so...do I need to finish?
We're talking about something hypothetical and factual here, depending on the media, and I can only deal with the facts and fact is that they DID kill her in the books and I know how I feel. They didnt on the show and so I can only speculate there.
I don't, but I don't care enough for Star Trek in general to spend my money on it consider they gave Janeway the send off they did.
I care about Voyager, Janeway, the EMH, Tom, B'Elanna, Chakotay, Neelix, Tuvok, Harry... Not Titan and a set of strangers.
Nah, we scared them off from posting ever again - by shutting down their arguments through clever wordplay and humour.
Nah, we scared them off from posting ever again - by shutting down their arguments through clever wordplay and humour.
What a shame you've given up on the clever wordplay and humor.
I'm not sure that too many people on an international bbs have followed "McLeod's Daughters", a soap opera where the number of a dead man's illegimate offspring is determined only by how many young Aussie starlets want to move to greener pastures during the course of a series.
Unless you compare it to the loss of Voyager shuttlecraft.
In any case, you didn't want us using one show's precedents to compare with any other show.
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What a shame you've given up on the clever wordplay and humor.
You're the mod. You suggested I should.
No.
You said: "But it won't be Voyager either without...you got it - JANEWAY!"
Don't twist my words or leave things out - right above that line I stated that Voyager wouldn't be Voyager without any of its main characters (even if I'd do fine on a personal level without a few of them, but only a few!).
You had said something about Voyager surviving without anybody but Janeway and I said no I do not believe that, but neither do I believe it will survive without her.
The art of debating? I'm sure many a court case has turned out with a different result due to the twisting of words and leaving things out.
Unhappy? No? Happy with the way it was done? Also no I'm afraid.
In any case, you didn't want us using one show's precedents to compare with any other show.
I used it to show something about ME - not to prove a speculative point.
I'll simply ignore your remarks about a show I like.
The art of debating? I'm sure many a court case has turned out with a different result due to the twisting of words and leaving things out.
Perhaps, but I prefer to debate fair and square and that does not include tricks like that.
This is what I think is strange, Gorf. It seems to me as though you are implying (and please, correct me if I'm wrong) that losing any main characters would be, unequivocally, a Bad Thing for Voyager to do. In a factual way, not in your personal opinion, Voyager would be Not The Same (in a bad way) if any main character were to leave, and thus that this should not be done. However, there are certain characters that you personally don't care for, and you wouldn't mind if they left.
Please, tell me if I am wrong about anything in that paragraph; I'm not trying to put words in your mouth.
If I am right, then let me say this. It's hard to disagree with you about the last point; there are certainly characters that I totally wouldn't mind shuffling off. But on the former point, I genuinely DO have to disagree, in an objective way. Main characters leave series all the time, and main characters are added to series all the time. I don't think you can reasonably say, in an absolute not-in-my-own-personal-opinion sense, that main characters leaving a show (Voyager or otherwise) is inherently a Bad Thing.
Do you disagree?
You know what...I think I'm just going to say yes and no to that one cause I do think it depends on the perspective and the personal taste of the person you ask.
For me - PERSONALLY - the show absolutely couldn't do without Janeway, the EMH, Chakotay, Tom, B'Elanna, and Neelix.
I'm undecided about Tuvok and Harry Kim, and I could do without Kes and Seven though Seven did bring an interesting aspect to begin with.
BUT that's ME personally and as I wouldn't want to rob somebody of their favourite character and the enjoyment they get from him or her...well then I'll say yes and no - it depends.
Hm, interesting and fair enough. I still contend that killing / removing main characters, or at least the possibility thereof, is absolutely essential to my enjoyment of any sci-fi story, as I insist that the human element be as real as possible to ground the story, since the setting is obviously so fantastical.
But let me ask you a slightly related question; just out of curiosity. If there were a spinoff show announced after Voyager got home, about Captain Chakotay, with Paris and Kim and an otherwise all new crew (and thus missing some important characters on your list), would you have tuned in?
Because the books are basically exactly the same thing, only with side-plots off-ship for everyone else except Neelix, who's in the DQ, and Janeway (at least once she dies, which is something like halfway or more through the first book). If you don't think of it as "Voyager", but as a separate story utilizing some of the characters you like, does that make it appealing?
Granted, Janeway is dead and that's the kind of thing that could clearly piss anyone off well enough to make them avoid a show like that, but assume for a moment Janeway wasn't dead, but just wasn't going to make any appearances. Would you be interested?
But let me ask you a slightly related question; just out of curiosity. If there were a spinoff show announced after Voyager got home, about Captain Chakotay, with Paris and Kim and an otherwise all new crew (and thus missing some important characters on your list), would you have tuned in?
Because the books are basically exactly the same thing, only with side-plots off-ship for everyone else except Neelix, who's in the DQ, and Janeway (at least once she dies, which is something like halfway or more through the first book). If you don't think of it as "Voyager", but as a separate story utilizing some of the characters you like, does that make it appealing?
Granted, Janeway is dead and that's the kind of thing that could clearly piss anyone off well enough to make them avoid a show like that, but assume for a moment Janeway wasn't dead, but just wasn't going to make any appearances. Would you be interested?
Just for the record, the forced, unbelievable storyline and Trip's 'resurrection' are seperate issues. There were ways to bring the character back without degenerating into the absurdly convoluted, Byzantine plot for which the novel has attracted the majority of flak. (Though I do remember at least one poster who felt that the resurrection itself went against the authorial intentions of the showrunners.) And the Shatnerverse is best kept outside of continuity for being astoundingly over-the-top; again, not a question of resurrection, but of it's execution.
Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
Counting from where?
As someone who is only now getting back into reading the novels, I figured I'd throw in my two cents.
As background, Voyager was my favorite series and, despite random flirtations with other series, it continues to be my favorite- if for no other reason than it was what I grew up with. I started watching Star Trek as a wee lad with TNG, but it was not until Voyager came onto the scene that I was old enough to care about more than how space ships were cool, and the drama of Deep Space Nine was too serious for my interest. For six or seven years, the drama of whether or not the 7:00 Saturday showing would be pre-empted by Indians baseball was my life. Consequently, Janeway was my captain, in much the same way people say, "____ was my Doctor".
I quickly latched onto the various Voyager novels being pumped out at the time, back when they were still numbered. I loved them, but after a few years began to sense a pattern to them, and was turned off by something I couldn't quite figure out, which I later realized was the reset button.
I love stories that reference each other, where something that happens in one can affect the other- apparently, I always have, because I remember loving how the first three Starfleet Academy novels shared continuity, and I hated the lack of connections between the two Geordi books. However, at the end of Capture the Flag, Boothby tells Geordi he'll tell him about Cadet Picard one day, which, since I read the Picard book first, I thought of as a connection at the time, and I ate it up. Later, in the aftermath of Generations, all the different stories that began with Veridian III and led to the Enterprise E in different ways bugged the hell out of me (The Return and Ship of the Line, I'm looking at you). In the end, I lost interest in Star Trek novels, although the occasional SCE, Eugenics Wars, or Voyager Relaunch book found its way into my hands, usually through the library. And, while it was rare that I read Star Wars due to a lack of interest, I admired the Expanded Universe's ability to share a continuity, and hearing that they killed Chewie showed anything could happen.
Flash forward to 2008. I'm lurking on the SCN message board and reading about Destiny, where I learn that many storylines had combined into a shared continuity. I'm intrigued. I then hear about Before Dishonor, and that Janeway becomes the Borg Queen. Boo. After those Christie Golden VOY relaunch books, where the only good thing was that at least Chakotay still would be commanding Voyager when Janeway was removed as according to Nemesis, I don't want to hear anything about the damn Borg queen again.
But then I read further: Janeway dies, going out defiantly and headstrong (one of her best traits, IMO) taking out her mortal enemies. She's dead. Dead as a doornail. A memorial with an eternal flame is place in memory of her on Earth and, from now on, she'll be gone, and Voyager (especially Chakotay, who finally got with Janeway at the end of the second relaunch book) will have to deal with the loss.
Wow. Wow. I'm blown away. Suddenly, it seems the Star Trek novel universe is one where anything can happen. And, while saddened that MY captain is gone, I'm satisfied, and looking forward to Destiny.
All of you who are understandably angered at her death are proof of those readers this death may have caused Pocket Books. I'm proof of those they've gained, even among those of us who love and care about Captain Janeway.
You can't please everyone, you can only tell the story you think is best, no matter what others think, because there will always be those who disagree.
As background, Voyager was my favorite series and, despite random flirtations with other series, it continues to be my favorite- if for no other reason than it was what I grew up with. I started watching Star Trek as a wee lad with TNG, but it was not until Voyager came onto the scene that I was old enough to care about more than how space ships were cool, and the drama of Deep Space Nine was too serious for my interest. For six or seven years, the drama of whether or not the 7:00 Saturday showing would be pre-empted by Indians baseball was my life. Consequently, Janeway was my captain, in much the same way people say, "____ was my Doctor".
I quickly latched onto the various Voyager novels being pumped out at the time, back when they were still numbered. I loved them, but after a few years began to sense a pattern to them, and was turned off by something I couldn't quite figure out, which I later realized was the reset button.
I love stories that reference each other, where something that happens in one can affect the other- apparently, I always have, because I remember loving how the first three Starfleet Academy novels shared continuity, and I hated the lack of connections between the two Geordi books. However, at the end of Capture the Flag, Boothby tells Geordi he'll tell him about Cadet Picard one day, which, since I read the Picard book first, I thought of as a connection at the time, and I ate it up. Later, in the aftermath of Generations, all the different stories that began with Veridian III and led to the Enterprise E in different ways bugged the hell out of me (The Return and Ship of the Line, I'm looking at you). In the end, I lost interest in Star Trek novels, although the occasional SCE, Eugenics Wars, or Voyager Relaunch book found its way into my hands, usually through the library. And, while it was rare that I read Star Wars due to a lack of interest, I admired the Expanded Universe's ability to share a continuity, and hearing that they killed Chewie showed anything could happen.
Flash forward to 2008. I'm lurking on the SCN message board and reading about Destiny, where I learn that many storylines had combined into a shared continuity. I'm intrigued. I then hear about Before Dishonor, and that Janeway becomes the Borg Queen. Boo. After those Christie Golden VOY relaunch books, where the only good thing was that at least Chakotay still would be commanding Voyager when Janeway was removed as according to Nemesis, I don't want to hear anything about the damn Borg queen again.
But then I read further: Janeway dies, going out defiantly and headstrong (one of her best traits, IMO) taking out her mortal enemies. She's dead. Dead as a doornail. A memorial with an eternal flame is place in memory of her on Earth and, from now on, she'll be gone, and Voyager (especially Chakotay, who finally got with Janeway at the end of the second relaunch book) will have to deal with the loss.
Wow. Wow. I'm blown away. Suddenly, it seems the Star Trek novel universe is one where anything can happen. And, while saddened that MY captain is gone, I'm satisfied, and looking forward to Destiny.
All of you who are understandably angered at her death are proof of those readers this death may have caused Pocket Books. I'm proof of those they've gained, even among those of us who love and care about Captain Janeway.
You can't please everyone, you can only tell the story you think is best, no matter what others think, because there will always be those who disagree.
Pardon; that was a mistake. I was referring to Full Circle, but I unintentionally overlooked Golden's books, which should've counted in my post.
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