Latecomer To This: JANEWAY DIED?!?

[Ktrek]

And just tell me why a person that wants to read books about Janeway is going have any satisfaction from the Last Book? Get real. How many times must we say this? We do not want a dead Janeway. If you cannot think of any stories to write about her fine, but she isn't a disposible character that no one cares about.

And once again I will say "Women are not interchangeable."

And no I will not buy another Trek book, until Janeway is back and back properly in the same condition she was in in "Nemesis".

Brit

And how many times do we all have to say we're fine with that! We can't force you to buy and read the books. The small percentage of books not purchased will likely be more than compensated by those who do purchase them. We understand you don't like the fact that Janeway has been killed off in the books but you're barking up the wrong tree here. Most of the members in the four Janeway threads do not agree with your position so you're just wasting your time trying to convert us all into Janewayites.

Kevin

 

[Thrawn]

Tay, I still find it weird that you'd boycott a whole COMPANY for the actions of two editors, one of whom is now gone anyway, on one particular line.

I mean, if the rest of their books aren't working for you either, then you don't have to read them, but just buy what you want to read and ignore the rest, regardless of company. Don't boycott other lines for reasons that have nothing to do with the people that actually wrote and published them. That seems inane to me.

It's like when people were going to boycott Fox because they cancelled Firefly. Which would, um, just make them cancel the next good show they bought, because no one watched it. Didn't make much sense to me. Support what you think is worth buying, book by book, and hope that other people follow the same pattern and the company notices.

 

[Octavia]

Now I don't know if there is one person in charge of quality control or not.

Until recently, there were two: Paula Block and John Van Citters of CBS Television Licensing.

I just know that whoever they are, the writers and editors of Trek were happy having their work alongside the books that have so put me off Trek. That tells me that at some level, they're happy with the standard of everything Voyager written since Homecoming.

Sarcasm Mode Engaged: Oh, really? You "know" this? For a fact? Are you a psychic? Can you read the minds of authors and editors who reside literally on the opposite side of the planet from you? How amazing!

And sorry, Trek authors, but good as some of you may be, you're not GGM. But do you get my overall point?

How could we miss it? You just called every last one of us a hack, or, in the most generous interpretation of your post, second-rate authors. Thanks for your glib expression of derision. Allow me to return the compliment by commending you on your oh-so-carefully-phrased insult of people you have never met.

I'm not trying to cause offense by saying any of this

Well, then — EPIC FAIL.

Bollocks. I'm not calling you a hack. I'm saying that TrekLit - like every other list - has a certain level of quality. Whether anyone thinks that level is brilliant or terrible or somewhere in between is subjective. You obviously think it's at a high level because you choose to write for them.

Would you choose to write novels for a line that you thought was poor quality? I would sincerely hope that no writer, anywhere, would answer yes. Not unless their kid needed money for a transplant or something and they were desperate for cash.

So the reasonable assumption is that you do not think Trek is putting out substandard work.

On the other hand, it should be quite clear by now that I believe Voyager has consistently been substandard for quite some time now. One book every so often is excusable. It happens. But an entire run? Do you disagree on that point?

If you do disagree, then we have quite different ideas about the quality of what is coming out of Trek.

If you do agree - isn't there the risk of your own work falling to that level? What happens if you put out a substandard manuscript yourself (I think probably everyone has an off-book eventually) and it gets edited to the same standard as Voyager has been, becoming a substandard book?

That's why I surmise that most writers will want to work in the highest talent pool they can - simply for the benefit it brings to their own writing.

And FWIW, there is no shame in being a second-rate writer. There are very few literary geniuses in the world, and it shouldn't be news to you that James Joyce, GGM, Doris Lessing, and a few others knock the majority out of the park. Unless you can seriously look me in the eye and tell me that you work on the same level as these people then they are simply in a different class. There's no shame in being a second-rate writer, in not being a genius. There are a lot of very good second-rate writers out there - it's the fifth and sixth rate that you have to watch out for.

 

[Steve Roby]

Now I don't know if there is one person in charge of quality control or not. If there is, then the Voyager relaunch was acceptable to them, and I am sceptical that they will apply different standards to other books. That makes me not want to read those other books. Now if this person exists and they are the one who has been replaced, then sure! It might be worth having another go. If not, my scepticism still applies.

Alternately, there is no one person in charge of quality control, and the different lines are parcelled out to different editors. In which case - why is there not?

Actually, there are several people responsible for quality control. First, the writers, who strive to do their best because they're professionals and because they want to continue being writers. Second, the editors, who want to make sure the books they work on bring money and acclaim to the publisher, in addition to also being professionals. Third, CBS Licensing, whose responsibility is to make sure licensees like Pocket don't tarnish the Star Trek brand. We're lucky nowadays that the people in these positions are all sincere Star Trek fans; that hasn't always been the case.

It's been explained several times that the direction of the Voyager relaunch was originally the work of editor John Ordover, who left Pocket a few years ago, and Christie Golden, the writer, who's been focusing her career elsewhere over the last few years. If you don't like what they did, you're in luck, because neither of them is involved any more.

But this isn't widget manufacturing. Some things are simply going to be a matter of taste; the concept of quality control doesn't apply as easily here as in some other industries. There are some writers who have had a lot of Trek novels published who I'd never hire if I were an editor because I think they're really not very good, but one or two of those people have in the past been Pocket's most popular authors, and people whose opinions I respect disagree with me on those authors' merits. How does quality control come into play when it's all a matter of subjective opinion?

 

[Ktrek]

For all of those freaking out on the Janeway fans for how they are taking this, regardless of how much time has passed, can you honestly say that you would want to read a book after one of your favorite characters was killed off? Knowing that there would be no future books with that character running around, would you want to put money into something that would always leave a bitter taste as you attempted to read it?

And my honest answer to this query would be a definite YES! Star Trek to me is not just a character or series of characters. It's a universe that is diverse. I'm sorry that the Janeway fans are so closed minded that you limit yourselves but I can't push some magic button and make all things right again by you nor would I want to. I am interested in the direction the Voyager series has taken. Is it risky? Perhaps but I doubt it. Most fans that I know of are not as over the top as those Janeways in the few threads that have erupted. We understand your position and so really what more is there to say? Absolutely nothing! You are not capable of changing anything and neither are we so you just are dragging things on needlessly.

Kevin

 

[BillJ]

Really... over four hundred posts on Janeway being dead? Taking it a bit personal folks?



Seriously, I admire the risks that Pocket has taken with Trek fiction over the past few years. Bringing Trek more in line with modern storytelling. Though there are a ton of those decisions I disagree with (TNG relaunch).

I'm not a huge Voyager fan but I'll drop the cash to see where Kirsten takes the re-relaunch. Personally, I'm hoping for a 'Return to Gilligan's Island' scenario. I loved it.

 

[Tay]

Tay, I still find it weird that you'd boycott a whole COMPANY for the actions of two editors, one of whom is now gone anyway, on one particular line.

I mean, if the rest of their books aren't working for you either, then you don't have to read them, but just buy what you want to read and ignore the rest, regardless of company. Don't boycott other lines for reasons that have nothing to do with the people that actually wrote and published them. That seems inane to me.

It's like when people were going to boycott Fox because they cancelled Firefly. Which would, um, just make them cancel the next good show they bought, because no one watched it. Didn't make much sense to me. Support what you think is worth buying, book by book, and hope that other people follow the same pattern and the company notices.

It's not just what happened here, Thrawn. The books that Pocket has been putting out have decreased in the quality of the writing and the prices keep going up. While some of the Voyager books may not have been stellar, they gave me a chance to read about my favorite series. I was even willing to read some that I didn't thoroughly enjoy because of those characters, Janeway being one of the main draws.

I still read the previous books in the series. I loved Black Shore, Mosaic, Pathways, The Murdered Sun, Violations, Ghost of a Chance. Even The Final Fury (Star Trek: Voyager, No 9: Invasion Book No 4), wormed its way into my list of favs for some of the humour I found in it.

Again, I mean no disrespect to Kirsten. I loved Isabo's Shirt and her writing style. Full Circle is just not a voyage I wish to take. I wish her the best though.

 

[Octavia]

Actually, there are several people responsible for quality control. First, the writers, who strive to do their best because they're professionals and because they want to continue being writers. Second, the editors, who want to make sure the books they work on bring money and acclaim to the publisher, in addition to also being professionals. Third, CBS Licensing, whose responsibility is to make sure licensees like Pocket don't tarnish the Star Trek brand.

Sure, I get that, and I agree with your assessment, but: sometimes it all falls down. Repeatedly. If it does (and it has) there's something wrong going on somewhere in that chain.

It's been explained several times that the direction of the Voyager relaunch was originally the work of editor John Ordover, who left Pocket a few years ago, and Christie Golden, the writer, who's been focusing her career elsewhere over the last few years. If you don't like what they did, you're in luck, because neither of them is involved any more.

Fantastic - but they haven't both been responsible for everything since Homecoming, have they?

Here's what I'm having trouble grasping. You have multiple lines, with multiple editors and authors working on those lines. Sometimes there is overlap, sometimes there is not. But they're all working together in the same industry - in the same corner of the industry that is the ST publishing business.

In this "room" that is ST Publishing, who does the buck stop with? If one series isn't up to snuff, who steps in and gets it back to the level of the rest?

But this isn't widget manufacturing. Some things are simply going to be a matter of taste; the concept of quality control doesn't apply as easily here as in some other industries. There are some writers who have had a lot of Trek novels published who I'd never hire if I were an editor because I think they're really not very good, but one or two of those people have in the past been Pocket's most popular authors, and people whose opinions I respect disagree with me on those authors' merits. How does quality control come into play when it's all a matter of subjective opinion?

I agree that quality is a matter of subjective opinion, but surely there's got to be a way to make it more even? Taste doesn't cover outrageous coincidences/plot holes, or inconsistent storylines - these should be picked up whatever story type you like. Taste doesn't excuse little or no character development: fine, if you're an editor, you may like Paris more than Kim or Data more that Geordi, but you should still be able to objectively grasp imbalance or lack of focus when you see it, regardless of your personal preferences. Taste doesn't govern repetitive storylines, or lack of depth. There's a lot that can be more objectively than subjectively rated.

 

[Tay]

For all of those freaking out on the Janeway fans for how they are taking this, regardless of how much time has passed, can you honestly say that you would want to read a book after one of your favorite characters was killed off? Knowing that there would be no future books with that character running around, would you want to put money into something that would always leave a bitter taste as you attempted to read it?

And my honest answer to this query would be a definite YES! Star Trek to me is not just a character or series of characters. It's a universe that is diverse. I'm sorry that the Janeway fans are so closed minded that you limit yourselves but I can't push some magic button and make all things right again by you nor would I want to. I am interested in the direction the Voyager series has taken. Is it risky? Perhaps but I doubt it. Most fans that I know of are not as over the top as those Janeways in the few threads that have erupted. We understand your position and so really what more is there to say? Absolutely nothing! You are not capable of changing anything and neither are we so you just are dragging things on needlessly.

Kevin

You're entitled to your opinion. I may not agree with it. I'm glad that you feel that the Trek Universe is proceeding in a way that you can continue to enjoy.

However, I would like to point out that just because we're arguing for one point does not make us close minded. You're basing that assumption on a few posts made. I've read a few books from the other series and they didn't capture my attention as much as the Voyager books did. Did I enjoy those other books? Some of them yes, other I stopped midway through.

If by stating my opinion that I disliked where the editor/publishers/authors are taking the series IMHO is dragging this along, I will continue to do so.

To quote an early Voyager episode: "And if I don't agree with the majority, then I'm to be locked up for eternity."

Or this case, silenced. The Voyager fans that love Janeway want their voices heard. You can always ignore us.

I certainly don't want to mock others for their views nor do I want that done to me.

I hope that if you chose to respond to this, you answer in the same way you wish me to respond. With respect for each others POV.

 

[Trent Roman]

Sure, I get that, and I agree with your assessment, but: sometimes it all falls down. Repeatedly. If it does (and it has) there's something wrong going on somewhere in that chain.

Problem is: by whose standards does it fall down? You and I, and quite a few others, may agree that the VOY-R books we'd gotten so far sucked donkey balls, but at the same time they sold very well, like, er, caramel-coated donkey balls. I don't doubt for a minute that everybody involved with the VOY-R books thought they were making a good product, that what we apperceive as faults was, to them, selling points or else irrelevant to the enjoyment of the book. And even here, the VOY-R books has its defenders, because, even beyond the fact that everybody has different tastes, not everybody expects the same thing from Trek fiction. Some like light fiction, and find more involving reads a slog to get through.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Brit]

And just tell me why a person that wants to read books about Janeway is going have any satisfaction from the Last Book? Get real. How many times must we say this? We do not want a dead Janeway. If you cannot think of any stories to write about her fine, but she isn't a disposible character that no one cares about.

And once again I will say "Women are not interchangeable."

And no I will not buy another Trek book, until Janeway is back and back properly in the same condition she was in in "Nemesis".

Brit

And how many times do we all have to say we're fine with that! We can't force you to buy and read the books. The small percentage of books not purchased will likely be more than compensated by those who do purchase them. We understand you don't like the fact that Janeway has been killed off in the books but you're barking up the wrong tree here. Most of the members in the four Janeway threads do not agree with your position so you're just wasting your time trying to convert us all into Janewayites.

Kevin

I don't buy that, you all wouldn't be making the fuss you are if that was the case.

Besides, what we are saying is that we want to buy books, but we want books with a living Janeway, not a dead one.

Brit

 

[Octavia]

Problem is: by whose standards does it fall down? You and I, and quite a few others, may agree that the VOY-R books we'd gotten so far sucked donkey balls, but at the same time they sold very well, like, er, caramel-coated donkey balls. I don't doubt for a minute that everybody involved with the VOY-R books thought they were making a good product, that what we apperceive as faults was, to them, selling points or else irrelevant to the enjoyment of the book. And even here, the VOY-R books has its defenders, because, even beyond the fact that everybody has different tastes, not everybody expects the same thing from Trek fiction. Some like light fiction, and find more involving reads a slog to get through.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

What use literary criticism, eh?

While what you've said is true in its own way, you could say it or similar about any book written, ever, and by extent that there is no bad writing - just people who like reading different things. Even William McGonagall has his fans.

Beautiful Railway Bridge of the Silv'ry Tay!
Alas! I am very sorry to say
That ninety lives have been taken away
On the last Sabbath day of 1879,
Which will be remember'd for a very long time.
.
.
.
Oh! Ill-fated bridge of the silv'ry Tay
I now must conclude my lay
By telling the world fearlessly without the least dismay
That your central girders would not have given way
At least many sensible men do say
Had they been supported on each side with buttresses
At least many sensible men confesses
For the stronger we our houses build
The less chance we have of being killed

By whose standards does this fall down as low quality?

Caveat: No, I am not comparing TrekLit to William McGonagall's tragic poetry. I am pointing out that the argument "some people like it" is not an accurate indicator of quality. How quality can be defined and ensured, buggered if I know.

 

[Ktrek]

You're entitled to your opinion. I may not agree with it. I'm glad that you feel that the Trek Universe is proceeding in a way that you can continue to enjoy.

However, I would like to point out that just because we're arguing for one point does not make us close minded. You're basing that assumption on a few posts made. I've read a few books from the other series and they didn't capture my attention as much as the Voyager books did. Did I enjoy those other books? Some of them yes, other I stopped midway through.

If by stating my opinion that I disliked where the editor/publishers/authors are taking the series IMHO is dragging this along, I will continue to do so.

To quote an early Voyager episode: "And if I don't agree with the majority, then I'm to be locked up for eternity."

Or this case, silenced. The Voyager fans that love Janeway want their voices heard. You can always ignore us.

I certainly don't want to mock others for their views nor do I want that done to me.

I hope that if you chose to respond to this, you answer in the same way you wish me to respond. With respect for each others POV.

But who is it that you want to hear your views? As I've said before you're barking up the wrong tree. If you feel so strongly about it write Pocket Books. Write Paula Block at CBS/Paramount but don't harass the rest of us. We don't deserve to be treated this way. The way you come across is like militant fundamentalists trying to convert the world to your religious worldview, and we don't happen to hold the same view. So why not find a nice group of Voyager fans who are likeminded and get together and discuss things with them?

And in making the comparison to religious persons I don't mean to belittle people of faith either because I am one but I don't go around making trouble and making my viewpoints known. It's one thing to come here and start a discussion about why Janeway should not have been killed but a total other thing to try and militantly change common opinion. We don't want to be converted.

And as for your statement about reading the books how long has it been and what was the last book you have read? If it was longer than 5 years ago Star Trek books are a different breed of storytelling these days. So, to make comparisons on past out-dated experiences may not be valid because Star Trek has moved on.



Kevin

 

[Tachyon]

It is a shame that Voyager has become as insignificant part of TNG books, Voyager re-launch books being what they are, and on the top of that she's killed in a TNG book. Man; I am not feeling that at all. Therefore, I have wondered many times if Voyager should have remained in the DQ instead of returning at home. Now we have three relaunch book series in AQ and what was unique and special about Voyager is gone for good unless someone decides to violate Temporal Prime Directive or something.

Yes! Here I totally agree!

When the series was on air, I wanted them to come home, just like most other Voyager fans.

But in recent years, I've changed my mind about that. They should have stayed in the Delta Quadrant, at "The 37's" planet. They could have helped the people there against possible intruders, Voyager would have become the flagship in their own Starfleet and they could have been helping the people on that planet to create a new Federation in the Delta Quadrant. Now that would have been challenging, wouldn't it?

With that option, we would have had the crew together and ready for new adventures. They could have kept Kes and found a way to add Seven as well.

And yes, I want Janeway alive too!

I would have made them drop out of the Borg conduit before a little bit sooner, perhaps from five to ten years away from the Federation space. The journey would have still continued, but the Earth would have been close enough for them to really start thinking about what it would meant to be back (court martial, Maquis situation, etc.) Poor Tuvok would have still been ill, but perhaps The Doc would have found a cure somewhere along the way. They could have brought back the Vaadwaur, for example. Janeway would have been alive and the crew still together, etc.

 

[ronny]

I would have made them drop out of the Borg conduit before a little bit sooner, perhaps from five to ten years away from the Federation space. The journey would have still continued, but the Earth would have been close enough for them to really start thinking about what it would meant to be back (court martial, Maquis situation, etc.) Poor Tuvok would have still been ill, but perhaps The Doc would have found a cure somewhere along the way. They could have brought back the Vaadwaur, for example. Janeway would have been alive and the crew still together, etc.

I would think the reason they didn't do that was because about the last things on the minds of the runners of the TV shows is how they wrap up the show would affect the books.

 

[Semah]

I would have made them drop out of the Borg conduit before a little bit sooner, perhaps from five to ten years away from the Federation space. The journey would have still continued, but the Earth would have been close enough for them to really start thinking about what it would meant to be back (court martial, Maquis situation, etc.) Poor Tuvok would have still been ill, but perhaps The Doc would have found a cure somewhere along the way. They could have brought back the Vaadwaur, for example. Janeway would have been alive and the crew still together, etc.

I would think the reason they didn't do that was because about the last things on the minds of the runners of the TV shows is how they wrap up the show would affect the books.

Ding!

 

[ronny]

I don't get this. People can whine and moan over and over again how the books suck because Janeway is dead, the writers are misogynist hacks, etc but if someone goes to the Voyager forum and says they don't like Voyager that are slapped down for trolling.

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=2581057&postcount=21

What gives? How is that more trolling than what we're seeing here?

 

[Lynx]

And just tell me why a person that wants to read books about Janeway is going have any satisfaction from the Last Book? Get real. How many times must we say this? We do not want a dead Janeway. If you cannot think of any stories to write about her fine, but she isn't a disposible character that no one cares about.

And once again I will say "Women are not interchangeable."

And no I will not buy another Trek book, until Janeway is back and back properly in the same condition she was in in "Nemesis".

Brit

I agree.

Kirsten Beyer wrote:

Lynx,

In case you're ever sitting around and wondering why I have no interest in discussing this topic with you, the answer can be found in your above quote. Snarky, petty comments like this one are laced throughout all of your posts on this subject. As a writer, you should get the significance and potential impact of tone.

Really sad. I thought that it would be possible to have an honest and cordial discussion about this.
And my comment to Thrawn was a little joke since he actually responded to my questions to you.

As for being "snarky", I'm not the only one.

 

[Lynx]

I don't get this. People can whine and moan over and over again how the books suck because Janeway is dead, the writers are misogynist hacks, etc but if someone goes to the Voyager forum and says they don't like Voyager that are slapped down for trolling.

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=2581057&postcount=21

What gives? How is that more trolling than what we're seeing here?

There is a difference.

If a poster goes to the Voyager forum with the one and only purpose to write some nasty comments about the show in order to get an angry response from the Voyager fans and to start a conflict, then it's definitely trolling.

What we have here is not people who are trying to create a conflict just for the sake of having a conflict by bashing certain books, authors or Pocket Books itself. What we have here is a discussion about if it was really necessary to permanently kill off a main character and the reasons for the fans who criticize that decision is not to troll or start conflict but to state their dissapointment over a decision made in the Pocket Book headquarters. It can't be regarded as "trolling".

As for the Voyager fans, we are very split-up when it comes to different aspects of the show Some of us like seasons 1-3, some of us likes seasons 4-7, some of us likes different characters and there is a lot of arguing between us about those diffferent aspects of the show.

But we do have a tendency to stick together when it comes to defending the show against outside bashers.

 

[Therin of Andor]

And just tell me why a person that wants to read books about Janeway is going have any satisfaction from the Last Book? Get real.

Did Hercule Poiroit fans boycott Agatha Christie's final Poirot novel, "Curtain!", which includes his demise? Nope. I seem to remember it creating a lot of excitement when it was released.

I seem to recall great excitement about "the Last" Hitchhikers' and Dirk Gently books. Each time there was "a Last Book" - even after Dougles Adams died, leaving one unfinished.

I also recall the proposed fan boycott of ST II if Spock died, but that was a fizzer when the boycotters went to see the movie anyway, even before they knew that ST III was a certainty and that Spock would, indeed, return from the grave.