Just finished Before Dishonor...

[Jean-Luc Picard]

I still contend it's the best TNG-relaunch book before Destiny, as long as you look at it as a standalone story. Most of the problems arise because of inconsistent characterization with prior novels, or repetitiveness with prior & later novels, etc. On its own, though, I genuinely think all the characterizations work (except for possibly Worf), especially Picard who I think is hilarious and a bit darker, which is exactly how I imagined him after Data's death. They may not be the same characters we see before and after, and that's worthy of criticism, but on its own I really think the book is pretty fantastic.

But it can't really be viewed as a standalone novel - the TNG relaunch isn't like the old numbered books, it is (or at least, it has been thus far) presented in a more serialised format. "Before Dishonor" clearly picks up on previous story threads and leads into follow-on story threads that are continued in other books.

 

[chris32482]

Spoiler: BD Question-with spoiler

Why would the Borg be interested in Pluto? Especially since its mostly ice... does it say why they bothered "eating" Pluto?

Spoiler: before dishonor

No reason really. It was just in their way i guess. You see, the Borg Cube in Before Dishonor has the ability to absorb matter and energy, making itself grow bigger.

 

[ClayinCA]

The new crew in Before Dishonor aren't characters so much as cheap tension generators. They have no depth, and what little characterization there is clashes badly with what previous books had established.

Do you mean that specifically in Before Dishonor, the characters weren't, well, characters? If so, I agree with you, which is one of my problems with the book (which, like many here, I didn't hate - I just didn't like it either); Leybenzon, Kodohata, et. al., were fully developed in previous books, but were little more than cardboard cut-outs in Before Dishonor, and such damage was done to Leybenzon and Kadohata that they pretty much had to be discarded after this book.

I think more people were put off because they thought David had a tendency to use humor that wasn't particularly funny.

That was my problem as well. The jokes were heavy-handed and ill-timed, and at times almost made the book seem like a parody.

I still contend it's the best TNG-relaunch book before Destiny, as long as you look at it as a standalone story. Most of the problems arise because of inconsistent characterization with prior novels, or repetitiveness with prior & later novels, etc. On its own, though, I genuinely think all the characterizations work (except for possibly Worf), especially Picard who I think is hilarious and a bit darker, which is exactly how I imagined him after Data's death. They may not be the same characters we see before and after, and that's worthy of criticism, but on its own I really think the book is pretty fantastic.

While I disagree with you on the whole (I think it's far from the best TNG-relaunch book--for me, that's either Q & A or Greater Than The Sum), I do agree with some of your other points (especially concerning Picard's darker characterisation), and you're right on the ball about Worf being seriously off - it's as though none of Worf's character evolution since TNG has happened at all. And Spock is absolutely spot on; I think Peter David has consistently been one of the best writers at capturing the post-TMP, post-resurrection Spock, with his slightly more relaxed attitude.

 

[William Leisner]

Leybenzon, Kodohata, et. al., were fully developed in previous books, but were little more than cardboard cut-outs in Before Dishonor, and such damage was done to Leybenzon and Kadohata that they pretty much had to be discarded after this book.

I think you mean Leybenzon and T'Lana; Miranda Kadohata is still around through the Destiny trilogy and beyond.

 

[Therin of Andor]

My only problems remain the characterization of Kadohata - who was an 'E-D old-time', so a lot of her stuff doesn't make sense. She shouldn't be the outsider she's presented as, and that's a pretty big flub.

I really didn't mind her being used this way. Some of this was clumsy handling, but... she'd just come back from an extended leave, and had new additions to her family but was not able to be with them - and she may never have been part of the camaraderie of the old bridge crew, even though she knew them and had worked with them. Sometimes people can isolate themselves from their old group, and the not-mutiny certainly crystallized these feelings. (I say "not-mutiny" because she was following orders.)

What will be interesting for Kadohata in the future will be new novels and short stories set within TNG's TV years - and seeing exactly what her character is like when retconned into earlier times.

 

[kimc]

Basically BD didn't depict what I consider to be the Borg we are used to seeing, the Enterprise crew we are use to seeing, Picard, Worf, Janeway etc. Then of course there's the comical cartoonish nature of its depiction that I felt was out of place in the 'real' universe. Whereas in Myriad Universes I'd have no preconceived notions of what the characters or the Borg or even how silly the events should be.

I flipped through the book enough (I'm very fast reader, btw) to notice that everyone seemed out of character which is why I didn't purchase it. Finding out later about the you know what didn't make me want to buy it or another Pocket book. Maybe someday Pocket will change their editorial direction and I'll start reading their Trek books again.

 

[Thrawn]

Basically BD didn't depict what I consider to be the Borg we are used to seeing, the Enterprise crew we are use to seeing, Picard, Worf, Janeway etc. Then of course there's the comical cartoonish nature of its depiction that I felt was out of place in the 'real' universe. Whereas in Myriad Universes I'd have no preconceived notions of what the characters or the Borg or even how silly the events should be.

I flipped through the book enough (I'm very fast reader, btw) to notice that everyone seemed out of character which is why I didn't purchase it. Finding out later about the you know what didn't make me want to buy it or another Pocket book. Maybe someday Pocket will change their editorial direction and I'll start reading their Trek books again.

Oh, so you're one of these people for whom the death (or, rather, becoming a Q-like entity) of one character constitutes an "editorial direction" for a universe of several hundred main characters...one of whom, I might add, was recently brought back from an onscreen death at the hands of the very same editor.

Goody.

 

[Ktrek]

I flipped through the book enough (I'm very fast reader, btw) to notice that everyone seemed out of character which is why I didn't purchase it. Finding out later about the you know what didn't make me want to buy it or another Pocket book. Maybe someday Pocket will change their editorial direction and I'll start reading their Trek books again.

Here we go again! *sigh*

You can't tell me that flipping through the book you got much of anything from it. You're just trying to justify in your own mind your self-imposed boycott. No loss. There will always be another to come behind you and pick up the slack who will love what you don't.

Kevin

 

[Semah]

Basically BD didn't depict what I consider to be the Borg we are used to seeing, the Enterprise crew we are use to seeing, Picard, Worf, Janeway etc. Then of course there's the comical cartoonish nature of its depiction that I felt was out of place in the 'real' universe. Whereas in Myriad Universes I'd have no preconceived notions of what the characters or the Borg or even how silly the events should be.

I flipped through the book enough (I'm very fast reader, btw) to notice that everyone seemed out of character which is why I didn't purchase it. Finding out later about the you know what didn't make me want to buy it or another Pocket book. Maybe someday Pocket will change their editorial direction and I'll start reading their Trek books again.

Oh, so you're one of these people for whom the death (or, rather, becoming a Q-like entity) of one character constitutes an "editorial direction" for a universe of several hundred main characters...one of whom, I might add, was recently brought back from an onscreen death at the hands of the very same editor.

Goody.

I never get that argument anyway. I also think that Before Dishonor was lacking, but this would not stop me from reading other books in the line.

Were that the case, I'd have stopped after chapter three of Resistance.

 

[William Leisner]

Here we go again! *sigh*

Perhaps if we didn't immediately start heaping fuel on this fire, we wouldn't have to "go again"...

 

[ClayinCA]

Leybenzon, Kodohata, et. al., were fully developed in previous books, but were little more than cardboard cut-outs in Before Dishonor, and such damage was done to Leybenzon and Kadohata that they pretty much had to be discarded after this book.

I think you mean Leybenzon and T'Lana; Miranda Kadohata is still around through the Destiny trilogy and beyond.

You are absolutely right - whoops! I did actually mean to indicate that in my post, but I wasn't paying attention to myself (which occasionally helps, frankly). Guess that's what I get for posting at work!

Finding out later about the you know what didn't make me want to buy it or another Pocket book. Maybe someday Pocket will change their editorial direction and I'll start reading their Trek books again.

I'm...I'm having flashbacks to a recently closed thread....

Here we go again! *sigh*

Perhaps if we didn't immediately start heaping fuel on this fire, we wouldn't have to "go again"...

And again, you're quite right. Apologies.

 

[kimc]

Oh, so you're one of these people for whom the death (or, rather, becoming a Q-like entity) of one character constitutes an "editorial direction" for a universe of several hundred main characters...one of whom, I might add, was recently brought back from an onscreen death at the hands of the very same editor.

That would be an assumption. You don't know a thing about me. Next!

You can't tell me that flipping through the book you got much of anything from it.

Sure I can. In fact, I just did. Next!

All done? Great. Everyone and I mean EVERYONE has a right to an opinion. The fact is there are fans from other boards who refuse to post here even though they also have opinions on the books but they don't because they don't believe their opinions would be welcome. Gee, wonder why?

 

[captcalhoun]

well, they're welcome to post as long as they can rationally argue their case and not just whine about how their favourite character was killed off and never actually contribute to a discussion beyond whinging, whining, moaning, griping and bitching about said character's death and belittling evveryone who wrote, edited or bought said book featuring said death.

 

[kimc]

well, they're welcome to post as long as they can rationally argue their case and not just whine about how their favourite character was killed off and never actually contribute to a discussion beyond whinging, whining, moaning, griping and bitching about said character's death and belittling evveryone who wrote, edited or bought said book featuring said death.

And just how is your post contributing to the conversation? Aren't you in fact whining, moaning, griping and bitching about other posters?

 

[captcalhoun]

no it's saying people are welcome here from any where.

 

[kimc]

no it's saying people are welcome here from any where.

Fair enough.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Everyone and I mean EVERYONE has a right to an opinion. The fact is there are fans from other boards who refuse to post here even though they also have opinions on the books but they don't because they don't believe their opinions would be welcome. Gee, wonder why?

Okay, if we all agreed to tone down our reactions whenever responding to a brand new visitor to this board, so us not to give them an inkling that their opinions might not be our own, how is that useful?

It seems to me that if a new poster is hesitant about defending their point of view, then that's a problem with the poster, not with the people they are debating with. The regulars here rarely agree with each other. It's not as if we unite to gang up on new posters. Every opinion will have a range of reactions. As in real life.

 

[Brit]

I flipped through the book enough (I'm very fast reader, btw) to notice that everyone seemed out of character which is why I didn't purchase it. Finding out later about the you know what didn't make me want to buy it or another Pocket book. Maybe someday Pocket will change their editorial direction and I'll start reading their Trek books again.

Here we go again! *sigh*

You can't tell me that flipping through the book you got much of anything from it. You're just trying to justify in your own mind your self-imposed boycott. No loss. There will always be another to come behind you and pick up the slack who will love what you don't.

Kevin

No you are trying to justify your own position by placing the responsibility of making your argument on the very people that are opposed to your position, those that have every right not to like a plot line.

So yes we can decline to purchase this book, it's our money. You cannot tell us how to spend it and we will not spend it on "Dead Janeway" not no way, not no how. The premise alone is enough to get it boycotted and anything else in that story line.

You haven't a leg to stand on when it comes to rights. And yes we can defend our point of view. We don't like it period, we do not have to defend it either. Your little digs that one has to read this book, or one has to accept your idea of what it the right direction before we can make a point is ludicrous.

It's time both you and Pocket Books realize that there is a whole fandom out there that has been ridiculed and driven off the Trek BBS. Well we are back now, and we are going to repeat how distastful this story line is every chance we get.

captcalhoun, the last time I looked this is a board that is supposed to welcome anyone and right here in this thread it's pretty obvious that you have no tolerance for anyones opinion but your own. You wouldn't know a rational argument if it bit you ...well you know where.

The most irrational thing I have heard here is the demand that someone buy a book that they would hate in order to tell anyone that they don't like the plot. That's self defeating, and hon we were not born yesterday.

Finally ClayinCA, you avatar alone drives Janeway fans off, it's already been discussed on another board and our feeling is that it should be removed, but I am not an Admin or Mod here (and yes I am on other Boards and yes that is plural) so all I can do is report it to the Mods of this forum.

Brit

 

[Brit]

The regulars here rarely agree with each other. It's not as if we unite to gang up on new posters. Every opinion will have a range of reactions. As in real life.

Actually you do, and Janeway fans have been treated that way for years. It's time it stopped.

Brit

 

[Semah]

The regulars here rarely agree with each other. It's not as if we unite to gang up on new posters. Every opinion will have a range of reactions. As in real life.

Actually you do, and Janeway fans have been treated that way for years. It's time it stopped.

Brit

You know, we went on and on about this in a ridiculously long thread already, and whereas it was entertaining as hell, do we really need to go down this road again?