What happened to the Christian church?

[CaptainHawk1]

^ To be fair, it's not right to say "The Atheists" as if they're all a part of one organization. I mean, there are Christians who lie, cheat, steal and run people off the road, but you don't mix them in with all Christians. Some atheists have a problem with religion in every incarnation, but most atheists tend to live more of a "Let bygones be bygones" sort of arrangement. There are a number of militant few, and you will find them all across the spectrum, whether they be atheist or religious.

J.

Yes but he was talking about those on the TrekBBS. Don't know if he's been to TNZ but he's right and you know it.

I too am talking about this board. There are some very fair minded and considerate atheists here. Miss Chicken for one. The problem is when people get pushed, and yes both sides can do it. If you'll notice, most atheists on this board don't say anything until someone else starts something, and that includes TNZ. All it takes is a "you'll find out when God judges you", and off it goes.

That's absolutely not true and I'm not talking about TNZ as I won't even request passage there as I haven't in 7 years because it was a free-for-all then.

The Atheists on the regular boards instigate all of the trouble. You show me one link outside of TNZ where a person of Faith, unprovoked, instigated an attack on another poster based on a difference of Faith or a lacktherof.

You can't because it doesn't happen. In fact it's exactly the opposite of what happens. To make matters worse, people of Faith don't even rise to the bait. They simply take the abuse and try to only explain themselves and their beliefs and try to correct the mischaracterizations leveled by the Atheists. They NEVER go on the attack, not even to defend themselves. They have too much dignity.

If you've seen my posts, I'm sure you realize by now that I have very strong and quite often abrasive opinions and I'm certainly no shrinking violet. But even I would NEVER get into with a poster because of their Faith or lack of. And like the other people of Faith on this board, I won't rise to the bait and get into a pissing match with someone attacking my Faith.

The high praise for Miss Chicken is unwarranted and misguided. She has repeatedly made comments that attack people of Faith. On one level, you're right, I can't paint all of the Atheists on this board with the same brush but I can certainly paint most of them with it. The ones I can't paint are the ones who keep it to themselves but there isn't an Atheist on this board that isn't not only vocal in their Atheism but vocal in their hostility, disgust and disdain toward people of Faith. They look for opportunities to mock us even when religion isn't brought up.

Here's a wonderful example of that. I started a thread a couple of weeks a go about science closing in on a cloak of invisibility and I commented how the article focused on Harry Potter instead of star Trek and this is the response I got from Deks.

There is a good possibility that Potter is more socially acceptable compared to Trek.

That is disturbing that fantasy revolving around wizards and magic is more socially acceptable than fantasy that revolves around science.

-Shawn

Religion for example falls pretty much into the category of fantasy in my opinion, and numerous people seem to prefer THAT to common sense and science.

What...

The Fuck...

Was that?

The thread and my comment had nothing to do with religion yet Deks has to take a potshot at it for no reason.

Quite frankly, I agree with them on that. How would you like it if Christianity was a minor religion, and 80% of the people around you told you that eternal hell was your destination unless you believed in Allah and Mohammed as His prophet? You'd be telling people to dial it back, and quit getting in your face. You do it already, and you're part of a faith that is professed by 72% of the United States alone.

Personally, I don't give two shits. They need to grow the fuck up already. I live in the city with the highest per capita number of churches in the country and I'm never inundated with constant bombardment of people trying to push their Faith on me. I get the occasional Mormon every now and then, but hardly anyone subscribes to the "you're going to burn in eternal Hellfire if you don't believe" nonsense anymore and they certainly don't shove that down people's throats.

Seriously, what are you talking about? 99% of people of Faith don't proselytize and Catholics certainly don't. Our feeling is that you have to come to Christ on your own, not because you were pitched.

It's certainly not done on this board, so unless you can provide actual proof of this behavior please refrain from making shit up and blustering because it's a bunch of nonsense.

You know me, and I try to be as fair and even handed with people as possible, because I would like the same in return. Yet there are atheists who call me ignorant and deluded. Do I paint every atheist with the title of close minded bigot? No, because I realize the actual number is so small, it's not worth writing off an entire group of people.

J.

It doesn't matter how many there are. What matters is the amount of abuse they dish out unchecked towards the rest of us on a daily basis. I personally don't care what your approach to these people or level of tolerance is. I'm fed up and so are alot of other people here.

-Shawn

 

[Amaris]

That's absolutely not true and I'm not talking about TNZ as I won't even request passage there as I haven't in 7 years because it was a free-for-all then.

Are you sure it's absolutely not true? Not a single atheist on this board is fair and open minded? Do you really want to hold to that outburst?

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=2539240&postcount=28

One example. I have more.

The Atheists on the regular boards instigate all of the trouble. You show me one link outside of TNZ where a person of Faith, unprovoked, instigated an attack on another poster based on a difference of Faith or a lacktherof.

Ah, see, I was referring to TNZ. Since you aren't registered there, you don't see what goes on there, and I can't show you anything from there because:

1) What happens in TNZ stays in TNZ.
2) If I link it, you still won't be able to see it.

However, here's one in Sci&Tech:
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=80493&highlight=atheist


I'm also noticing in many threads you seem to go on the offensive quickly. People who simply say that they don't understand or don't agree with the faith and you start in. Like here:

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=2527687&postcount=9

Here too:
http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=2528809&postcount=18

You can't because it doesn't happen.

I hate when someone asks me a question or challenges me and then presumes that I can't answer it. It shows a serious level of insecurity.
If you present a challenge, let me answer it and don't think I won't address it, because I will.

In fact it's exactly the opposite of what happens. To make matters worse, people of Faith don't even rise to the bait.

Are you kidding? You alone do it nearly every time an atheist or agnostic has a comment you don't agree with. Type your name into the search engine and type atheist in the words box, hit the "Search Now" button. There are many more, like Dayton3, TheLonelySquire, Lookingglassman, and they fire back viciously, just like you do, even toward atheists who haven't said a word about it.

They simply take the abuse and try to only explain themselves and their beliefs and try to correct the mischaracterizations leveled by the Atheists. They NEVER go on the attack, not even to defend themselves. They have too much dignity.

I just showed posts where you go on the attack, especially to defend yourself. Not convinced? Here's another one in Websites:

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=2473551&postcount=5

An atheist was wondering about the use of "In the year of our Lord" on a website for introverts, and atheist introverts may have been put off by it. Your response?

"Who gives a crap what they think? If they don't like it, they can go to another website. "

It wasn't even your website neither was it directed to you, but boy did you feel like throwing your two cents in to that person who was only asking a question.

If you've seen my posts, I'm sure you realize by now that I have very strong and quite often abrasive opinions and I'm certainly no shrinking violet. But even I would NEVER get into with a poster because of their Faith or lack of. And like the other people of Faith on this board, I won't rise to the bait and get into a pissing match with someone attacking my Faith.

See aforementioned posts.

The high praise for Miss Chicken is unwarranted and misguided. She has repeatedly made comments that attack people of Faith. On one level, you're right, I can't paint all of the Atheists on this board with the same brush but I can certainly paint most of them with it. The ones I can't paint are the ones who keep it to themselves but there isn't an Atheist on this board that isn't not only vocal in their Atheism but vocal in their hostility, disgust and disdain toward people of Faith. They look for opportunities to mock us even when religion isn't brought up.

So the next time you bring up your faith, they can rightfully smack you down? Maybe if you kept it to yourself they'd leave you alone? Sound fair? If not, then look at what you're saying.

Here's a wonderful example of that. I started a thread a couple of weeks a go about science closing in on a cloak of invisibility and I commented how the article focused on Harry Potter instead of star Trek and this is the response I got from Deks.



What...

The Fuck...

Was that?

The thread and my comment had nothing to do with religion yet Deks has to take a potshot at it for no reason.

What? He didn't take a potshot at religion at all. All he said was in his opinion it was fantasy. Don't you consider Zeus, Odin, and many other gods to be fantasy and false? If so, you'd be taking potshots at pantheists. He offered his opinion on his idea of fantasy. You opened that opportunity by discussing fantasy and wizardy via Harry Potter. He simply followed through with a comment. You take offense way too easily.

Personally, I don't give two shits.

And yet you complain here. So I'm not apt to believe you.

They need to grow the fuck up already.

At this moment, they're not the ones throwing a temper tantrum.

I live in the city with the highest per capita number of churches in the country and I'm never inundated with constant bombardment of people trying to push their Faith on me. I get the occasional Mormon every now and then, but hardly anyone subscribes to the "you're going to burn in eternal Hellfire if you don't believe" nonsense anymore and they certainly don't shove that down people's throats.

Perhaps where you live, but you know full well that's not the case everywhere. I live in the Bible belt, and if you're not at church on Sunday, people WILL talk to you about it.

Seriously, what are you talking about? 99% of people of Faith don't proselytize and Catholics certainly don't.

That percentage sounds awfully high.
What does the Southern Baptist Convention say?

http://www.sbclife.org/articles/2001/10/sla6.asp
The number given in the article is 51%.

Number of Southern Baptists in the U.S. as of 2004: 47,744,049
51% of 47,744,049: 23,872,024.
Population of the U.S. in 2004: 259,000,000 or approx. 11%.
Keep in mind this does not include Mormons, Jews for Jesus, Roman Catholics, or Pentecostals, who all have a mission of proselytizing in the United States and around the world.

Our feeling is that you have to come to Christ on your own, not because you were pitched.

It's certainly not done on this board, so unless you can provide actual proof of this behavior please refrain from making shit up and blustering because it's a bunch of nonsense.

I'm not blustering and it certainly is done on this board. I just provided your proof above.

It doesn't matter how many there are.

It seemed to matter earlier in your post.

What matters is the amount of abuse they dish out unchecked towards the rest of us on a daily basis. I personally don't care what your approach to these people or level of tolerance is. I'm fed up and so are alot of other people here.

-Shawn

It seems to me you're the one with the chip on your shoulder.
Have you noticed that your hostile behavior probably causes a certain level of retaliation? People make a comment and you jump all over it like they stabbed you in the back. You have a severe persecution complex, and it's quite evident in this thread alone. There are many, many other posts where you do this same thing.


J.

 

[CaptainHawk1]

That's absolutely not true and I'm not talking about TNZ as I won't even request passage there as I haven't in 7 years because it was a free-for-all then.

Are you sure it's absolutely not true? Not a single atheist on this board is fair and open minded? Do you really want to hold to that outburst?

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=2539240&postcount=28

One example. I have more.

MORE DISHONESTY FROM J. ALLEN

Oh, so just ignore what I said about not TNZ. But anyway, that's not what I said. What I said is that all of the Atheists that choose to be vocal about their Atheism are also hostile to people of Faith. But you can keep on twisting what I said if it gets you through the night.

The Atheists on the regular boards instigate all of the trouble. You show me one link outside of TNZ where a person of Faith, unprovoked, instigated an attack on another poster based on a difference of Faith or a lacktherof.

Ah, see, I was referring to TNZ. Since you aren't registered there, you don't see what goes on there, and I can't show you anything from there because:

1) What happens in TNZ stays in TNZ.
2) If I link it, you still won't be able to see it.

MORE DISHONESTY FROM J. ALLEN

Oh, if what goes on in TNZ stays in TNZ, how is that relevant to the hostility towards peopel of Faith on the rest of the bbs?

However, here's one in Sci&Tech:
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=80493&highlight=atheist

Congratulations, you found one thread that had a flaming title and was immediately shutdown. Which is a far different result from the other threads that are started with the premise of attacking Faith and are allowed to stay open for as long as the Atheists need to mock all people of Faith.

I'm also noticing in many threads you seem to go on the offensive quickly. People who simply say that they don't understand or don't agree with the faith and you start in. Like here:

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=2527687&postcount=9

Here too:
http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=2528809&postcount=18



I hate when someone asks me a question or challenges me and then presumes that I can't answer it. It shows a serious level of insecurity.
If you present a challenge, let me answer it and don't think I won't address it, because I will.

But that's the problem, you haven't addressed shit. You're showing my posts out of context where I'm saying the exact same things that I'm saying here. Why don't you man up and show the whole thread. I'll tell you what, since you obviously have no ability to be intellectually honest at all, I'll do it for you.

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?p=2527687#post2527687

The title of which is "Why are so many Trek fans skittish about Trek's secular aproach?"

and had this as the OP.

When you think about it, working together and doing right by your fellow man because it is the RIGHT thing to do and not because it will guarantee you paradise or 72 virgins or whatever after you die is a noble goal that transcends any and all religious dogma. Also, living your life in however you want to, so as long as it doesn't encroach on someone else's in any way, is also something to attain. So why all the hate over a secular society?

That's not antagonistic at all is it?

Nor is this in post #4 ,is it?

Because the truth hurts.

MORE DISHONESTY FROM J. ALLEN

That second post you cited was 18 posts into the thread in response to an attack. Every other post beforethat was an attempt to explain for those who needed clairification.

Are you kidding? You alone do it nearly every time an atheist or agnostic has a comment you don't agree with. Type your name into the search engine and type atheist in the words box, hit the "Search Now" button. There are many more, like Dayton3, TheLonelySquire, Lookingglassman, and they fire back viciously, just like you do, even toward atheists who haven't said a word about it.

I just showed posts where you go on the attack, especially to defend yourself. Not convinced? Here's another one in Websites:

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=2473551&postcount=5

MORE DISHONESTY FROM J. ALLEN

Let's go back to the my last post in this thread and actually read it, shall we?

If you've seen my posts, I'm sure you realize by now that I have very strong and quite often abrasive opinions and I'm certainly no shrinking violet. But even I would NEVER get into with a poster because of their Faith or lack of. And like the other people of Faith on this board, I won't rise to the bait and get into a pissing match with someone attacking my Faith.

I never claimed that I don't defend myself and I certainly never claimed that I don't go on the attack after being personally attacked or having my Faith attacked. I said that I don't engage arguments about Faith or lacktherof. The problem I have, as I've repeatedly stated, is with the attacks and thats what I go after. I'm not going argue Faith with someone, though and if you can't make the distinction, I can't help you.

I noticed you decided to post that first exchange between trevanian and I but not the second one.

First, I never claimed to be atheist (I'm agnostic.) I simply respect them, and figuring agnosticism is considered by christians to be nearly as untrustworthy (between faith and food choices -- I'm vegan -- I'm a minority of a minority of a minority, hated by everyone) as saying 'no god.'

After the typical science/spirituality mindfuck issues, I reached a comfortable ease as far as spirituality in my 20s (my truth is that there isn't one truth but we can define ourselves and act truthfully regardless), and haven't had too many crises with respect to that since. No proseltyzing though. It has for the most part extended to others with the caveat, 'believe what you want, just don't do it aggressively out in the street and frighten the horses.' But my experience of christian fundamentalists (you're quite right that I shouldn't have said republican and american, it was kneejerk of me, I should have specified) is that you become an ongoing target once you're perceived as different, and it is a bellicose response. The idea that this kind of group can sustain a hatred greater than they have for gays staggers me, because you'd figure they couldn't be more extreme than that.

I AM dismissive of a lot of folks who seem to need organized religion as a crutch, but I'm more fearful of the hatred those groups conjure up, against those with different beliefs (including 'none of the above'), because I've seen way too much crap go down with people losing jobs over it as a root cause and not being able to fight it. Shoot, I made the mistake of taking a job managing a bookstore operated by a supposedly secular order in the 90s, and whaddya know, I'm no longer the golden boy when I decline their offers to sit in with the masons. They weren't any more enlightened or progressive than the fundamentalists, but they covered it with a kind of elitism. If that's the kind of message I gave off, I apologize.

Understood, and apology accepted, and I apologize for assuming that you were an atheist but that's how it came off. As far as my own Faith is concerned, I'm Roman Catholic and quite proud of it. OTOH, it's not my responsibility to proselytize anyone. We have missionaries that do that around the world and Catholics (like Jews) feel in general that each individual needs to have their own personal "come to Jesus" moment (well, Jews don't call it that but the sentiment is the same). Yes, they will act as missionaries around the world to help the poor and downtrodden (charity is one of the most fundamental tenets of Catholicism) and in the process preach the Word, but we don't deny anyone help, compassion or love if they don't convert and we generally don't deal in fear (It really doesn't make sense as Christ/God is about love, not punishment and damnation). Catholics are far more concerned with spreading the Word then bringing more people into our flock. The Eternal Word of Christ should be enough without further coaxing from our flawed, mortal humanity.

As far as being agnostic goes, I completely understand being agnostic and I certainly don't begrudge you for it and any Catholic (or Christian) who claims that there's something wrong or damning about being agnostic is being completely disingenuous because every Catholic has been agnostic at some point in their life. It's simply impossible not to question ... we're human. It's a crisis of Faith and there's nothing wrong with it and Christians in general need to understand that simply saying "I don't know" and wanting concrete evidence is part of human nature and isn't sinful. To be honest I'm probably agnostic half a dozen times a day but my Faith wins over my human frailty.

I've also got another advantage in that I've experienced evidence that has confirmed my Faith but that's another story for another day.

I hate to point fingers but your opinions about fundamentalist Christians are understandable and even though I respect their Faith, I don't agree with many of their interpretations of the Word. For Goodness' sake, even the Catholic Church has signed on to the Big Bang Theory and Evolution (as they are both completely compatible with Christianity). I'm getting off-track a bit here, but a lot of their stances do make the rest of us Christians look bad and the myth is that they represent Christianity as whole in the U.S. and they do not. Even in the U.S. Catholics make up the largest group of Christians.

I also agree with you about people who use religion as a crutch. There are some people who do that because they lack any self-worth and those are the people who generally are easily recruited into the more fundamentalist denominations. I saw a post recently and I think was from Apostle where his girlfriend broke up with him over a minor disagreement over a minor interpretation of their fundamentalist doctrine. Now, I'm the first one to say that issues of Faith in the big picture are important in relationships and should be deal-breakers, but not the minutae... that's just foolish and to me that shows a very spiritually immature person who is using religion as a crutch.

As far as Truth is concerned, I disagree with you. There is One Truth but it's completely elusive to human beings simply because we lack the capacity to be able to comprehend it at this stage in our existence.

The last thing I want to leave you with is that often Faith and religion are confused as being the same and they are not. When I was 18, I had a conversation with my father in which I intimated that I was dissatisfied with the dichotomy of the Church on several issues. My father explained to me the problem wasn't the Church, the problem is that the people who run the Church are flawed human beings. The point is that there's nothing wrong with the Faith, it's the idiots running the thing because they are inherently flawed because they're human. He also explained to me that it's up to good people to not abandon the Church, but to work to change the Church for the better so that it can attempt to live up to the ideals of Christ better.

Atheists and agnostics need to cut people of Faith some slack. We're just as flawed as the rest of you and we're just trying to get through it the best we can as well. We're not perfect and we're generally not self-righteous. Unfortunately, and i freely admit this, there is a small minority who look down at you with disdain, but inever see it at the Trekbbs. I certainly don't happen to be one of those people (and the majority of people of Faith aren't either) and with all love in my heart I say that I pray that you and any other agnostics or atheists find in your heart the same peace and knowledge that I and others have found. Either way we wish you nothing but good will.

Now, can we go back to bitching about the Reboot?

-Shawn

An atheist was wondering about the use of "In the year of our Lord" on a website for introverts, and atheist introverts may have been put off by it. Your response?

"Who gives a crap what they think? If they don't like it, they can go to another website. "

It wasn't even your website neither was it directed to you, but boy did you feel like throwing your two cents in to that person who was only asking a question.

MORE DISHONESTY FROM J. ALLEN
Let's take a look at the original post and the "innocent musing" about "Year of Our Lord" on the website, shall we?

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?p=2473551#post2473551

Very cluttered, looks like nearly 100% advertising, and what should atheist introverts think when confronted by the phrase "Year of Our Lord"?

Nooooooo, nothing hostile about the phrase "confronted by the phrase 'Year of Our Lord'"

Oh, yeah.... and the subsequent post that you conveniently chose to not only leave out, but hide.

And whether you guys like it or not regarding the "Year of our Lord" or "Common Era" issue... the fact is that some atheists are offended by ANY assumption that there even was a "Lord" upon whom to base a calendar.

I'm not that bad, but thanks so much for making me feel unwelcome at your website (whether or not you get it fixed up properly).

I will indeed go elsewhere...

Yeah, nothing hostile about using the phrase "offended by ANY assumption that there even was a "Lord" upon whom to base a calendar."

See aforementioned posts.

So the next time you bring up your faith, they can rightfully smack you down? Maybe if you kept it to yourself they'd leave you alone? Sound fair? If not, then look at what you're saying.

MORE DISHONESTY FROM J. ALLEN

I don't bring it up unless it's attacked and fact I kept to myself until all of the Atheists made it their job to attack Faith and people of Faith.

What? He didn't take a potshot at religion at all. All he said was in his opinion it was fantasy. Don't you consider Zeus, Odin, and many other gods to be fantasy and false? If so, you'd be taking potshots at pantheists. He offered his opinion on his idea of fantasy. You opened that opportunity by discussing fantasy and wizardy via Harry Potter. He simply followed through with a comment. You take offense way too easily.

MORE DISHONESTY FROM J. ALLEN

Yeah he did, and he did in the following post as well, which you won't show.

I clearly stated that some people often resort to religion instead of science which a lot of the time (but not always) ends in them making stupid judgments/assumptions/decisions.
Point was that the majority of the population prefers simplistic and less 'brainy' things.

Noooooooooooooo... there's nothing antagonistic about comparing religion to fucking Harry Potter is there?

No problem at all painting people who resort to religion instead of science as making "stupid judgments/assumptions/decisions"

and then in the same breath stating that "the majority of the population prefers simplistic and less 'brainy' things" Gee, I wonder who he was referring to there?

Personally, I don't give two shits.

And yet you complain here. So I'm not apt to believe you.

What I don't give two shits about is what you referred to in your post.

Quite frankly, I agree with them on that. How would you like it if Christianity was a minor religion, and 80% of the people around you told you that eternal hell was your destination unless you believed in Allah and Mohammed as His prophet? You'd be telling people to dial it back, and quit getting in your face. You do it already, and you're part of a faith that is professed by 72% of the United States alone.

Which of course falls into the category of MORE DISHONESTY FROM J. ALLEN

I don't give two shits because that's not the situation. They're not inundated on a daily basis in real life or on this board. They 80% of the people that you refer to don't tell anyone that they are destined for eternal hell and my Faith doesn't profess that at all. Learn a little about Catholicism before you spout off.

Perhaps where you live, but you know full well that's not the case everywhere. I live in the Bible belt, and if you're not at church on Sunday, people WILL talk to you about it.

MORE DISHONESTY FROM J. ALLEN

Ohio? The Bible Belt?

Yeah, nice try. I'm from Western NY. My mother's entire family is from Ohio and Ohio is no more Bible belt that Buffalo or Rochester.

Who are these people? I want names, addresses and phone numbers. Put your money where your mouth is.

I can probably guarantee that I've actually been in the real "Bible Belt" more times than you... and I'm just one them goddamned filfthy Yankees.

That percentage sounds awfully high.
What does the Southern Baptist Convention say?

http://www.sbclife.org/articles/2001/10/sla6.asp
The number given in the article is 51%.

Number of Southern Baptists in the U.S. as of 2004: 47,744,049
51% of 47,744,049: 23,872,024.

MORE DISHONESTY FROM J. ALLEN

I read that article and it said nothing about those who actually proselytyze. What I read is that 51% of Baptists think that you should witness which isn't the same thing. But since obviously you don't have the Interent available where you are, proselytizing is recruiting, plain and simple. Witnessing is not recruiting.

But let's just say that for the sake of your poorly researched argument that it is. The article says nothing about those who actually do it. It says that 51% believe that they should. That's a big distinction, don't you think?

Population of the U.S. in 2004: 259,000,000 or approx. 11%.
Keep in mind this does not include Mormons, Jews for Jesus, Roman Catholics, or Pentecostals, who all have a mission of proselytizing in the United States and around the world.

MORE DISHONESTY FROM J. ALLEN

Yeah here's the deal, Catholics make up 70 million of the U.S. population and I'd appreciate it if you not speak for my Church again when you know nothing about it. Our missionaries do not proselytize as I pointed out in that exchange between trevanian and myself that you conveniently ignored. The small amount of them that do the Lord's work (missionaries... you know... helping the poor and downtrodden) preach the Gospel, but they don't recruit. As I've said before, people need to come to Christ on their own, not because of a pitch.

I'm not blustering and it certainly is done on this board. I just provided your proof above.

MORE DISHONESTY FROM J. ALLEN

You wouldn't know objective proof if it came up to you and shook your hand as I've pointed out by the out of context quotes that you referred to.

 

[CaptainHawk1]

It seems to me you're the one with the chip on your shoulder.
Have you noticed that your hostile behavior probably causes a certain level of retaliation? People make a comment and you jump all over it like they stabbed you in the back.

MORE DISHONESTY FROM J. ALLEN


If you actually had the courage to post the threads in their entirety instead of just my posts out of context, it would be quite apparent that my responses are proprtionate with the level of attacks

You have a severe persecution complex, and it's quite evident in this thread alone. There are many, many other posts where you do this same thing.

There's no persecution complex. The situation with trekbbs Atheists is what it is. You're certainly not qualified to make any assessments on my emotional state but since the theme of the day is personal attacks, you can have that one.

I'm a lot smarter than you and a lot more educated than you but if you want to dance again in the future let me know and I'll keep my card open.

-Shawn

 

[Amaris]

Do you honestly think that putting "More Dishonesty From J. Allen" in all caps and bold will make it any more true? Plus, where's the first bit of dishonesty? I've told you the truth this whole time. I don't lie. You, on the other hand, are about to blow a valve. I suggest you calm down. You're behaving like a child.


J.

 

[SPOCKED]

MORE DISHONESTY FROM J. ALLEN

Any more of this nonsense and I'll warn you for trolling. I'd recommend taking a little break from this thread, CH.

 

[Chimpy Chompy]

re: the whole hostile atheists thing

In my experience they are more prone to harsh language or glib dismissals. I think partially down to frustration with irrationality and partially down to, well, being angry nerds.

Believers have more the knack for what's either passive-agressive, or looks like it, maybe down to beliefs being put forward as indisputable absolutes.

No specific examples to hand, just observations on my travels.

 

[LaxScrutiny]

Your disrespect of our beliefs changes nothing. Just because you don't believe, doesn't mean that a belief in a God that has been worshiped for milennia is foolish. Of course, the world makes sense when viewed logically and scientifically, but it's so much more wonderful to view the world as a creation to study and learn from, rather than something that just happened at one point to study and learn from.

I don't believe in a sky pixie or anything so foolish.
I believe that God created the universe in 6 days and rested on the 7th. I believe that He is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. I believe that we were created to glorify God. He gave us free will, and we sinned, and as sinners we could no longer live in the presence of God the Father. He loves us so much that he needed to provide us with a way to return to Him. So He sent Jesus.
If you study the Bible, you will see that every prophecy from the Old Testament about Jesus was fulfilled in the New Testament.
Jesus was perfect, and He took upon Himself the punishment for all of our sins. Everyone . . . even those who have never heard His name. He suffered and died, and came back to life three days later. It was a difficult thing to do . . . He created the universe by speaking it into existence, yet Jesus had to die in order to forgive us.
He did all that for us, so now all we need to do is believe that Jesus came do forgive us, and that he died, and was resurrected, and accept the truth of that forgiveness.

you may read all that and see an illogical story that's so ancient and ridiculous and you'd have to be a fool to believe it, but I am no fool. I do believe in it.

God gave us logic and reason, because that's a part of our free will. The existence of God is plain to see, but it can't be proven . . . what seems like a weakness in the Judeo-Christian worldview, God's existence can't be proven, is a key element to our beliefs . . . because if God could be proven to exist, then our free will would be irrelevant. We have no choice to believe what can be proven scientifically. but that leads into the whole evolution/creation debate etc so I'm afraid that's all the time we have for tonight. Tune in next time!

According to what you have written, your faith isn't in God, it is in the Bible. You believe in the Bible, you follow the Bible, you have faith in the Bible.

Unless God visited you and told you that the Bible was his word, your faith has nothing to do with God. It has everything to do with a book.

 

[RyanKCR]

^ To be fair, it's not right to say "The Atheists" as if they're all a part of one organization. I mean, there are Christians who lie, cheat, steal and run people off the road, but you don't mix them in with all Christians. Some atheists have a problem with religion in every incarnation, but most atheists tend to live more of a "Let bygones be bygones" sort of arrangement. There are a number of militant few, and you will find them all across the spectrum, whether they be atheist or religious.

J.

Yes but he was talking about those on the TrekBBS. Don't know if he's been to TNZ but he's right and you know it.

I too am talking about this board. There are some very fair minded and considerate atheists here. Miss Chicken for one. The problem is when people get pushed, and yes both sides can do it. If you'll notice, most atheists on this board don't say anything until someone else starts something, and that includes TNZ. All it takes is a "you'll find out when God judges you", and off it goes.

Quite frankly, I agree with them on that. How would you like it if Christianity was a minor religion, and 80% of the people around you told you that eternal hell was your destination unless you believed in Allah and Mohammed as His prophet? You'd be telling people to dial it back, and quit getting in your face. You do it already, and you're part of a faith that is professed by 72% of the United States alone.

You know me, and I try to be as fair and even handed with people as possible, because I would like the same in return. Yet there are atheists who call me ignorant and deluded. Do I paint every atheist with the title of close minded bigot? No, because I realize the actual number is so small, it's not worth writing off an entire group of people.

J.

When I first joined the board and made even a hint as to my beliefs I was attacked. In most of my dealings it is the atheists (mainly) that do the attaching first. Ether outright attaching, calling someone deluded or subtlely making fun of someone's beliefs and yes Miss Chicken falls some of that.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

I've never seen Miss Chicken mock anyone's beliefs either here or in TNZ. Unless we're stretching to equate disagreement / questioning of one's beliefs to "making fun of" someone or calling them deluded, in which case the problem is yours, not hers.

 

[backstept]

. . .

According to what you have written, your faith isn't in God, it is in the Bible. You believe in the Bible, you follow the Bible, you have faith in the Bible.

Unless God visited you and told you that the Bible was his word, your faith has nothing to do with God. It has everything to do with a book.

faith in a book . . . that's silly. it's just paper with words on it.

the word 'Faith' has been thrown around a lot in this thread, but what does it mean?

a dictionary says:
Faith: 1 A strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny. 2 Complete confidence or trust in a person or plan. 3 An institution to express belief in a supernatural power or powers. 4 Loyalty or allegiance to a cause or person.

Hebrews 11:1 'Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.'

I am sure that Christ paid our debt. I am sure that He will return. I am absolutely certain that God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit exist. I am certain that the Bible is true to the very last dotted 'i' and crossed 't.'

I don't have faith in the book itself, but in what it teaches.

Hebrews 11 is full of examples of people who lived by faith.
Faith isn't simply a belief in something, it's knowledge and certainty that what you believe is true.

God doesn't need to tell me that the Bible is his word, because I know it is.

 

[bluedana]

According to what you have written, your faith isn't in God, it is in the Bible. You believe in the Bible, you follow the Bible, you have faith in the Bible.

Unless God visited you and told you that the Bible was his word, your faith has nothing to do with God. It has everything to do with a book.

Can you really not make that last little logical step that backstept is professing a believe in God . . . as revealed in the Bible? That's like saying that someone who cites the Constitution really just believes in a document, and not in the democratic republic that is the United States of America.

Back to the original topic, I have to say the these different types of worship experiences described here all have their place (within reason), as long as they are Scripturally based. If I'm honest, I crave different things at different times. Sometimes I want that feel-good philosophical, here are some ways your life could be better today message of Osteen and Warren - it's like auditing a lifestyle class, while rocking out to really good music. Sometimes I want to immerse myself in the old hymns of the church - those Charles Wesley and Fanny Crosby masterpieces that contain poetry unmatched by today's songs. Sometimes I want the worship songs, which come from a place of I don't know what else to say but "I love you, God." And sometimes I want the (to me) slow, deliberate, ancient rituals of the Catholic mass (or the Episcopal or the Lutheran church,which are quite similar) - it's not so much the pomp and circumstance as the feeling that every single movement has meaning. I'm lucky enough that I can tag along with my husband when he's invited to preach across the vast Protestant styles, and I can experience the different types of worship - usually precisely what I need for where I am (emotionally, spiritually) that day.

Let me also clarify my point (way back) on tithing. I tithe because I am commanded to (and as I said, this command pre-dates Christianity). But equally I tithe because I understand the principles of tithing, and I know that eventually it benefits my whole life. I trust that the church I tithe to will practice good stewardship and use the money wisely. So, it's a mix, I guess, of altruism, obedience, and expectation. I would "give" even if I weren't required to, but I'm not sure that I'd "tithe" (which means give the first 10%).

Just one more comment. We're hearing about foundations that are telling non-profits, sorry we can't fund you because Bernie Madoff stole our money. And non-profits are closing left and right. But in churches all across the country, people hear that the need is great, and they give more. That is what churches have always done, in grand and small ways.

 

[Chimpy Chompy]

God doesn't need to tell me that the Bible is his word, because I know it is.

How do you know that?

 

[Augustus]

Well, I speak for myself, but I know that the Bible is the word of God through sacred and personal experience. My church asks all of its members to read, pray and seek your own personal conversion experience. This can come quickly all at once, more like for me, it was slowly over a long time that I came to know that the Bible and the Book of Mormon are the word of God. But more importantly, at least for me, is that I believe that just how people had prophets in days and eras past, we have a prophet to on the earth today.

 

[backstept]

God doesn't need to tell me that the Bible is his word, because I know it is.

How do you know that?

I know, by faith, that it is true. Faith is being sure of what we hope for, and certain of what we do not see.

 

[Davros]

God doesn't need to tell me that the Bible is his word, because I know it is.

How do you know that?

I know, by faith, that it is true. Faith is being sure of what we hope for, and certain of what we do not see.

Belief that something is true doesn't make it so.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Let me just say this...I DO think there is a tendency of the atheists around here to conduct themselves in a very contemptuous manner towards people of faith, even to engage in the sort of behavior I would call proselytizing. There seems to me to be a great deal of hostility because yes--anti-religious cracks DO seem to come out of nowhere, with what seems to be the intention of deliberately provoking something.

That said...there are those around here that seem to take the bait and just fire right back and cause the fight to get even worse, when perhaps reporting the attack to the moderator would have been the more appropriate solution. Those who respond calmly often (at least in my own experience, and I want no part of TNZ, so please understand my experience pertains to the main board) seem to be ignored by all but a few posters who are able to engage in a more emotionally-detached manner.

Now here I'm going into personal theory, but I have the suspicion that because Gene Roddenberry was a professed atheist and we are on a Trek board, that some people take that as free license to attack believers in any way they see fit. I think there may well be a belief among some that there is an inherent contradiction between being a "true" Trek fan and holding any other belief than atheism.

I think some of the atheist hostility is also based on a false impression of religion, and the Christian religion in particular. I have tried, for my own part, to demonstrate that this is not true but it seems to do little good because I don't raise my voice, so to speak. There seems to be a blanket assumption that believers are automatically ignorant of science, intolerant, and only good because they are fearful of divine retribution. And the response to this in many cases seems to be outright contempt that if demonstrated to a more "desirable" group would be called as out of line.

So while I think believers are not innocent in this manner...the original observation that there is a high degree of contempt towards believers that has become socially acceptable on this board is true.

 

[backstept]

How do you know that?

I know, by faith, that it is true. Faith is being sure of what we hope for, and certain of what we do not see.

Belief that something is true doesn't make it so.

Unbelief doesn't make it false.

We could go on and on until we're blue in the face. I believe what I do, and others believe differently. Debate will only entrench us in our believes further.

 

[trekkerguy]

How do you know that?

I know, by faith, that it is true. Faith is being sure of what we hope for, and certain of what we do not see.

Belief that something is true doesn't make it so.

Exactly.

 

[shapeshifter]

And yet another thread the believers allowed the unbelievers to derail because they take the bait.

The Churches are among the biggest hypocrites on the planet. All their doctrines are so far from Biblical truth it isn't even funny. It's been that way since 30 years after the Ascension and gone downhill ever since.

This is why there is an end of the world coming; because the very people God put in charge of the Bible don't know the first thing about how to correctly interpret It.

If they understood the Bible they'd know the Holy Spirit has now abandoned them the same as It did with national Israel. They'd see and believe the picture God has painted, (Jerusalem is in ruins) illustrating this would happen. (To be fair though, I have to point out God knew this would happen and did nothing to prevent it.) Satan has taken his seat in the place he ought not be and people don't have sense enough to get out while they still can.

They cling to the deadly idea that their church is what Jesus meant when He said He'd build His church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it.

It's true the Churches did, despite the error of their ways, manage to serve God for almost 2000 years, (He winked at the ignorance for a while, Acts 17:30) by getting the Word out but they never Saved anyone, that was God working.

Today His Church is strictly a spiritual one, NOT made with hands populated by people who worship in spirit and truth.

To sum-up, that the churches have gone to hell is a SIGN to get out of them! "Come out of her o' my people, be not partaker of her sins. Someone will say; Not my church, it's different. Delusion! Remember when God warned the inhabitants of Jerusalem to get out but some didn't believe it? They couldn't believe the Holy City would be destroyed but guess what, they wrong and died for it. The same thing is happening today.

I don't care if you don't believe it, that's between you and your maker. Some or even just one person here is going to hear this, understand, believe and do the right thing and it is for them/him/her that I say it.