Starship Enterprise vs. Battlestar Galactica

[Demiurge]

Yeah, I remember that Voyager ep. I didn't count it because it was a tactic they intentionally used offensively - they fired the torp planning to detonate it with phaser fire.

But we never see a ship, even once the shields are down or are useless (such as Generations) actually fire at a photon torp trying to knock it down. Plasma torps, yes, but never photons. Considering the number of times that would have made some type of tactical sense and assuming guys like Riker, Picard, Sisko, and even Janeway aren't complete morons, there seems to be a reason that they don't.

 

[Davros]

The Galactica would destroy TOS Enterprise. The Enterprise was mainly made for exploration whereas the Galactica was made for war. Between the pounding from Galactica's guns and the assault from the vipers, Kirk and crew would be dead.

The Enterprise can manuver and fire at warp speeds. The Galactica would be destroyed before they even knew they had an opponent.

 

[3D Master]

Yeah, I remember that Voyager ep. I didn't count it because it was a tactic they intentionally used offensively - they fired the torp planning to detonate it with phaser fire.

It does count, in fact it explains the below...

But we never see a ship, even once the shields are down or are useless (such as Generations) actually fire at a photon torp trying to knock it down. Plasma torps, yes, but never photons. Considering the number of times that would have made some type of tactical sense and assuming guys like Riker, Picard, Sisko, and even Janeway aren't complete morons, there seems to be a reason that they don't.

There IS a reason, namely the one you just casually claimed doesn't count: if they hit the torpedo too close to their own ship (and given the speed of a torpedo that's about the only place you can hit it), it causes you MORE damage than if you simply take the hit.

 

[TheMasterOfOrion]

The Galactica would destroy TOS Enterprise. The Enterprise was mainly made for exploration whereas the Galactica was made for war. Between the pounding from Galactica's guns and the assault from the vipers, Kirk and crew would be dead.

The Enterprise can manuver and fire at warp speeds. The Galactica would be destroyed before they even knew they had an opponent.

I thought this BS thread would die by now but since it won't and people keep bumping it to cunningly promote that crap on scifi what speeds does TOS Greene-O GINO Galatica move at and what speed does the Ron D Moronic Aircraftcarrierstar Galactica move at?

Can they even reach warp-2?

 

[Demiurge]

There IS a reason, namely the one you just casually claimed doesn't count: if they hit the torpedo too close to their own ship (and given the speed of a torpedo that's about the only place you can hit it), it causes you MORE damage than if you simply take the hit.

Eh, I take that one with a grain of salt. Why wouldn't ships intentionally detonate their own torpedoes near their targets then? It's an interesting theory, but I'm not sure it's warranted.

The ep was Workforce Part II. There were two Quarren ships closing in (oh, and didn't anyone tell Bermaga that the Quarren are a Star Wars race? LOL). The EMH fires a torp between the two, hits it with a phaser, it creates a shockwave that disables both.

Lots of different ways to interpret that.

However, I'm not sure why exactly detonating an antimatter bomb with a phaser would create a more powerful blast than the antimatter reaction in the first place.

And the key dialogue:

Kim: (fires phasers) I can't penetrate their shields.
ECH: Perhaps we don't have to.

He then mentions the Battle of Vorkado a Romulan captain uses it to disable two ships and proceeds to do so.

Youtube has a clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Z072gx-wWQ

But he explicitly stated before they weren't going to penetrate the shields.

My guess would be that the shockwave knocked their impulse drives offline.

Which would be a hell of a useful thing across the board - but this is the only time in the 29 years of Trek and 11 movies that we actually see it used.

I tend to give less credence to one time technobabble events than the accumulated evidence of years of the show. Especially in Voyager and Enterprise episodes.

But it's as good a theory as any, I grant you.

 

[3D Master]

There IS a reason, namely the one you just casually claimed doesn't count: if they hit the torpedo too close to their own ship (and given the speed of a torpedo that's about the only place you can hit it), it causes you MORE damage than if you simply take the hit.

Eh, I take that one with a grain of salt. Why wouldn't ships intentionally detonate their own torpedoes near their targets then? It's an interesting theory, but I'm not sure it's warranted.

The ep was Workforce Part II. There were two Quarren ships closing in (oh, and didn't anyone tell Bermaga that the Quarren are a Star Wars race? LOL). The EMH fires a torp between the two, hits it with a phaser, it creates a shockwave that disables both.

Lots of different ways to interpret that.

It's not about detonating it near their targets, it's about SHOOTING it with a phaser or disruptor near their targets. And unless you're moving in a nice straight line, with your target in a nice straight line, like Workforce Part II, with how small and fast a torpedo is, that's nearly impossible.

However, I'm not sure why exactly detonating an antimatter bomb with a phaser would create a more powerful blast than the antimatter reaction in the first place.

Because a photon torpedo is not simply an antimatter bomb. It's shielded, rapidly moving missile, and shielded is the point. Same way, a phaser is a beam that has subspace properties, just like shields. So when a torpedo is shot, two shield walls penetrated on one side of the torpedo as well as the other side, you get a subspace reaction, the shields collapse irregularly, and it dross massive amounts of energy out of subspace, amplifying anti-matter detonation.

And the key dialogue:

Kim: (fires phasers) I can't penetrate their shields.
ECH: Perhaps we don't have to.

He then mentions the Battle of Vorkado a Romulan captain uses it to disable two ships and proceeds to do so.

Youtube has a clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Z072gx-wWQ

But he explicitly stated before they weren't going to penetrate the shields.

The phasers didn't penetrate the shields and couldn't, the subspace shockwave explosion and shockwave however, would and did.

My guess would be that the shockwave knocked their impulse drives offline.

Did you watch the clip? As far as I can tell the pursuing ships were completely destroyed.

Which would be a hell of a useful thing across the board - but this is the only time in the 29 years of Trek and 11 movies that we actually see it used.

Because it's nearly impossible to use, and you can even hurt yourself with it if you're successful.

 

[Demiurge]

It's not about detonating it near their targets, it's about SHOOTING it with a phaser or disruptor near their targets. And unless you're moving in a nice straight line, with your target in a nice straight line, like Workforce Part II, with how small and fast a torpedo is, that's nearly impossible.

Torps are almost always shown as going in a straight line - two exceptions I can think of, in STVI when they specifically modified it to seek the emissions of the cloaked warbird, and STII - when its entering the gravity well of the Genesis planet.

Because a photon torpedo is not simply an antimatter bomb. It's shielded, rapidly moving missile, and shielded is the point. Same way, a phaser is a beam that has subspace properties, just like shields. So when a torpedo is shot, two shield walls penetrated on one side of the torpedo as well as the other side, you get a subspace reaction, the shields collapse irregularly, and it dross massive amounts of energy out of subspace, amplifying anti-matter detonation.

Uh huh. Any source for this speculation? Because I've read all the tech manuals - they state that there is a shield in the torpedo, but that's to keep the ant-matter from mingling with the matter containment.

Did you watch the clip? As far as I can tell the pursuing ships were completely destroyed.

CLEARLY those ships weren't destroyed. They were still clearly visible and neither one had any visible hull breaches.

The dialogue also clearly stated that this tactic wouldn't breach the shields. 'I can't penetrate the shields' followed by 'Maybe you don't have to' is a hell of a lot different than 'if the phasers don't work maybe this will.' The shields aren't breached, period.

Because it's nearly impossible to use, and you can even hurt yourself with it if you're successful.

Waaaay too much speculation here. It's all logical if you ignore the dialogue in the ep, but that's not supportable with the dialogue.

 

[3D Master]

It's not about detonating it near their targets, it's about SHOOTING it with a phaser or disruptor near their targets. And unless you're moving in a nice straight line, with your target in a nice straight line, like Workforce Part II, with how small and fast a torpedo is, that's nearly impossible.

Torps are almost always shown as going in a straight line - two exceptions I can think of, in STVI when they specifically modified it to seek the emissions of the cloaked warbird, and STII - when its entering the gravity well of the Genesis planet.

That's because they're moving so fast.

Because a photon torpedo is not simply an antimatter bomb. It's shielded, rapidly moving missile, and shielded is the point. Same way, a phaser is a beam that has subspace properties, just like shields. So when a torpedo is shot, two shield walls penetrated on one side of the torpedo as well as the other side, you get a subspace reaction, the shields collapse irregularly, and it dross massive amounts of energy out of subspace, amplifying anti-matter detonation.

Uh huh. Any source for this speculation? Because I've read all the tech manuals - they state that there is a shield in the torpedo, but that's to keep the ant-matter from mingling with the matter containment.

The fact that it's a glowing ball of energy instead of a metal casing flying about. The fact that no stray matter ever destroyed a torpedo. The fact that shooting a torpedo causes a bigger explosion that if you simply detonate them.

If the tech manuals don't name it, they're either incomplete, or flatout wrong.

Did you watch the clip? As far as I can tell the pursuing ships were completely destroyed.

CLEARLY those ships weren't destroyed. They were still clearly visible and neither one had any visible hull breaches.

They were still visible? Not to me they weren't. Shockwave. Sizzling around the ships. Gone.

The dialogue also clearly stated that this tactic wouldn't breach the shields. 'I can't penetrate the shields' followed by 'Maybe you don't have to' is a hell of a lot different than 'if the phasers don't work maybe this will.' The shields aren't breached, period.

No, it doesn't. It states that Harry Kim does not have to breach the shields with the phasers.

It says nothing on whether the shockwave will do something else, or penetrate their shields after all. However, I find it hard to think of a way to disable their engines or worse, without penetrating the shields.

Because it's nearly impossible to use, and you can even hurt yourself with it if you're successful.

Waaaay too much speculation here. It's all logical if you ignore the dialogue in the ep, but that's not supportable with the dialogue.

Well, that's where you're wrong. The dialogue perfectly supports it, not to mention the scene of it actually happening. Seriously, if detonating the torpedo with you phasers was not difficult, and could not hurt yourself, why doesn't everyone use it? The fact that isn't often if at all used, must mean that it is either diffcult, you can hurt yourself, or both.

 

[Sephiroth]

i'm gonna destroy this thread with the mention of one craft
The Emeraldas

 

[3D Master]

i'm gonna destroy this thread with the mention of one craft
The Emeraldas

The what?

And what does it have to do with Enterprise vs. Galactica.

 

[Sephiroth]

it's the ship form Capt. Harlock, and it'd tear both ships apart

 

[Davros]

The Galactica would destroy TOS Enterprise. The Enterprise was mainly made for exploration whereas the Galactica was made for war. Between the pounding from Galactica's guns and the assault from the vipers, Kirk and crew would be dead.

The Enterprise can manuver and fire at warp speeds. The Galactica would be destroyed before they even knew they had an opponent.

I thought this BS thread would die by now but since it won't and people keep bumping it to cunningly promote that crap on scifi what speeds does TOS Greene-O GINO Galatica move at and what speed does the Ron D Moronic Aircraftcarrierstar Galactica move at?

Can they even reach warp-2?

Neither Battlestar has been shown in combat at FTL speeds. The Enterprise has been shown doing this.

 

[3D Master]

it's the ship form Capt. Harlock, and it'd tear both ships apart

Captain who?

 

[Leroy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Harlock from the great Leiji Matsumoto.

 

[Jim Steele]

...

Just wanted to say your avatar is awesome.

We now return to your scheduled thread.

 

[Icy_Penguigo]

If you use Star Fleet Battles rules for the Trek side of the comparison, then it gets really not fun for Galactica. Really, really not fun.

10,000 kilometers is considered point-blank range for ships in SFB. Particularly long-ranged weapons can be fired from about 500,000 km away. In combat ships are ALWAYS moving at FTL speeds. A typical heavy cruiser in SFB needs only a few minutes to completely raze the entire surface of a planet. Hell, one transporter bomb could probably take out Galactica and its entire fleet, since they have a 30,000 kilometer wide explosion.

I don't see Galactica's sub-lightspeed bullets or handful of nukes competing.

 

[DBR]

^^^ Thread killer.

I was going to say: "But all Apollo has to do is sneeze around a bio-gel pack...." but I concede defeat.

 

[Ol Scratch]

If you use Star Fleet Battles rules for the Trek side of the comparison, then it gets really not fun for Galactica. Really, really not fun.

10,000 kilometers is considered point-blank range for ships in SFB. Particularly long-ranged weapons can be fired from about 500,000 km away. In combat ships are ALWAYS moving at FTL speeds. A typical heavy cruiser in SFB needs only a few minutes to completely raze the entire surface of a planet. Hell, one transporter bomb could probably take out Galactica and its entire fleet, since they have a 30,000 kilometer wide explosion.

I don't see Galactica's sub-lightspeed bullets or handful of nukes competing.

Too bad you never see any of that on the actual shows. The vast majority of fights -- when they occur, which they rarely do -- are almost always against stationary or barely-moving vessels. And to my knowledge we certainly have never seen a "transporter bomb," let alone one with a 30,000 km wide explosion. And do you have any idea how ridiculous that number is? I mean, the Earth itself is less than 13,000 km in diameter.

Whatever this Starfleet Battles thing is, it's absolutely ridiculous and has nothing to do with the actual Star Trek universe.

 

[Lindley]

Bullets won't hurt shields.

Standard ones, no. But I think some people tend to underestimate the power of kinetic energy. Throw an asteroid at a starship, it's a threat. Throw a much smaller bit of metal much faster----it's an equal threat.

Galactica isn't firing 9mm ammo. It's firing railguns. In space they may even more more effective than a nuke, since most of a nuke's destruction comes from the pressure wave it creates in an atmosphere.

Now, maybe a starship's sheilds can hold up to that. But I don't think it's nearly as sure a thing as some of you seem to.

 

[Davros]

Bullets won't hurt shields.

Standard ones, no. But I think some people tend to underestimate the power of kinetic energy. Throw an asteroid at a starship, it's a threat. Throw a much smaller bit of metal much faster----it's an equal threat.

Galactica isn't firing 9mm ammo. It's firing railguns. In space they may even more more effective than a nuke, since most of a nuke's destruction comes from the pressure wave it creates in an atmosphere.

Now, maybe a starship's sheilds can hold up to that. But I don't think it's nearly as sure a thing as some of you seem to.

However the projectiles being fired by Galactica will be moving at sublight speeds. The Enterprise would be traveling at warp speeds and would have little to worry about from such primitive weaponry.

A Battlestar vs a Star Destroyer would be a more even battle.