The New Movie: What Are Your Fears?

[3D Master]

Seeing as Orci says the movie is about Kirk before he even enters the academy, it seems it's worse, it seems he goes from nothing at all to captain.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

So, looks like Entertainment Weekly isn't the only source of those "Cadet to Captain in a week" rumors, eh?

I'm not sure what you see in the quoted excerpt above that has anything to do with "cadet to Captain" in any specific period of time.

The quote is "What you see is what he is before the Academy." Suggesting that the Kirk we see in the film, has not yet graduated. What other conclusion would you have me draw?

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

What I'm most afraid of is that we won't see enough of Saldana with her tits out. Chris Pine's recent statements about the lack of "crazy sex" in the movie have concerned me greatly.

 

[number6]

He didn't get there from the get-go. Kirk's growth is the other way around. It's not from reckless to measured.

It's from nerdy, insecure, guy who got bullied at the academy, and slowly gained more and more confidence and ego until he finally became the living legend of the movies.

THAT is the problem. Kirk was never a rebel, he wasn't James Dean Kirk, he was always James T. Kirk, and maybe James R. Kirk, but certainly not James D. Kirk.

Umm... Source??

Ever heard of Finnegan?

Of course I have. That doesn't prove your interpretation of Kirk's character. You are reading wayyyyyyy too much into it.

 

[M'Sharak]

So, looks like Entertainment Weekly isn't the only source of those "Cadet to Captain in a week" rumors, eh?

I'm not sure what you see in the quoted excerpt above that has anything to do with "cadet to Captain" in any specific period of time.

The quote is "What you see is what he is before the Academy." Suggesting that the Kirk we see in the film, has not yet graduated. What other conclusion would you have me draw?

He has not yet entered the Academy at that point. He's not even a cadet yet.

If you look at the interview, you see this:

Kirk’s bar battle
In the press preview shown in November (see TrekMovie report), there was a scene where a young James T. Kirk gets into a bar fight (before going into Starfleet Academy). SciFi Wire asked Orci what he had to say to fans who feel this is out of character for Kirk:

Orci: Well, they cite the quote that he was a stack of books with legs in the Academy. The truth is that in our movie there’s nothing that precludes Kirk from being a stack of books at the Academy. What you see is what he is before the Academy. Some would argue that him being a rebellious bar fighter in our movie is absolutely consistent with canon.
​

We already know that the bar fight in question takes place before Kirk enters the Academy (Pike's lecture, part of which is heard as a voice-over in the theatrical trailer, is generally understood to take place immediately following the brawl) and that we see characters in the movie in events of several different timeframes. There's nothing in the interview at all about how long it takes Kirk to go from cadet rank to captain's rank, and certainly nothing from which you could draw the conclusion that it happens in under a week.

I ask you again: Is there some secret code, visible to you but which I'm not seeing? Why the continuing fixation on "cadet to Captain in a week" when there has been nothing in any official source of material indicating that this is what will happen?

 

[SalvorHardin]

I'm 110% sure I'm wasting my "breath" now but anyway...

Orci: Well, they cite the quote that he was a stack of books with legs in the Academy.

The truth is that in our movie there’s nothing that precludes Kirk from being a stack of books at the Academy.

What you see is what he is before the Academy. Some would argue that him being a rebellious bar fighter in our movie is absolutely consistent with canon.

http://trekmovie.com/2009/01/15/abrams-and-orci-talk-space-battles-bar-fights-and-more/

And those some would be dead wrong.

Until I see the movie, I'll take the word of someone who actually wrote the movie, has all the information about it and therefore knows what he is talking about rather than the word of someone like you.

 

[3D Master]

I'm 110% sure I'm wasting my "breath" now but anyway...

http://trekmovie.com/2009/01/15/abrams-and-orci-talk-space-battles-bar-fights-and-more/

And those some would be dead wrong.

Until I see the movie, I'll take the word of someone who actually wrote the movie, has all the information about it and therefore knows what he is talking about rather than the word of someone like you.

Whether or not I saw the movie, has no bearing on Kirk not possibly being a rebel when he was younger.

 

[SalvorHardin]

And those some would be dead wrong.

Until I see the movie, I'll take the word of someone who actually wrote the movie, has all the information about it and therefore knows what he is talking about rather than the word of someone like you.

Whether or not I saw the movie, has no bearing on Kirk not possibly being a rebel when he was younger.

Whatever you say man.
I have realized long ago that it is pointless for someone to argue with you so I won't even try.

 

[3D Master]

Umm... Source??

Ever heard of Finnegan?

Of course I have. That doesn't prove your interpretation of Kirk's character. You are reading wayyyyyyy too much into it.

Finnegan - bullied - Kirk - in - the - academy.

That's not reading anything into it, that's a cold hard fact.

 

[number6]

Ever heard of Finnegan?

Of course I have. That doesn't prove your interpretation of Kirk's character. You are reading wayyyyyyy too much into it.

Finnegan - bullied - Kirk - in - the - academy.

That's not reading anything into it, that's a cold hard fact.

Saying that he was a nerd who gained ego and confidence as a result of being bullied in the academy is supposition, entirely unsubstantiated by anything shown onscreen. That=Reading too much into it.

 

[3D Master]

Of course I have. That doesn't prove your interpretation of Kirk's character. You are reading wayyyyyyy too much into it.

Finnegan - bullied - Kirk - in - the - academy.

That's not reading anything into it, that's a cold hard fact.

Saying that he was a nerd who gained ego and confidence as a result of being bullied in the academy is supposition, entirely unsubstantiated by anything shown onscreen. That=Reading too much into it.

I never said anything about him gaining ego and confidence as a result of being bullied. I said he wasn't a rebel James Dean Kirk smashing things to pieces metaphorically speaking wherever he went. A guy like that doesn't get bullied, and anyone trying gets bullied in return, or at least his face smashed in.

At the same time Shore Leave showed us Kirk very much finally wanting to take on Finnegan, which shows he didn't do it back then. Thus, the Kirk that went into the academy, was a Kirk that was bookish, nerdy and wasn't a massive risk taker, and most certainly not a guy that breaks rules and metaphorically and possibly literally smashes things to pieces wherever he went.

He was never James Dean Kirk.

 

[number6]

It's from nerdy, insecure, guy who got bullied at the academy, and slowly gained more and more confidence and ego until he finally became the living legend of the movies.

Your direct quote. and none of that precludes the possibility of Kirk being a rebel in his youth. It's entirely possible and if that's the story that they want to tell, they certainly have that right. I don't see a problem with that.

 

[3D Master]

It's from nerdy, insecure, guy who got bullied at the academy, and slowly gained more and more confidence and ego until he finally became the living legend of the movies.

Your direct quote.

And none of it says, "as a result of". Seriously, is reading that hard?

and none of that precludes the possibility of Kirk being a rebel in his youth. It's entirely possible and if that's the story that they want to tell, they certainly have that right. I don't see a problem with that.

Actually, yes, it DOES preclude the possibility of Kirk being a rebel in his youth, because guess what, that IS his youth. Even in his early teens he would never have been a rebel, certainly not just before he enters the academy. Because a guy like that; like I already pointed out, doesn't get bullied, and if someone tries, that one gets his face smashed in.

 

[number6]

It's from nerdy, insecure, guy who got bullied at the academy, and slowly gained more and more confidence and ego until he finally became the living legend of the movies.

Your direct quote.

And none of it says, "as a result of". Seriously, is reading that hard?

and none of that precludes the possibility of Kirk being a rebel in his youth. It's entirely possible and if that's the story that they want to tell, they certainly have that right. I don't see a problem with that.

Actually, yes, it DOES preclude the possibility of Kirk being a rebel in his youth, because guess what, that IS his youth. Even in his early teens he would never have been a rebel, certainly not just before he enters the academy. Because a guy like that; like I already pointed out, doesn't get bullied, and if someone tries, that one gets his face smashed in.

Sorry, but that is supposition. There is nothing that precludes Kirk being a rebel and then becoming a stack of books with legs in the academy. I've known plenty of people who have gone from being rebellious to hunkering down and taking their studies too seriously, only to be knocked down again and given a dose of reality. It happens in real life. There is no reason why it couldn't happen to Kirk, simply because you believe otherwise.

 

[3D Master]

Your direct quote.

And none of it says, "as a result of". Seriously, is reading that hard?

and none of that precludes the possibility of Kirk being a rebel in his youth. It's entirely possible and if that's the story that they want to tell, they certainly have that right. I don't see a problem with that.

Actually, yes, it DOES preclude the possibility of Kirk being a rebel in his youth, because guess what, that IS his youth. Even in his early teens he would never have been a rebel, certainly not just before he enters the academy. Because a guy like that; like I already pointed out, doesn't get bullied, and if someone tries, that one gets his face smashed in.

Sorry, but that is supposition. There is nothing that precludes Kirk being a rebel and then becoming a stack of books with legs in the academy. I've known plenty of people who have gone from being rebellious to hunkering down and taking their studies too seriously, only to be knocked down again and given a dose of reality. It happens in real life. There is no reason why it couldn't happen to Kirk, simply because you believe otherwise.

I'm not talking about a stack of books, you unbelievable...

I'm talking about the fact that he GETS BULLIED IN THE ACADEMY, WHILE HE WAS STILL A REBEL MOMENTS BEFORE HE ENTERS THE ACADEMY.

Unffing believable.

That would have him go from "smash everything to pieces", to "nerdy guy with books that lets himself get bullied" to "smash everything to pieces to hell with the rules" in two months.

And guess what, it does NOT happen in real life.

Especially considering in the first season of TOS, and only slowly less during the second and third season, Kirk was still quite insecure about his own abilities and his responsibility.

That would mean, not only would you want to go from rebel, to nerd, to rebel, to once again to nerd, and back to rebel and to so on and so forth.

It does NOT happen in real life.

 

[number6]

And none of it says, "as a result of". Seriously, is reading that hard?

Actually, yes, it DOES preclude the possibility of Kirk being a rebel in his youth, because guess what, that IS his youth. Even in his early teens he would never have been a rebel, certainly not just before he enters the academy. Because a guy like that; like I already pointed out, doesn't get bullied, and if someone tries, that one gets his face smashed in.

Sorry, but that is supposition. There is nothing that precludes Kirk being a rebel and then becoming a stack of books with legs in the academy. I've known plenty of people who have gone from being rebellious to hunkering down and taking their studies too seriously, only to be knocked down again and given a dose of reality. It happens in real life. There is no reason why it couldn't happen to Kirk, simply because you believe otherwise.

I'm not talking about a stack of books, you unbelievable...

I'm talking about the fact that he GETS BULLIED IN THE ACADEMY, WHILE HE WAS STILL A REBEL MOMENTS BEFORE HE ENTERS THE ACADEMY.

Unffing believable.

That would have him go from "smash everything to pieces", to "nerdy guy with books that lets himself get bullied" to "smash everything to pieces to hell with the rules" in two months.

And guess what, it does NOT happen in real life.

Especially considering in the first season of TOS, and only slowly less during the second and third season, Kirk was still quite insecure about his own abilities and his responsibility.

That would mean, not only would you want to go from rebel, to nerd, to rebel, to once again to nerd, and back to rebel and to so on and so forth.

It does NOT happen in real life.

Two months?? Where do you get these ridiculous time frames? You're just making shit up. I'm sorry, but you haven't come up with anything substantial to back up your premise, and resorting to a petulant condescending tone isn't convincing me either. Walk away and we can continue debating when you learn a little civility. For now you'll get no satisfaction by bullying me with that attitude of yours.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Finnegan - bullied - Kirk - in - the - academy.

That's not reading anything into it, that's a cold hard fact.

Stop misusing words like "facts."

What you describe above is a little bit of second-hand testimony by a fictional character in a story. It's not even established as an objective occurence within the fiction, only as Kirk's recollection. It is anything but a "cold hard fact."

It's not at all important, anyway.

 

[shapeshifter]

I have to admit, I understand where 3D Master and the like minded are coming from. I too had the same impressions of Kirk's back story from all the quoted material as they do. For years, everything I ever speculated about Kirk's early days involved him being a kind of nerdy bookworm from a happy family, not a bar-brawler from a wrecked one.

Now I know I was wrong. Rather than making myself miserable over why TPTB didn't see what I saw and create a backstory more in line with what I thought was reality is useless. I learned that long ago, after my first fansumption about some non-canon item was eventually squashed like an egg by the filming of the actual truth of the matter. It is because I learned that lesson that I continue to be a happy Trekkie today. I could be bitter about a great many things they "screwed up" but I am not.

What is important to me now is, how do I have to adjust my thinking to line up with how the writers saw it? What were their thought processes in reconciling known canon into this backstory?

I have theories but they are too incomplete to post. What's important though is that I have a good time thinking them up. ;-)

 

[SalvorHardin]

My "fear" is that 3DMaster will manage to get yet another once interesting and civil thread closed in the end.

How many is it now ? 6-7 ?

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

What do I fear about this movie? Nothing. Why?

Because Fear--as Dune teaches us--is the mind killer. Thanks Junot Diaz for reminding me of that.