Janeway Died? In Which Book?

[Ktrek]

OK, I can see your point here and I can actually agree with some of it too.

But consider the fact that we are discussing a show (or whatever we should call it if we refer to both TV episodes and books) where most of the characters stays basically the same. They are seriously wounded, possessed by aliens, turned into lizards but in the end are restored to normal. In that case, I don't find it logic to single out certain characters for "execution". It would have been different if it had been an ongoing saga stretching over hundreds of years, like some of those series which starts with the colonization of America and ends in present time.

But even if I see your point here, I must disagree in this case. I find the "annihilation" of Janeway unnecessary even from a storytelling point, I mean she isn't even on Voyager anymore so killing her off to give Chakotay or someone else more space or development isn't necessary either. As a matter of fact, it looks only like some stunt, like "OK, let's kill off Janeway, it will stir up some emotions, create some headlines on the Trek forums and by the way, she's not so popular either, many Trek fans hate her". Sorry, but that's the impression I got.

Besides that, I must once again mention my personal dislike of seeing favorite characters killed off. I don't want to rant about it but I've already had some problems with the concept for the relaunch where main characters (who I really like) are absent and replaced by characters who I simply can't come up with any affection for.

You might find it silly or narrow-minded but when I read a Voyager story, then I want to read about the Voyager characters from the TV-series. That's why I actually prefer the old books who were written during seasons 1-3 where the original main characters are all in the books and they are facing the unknown in the Delta Quadrant before the "relaunch" books. To put it simply, the magic from the old books isn't there anymore.

And still, one could at least imagine that the missing favorites were still around somewhere and hope that they would show up in some upcoming book in the future. With the "annihilation" of Janeway, that will not happen in upcoming books.

That's my opinion about this and as you see, I guess it differs from yours when it comes to what we want to see in the Star Trek books.

Just for fun, I would also like to present another view of the scene here. As we all know, the different Trek series are on re-run all over the world. So let us imagine that there is a "newbie" somewhere out there who starts watching Voyager, takes a liking to it and become a Janeway fan. Then that fans finds out that there are books about Voyager available. The fan buy one or some book and finds out that Janeway has been killed off and most of the characters from the series are missing. How interested in the books will that person be? (I bring this up because I read a comment from a person once who was complaining about why the books made on an European SF series were so different from the TV series itself due to the fact that the author had started to replace characters from the series with his own creations).

Lynx - We all "get" that you have affection for Janeway although not a completely loyal affection but affection none the less. Your reasoning is just trying to "keep the band together" but the fact is the band is no longer viable or any good. Sometimes it's necessary to break up the band so the individual members can explore their own potential. If Paul McCartney had never left the Beatles we never would have had Wings and all of his solo albums. Or George Harrison's All Things Must Past and the Traveling Willburys. John never would have written Imagine or Give Peace a Chance. And although the tragic killing of Lennon was awful yet life moved on. It did mean we would never see a Beatles reunion but you know what? If we had it would never have been the Beatles we remembered anyway. It just would have been nostalgia.

Your scenario could possibly happen but Pocket Books cannot release books for nostalgia's sake. Life takes nasty turns and we have to move on and grow with them. You for some reason want to live in the past. A past that was fun and one you have fond memories of but Trek books cannot afford to remain there. You can choose to live in the past if you want but if you do life will pass you by. There is so much of the Star Trek universe to still explore and new characters that, given a chance, you could come to love as much as you do Kes and Janeway. But you seem to be too narrow minded and the spirit of adventure and discovery is lost on you.

As much as I wish we could encourage you to move on I can see there is no hope for you as long as you are closed to new possibilities. You need to find some other show to attach your affections to but what will you do when they too kill off a beloved character? The other day you indicated you liked NCIS but was not so bothered by Jenny's death because YOU considered her not a main character. So you decide who is worth saving and who is NOT? The first season of NCIS in the last episode they killed off my, and many other fans, favorite character, Kate! Did I stop watching NCIS because of it it? Heck no! Ziva has never been and never will be a replacement for Kate. I have come to like Ziva over time but I would much rather have had Kate. I still have not abandoned the show because there are still story possibilities and now killing off Jenny the new director has made things even more interesting. It may turn out that the Voyager stories will prove to be far better without Janeway. Only time will tell. Personally I don't think there was a lot you could do with her character without being contriving and the cameo Admiral janeway bits were getting obnoxious. She just is not a very interesting character as an Admiral, nor even as a captain for that matter, but that's my personal opinion.

Either accept what is or move on Lynx because you are just wasting your time complaining about what is and cannot or won't be changed. It seems by responses that you are in a very small minority and for every fan that stops buying books because Janeway was killed there very well could be many more who will now start buying them.

Kevin

 

[Lynx]

^^
Since we are into The Beatles I must say that none of the solo records from the previous members are in the same class as what they did accomplish as a group.

I also have a relative (a cousin to my father) who is an ardent fan of another band who had its heydays during the late 60's and early 70's. The guy collects everything he can get when it comes to the band (even a rather bland reunion record from the 90's) but refuses tho buy the solo records from the former band members since he find them sub-standard and far from what the band did accomplish both in style and quality. The magic isn't there anymore. Sometimes I have had the same feeling about the Voyager Relaunch (even before the annihilation of Janeway) but I've actually bought some of the books, for supporting the project and also because of some interest for the characters and their ongoing adventures. As you probably remember, I used to see the adventures in the Relaunch books as the continuation of the Voyager story, the same for the other relaunch series.

As for NCIS, I totally share your opinion about Kate, I didn't like that she was killed off but I could see the reasons for why the actress wanted to leave and the love and affection for the other characters made me continue to watch. But if they should kill off Gibbs.......?

As for the new director who replaced Jenny, I don't like him at all. But they haven't started to air the current season where I live yet.

Besides that, I must have some favorite show after all disspointments with Star Trek. I guess that I simply have more affection for the Voyager characters than for many other characters in other series outside Star Trek.

As for finding other SF-series to watch, I've given up hope. I can stand Stargate SG-1 and even Atlantis but that's all.

As for other series, there are some that I watch, like the CIS series and some others but I've learned my lesson from Voyager and keep only a casual interest. No favorites!

As for finding new favorites in Star Trek books, well I used to have some hopes for a new TV series or something similar with new characters which would take place in the 24th century. If something like that should show up among the Star Trek books in the future, I might be ready to give it a try as long as there are no references to Janeway or Voyager whatsoever in them. But that's a decision I'll have to take there and then and it depends a lot on how the new characters and stories are.

As for how the books will sell in the future, only time can tell. I still have a feeling that more fans would be interested if the old favorite characters from the series would be around and not being dumped or annihilated.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Since we are into The Beatles I must say that none of the solo records from the previous members are in the same class as what they did accomplish as a group.

I hope you don't include Lennon's "Double Fantasy" in that.

I still have a feeling that more fans would be interested if the old favorite characters from the series would be around.

Well, less than 5% of ST viewers read the the tie-in novels. And if those that do knew, in advance, that no regular characters were going to be truly endangered by their text-based adventures, despite not having to appease actors on contracts, then why bother?

 

[Trent Roman]

Well, less than 5% of ST viewers read the the tie-in novels. And if those that do knew, in advance, that no regular characters were going to be truly endangered by their text-based adventures, despite not having to appease actors on contracts, then why bother?

Uh... wasn't that essentially the case for the last twenty years of Trek tie-in publishing? Unless killing Janeway prompted a massive swell of sales that I don't know about, I'd say most readers (excluding the sliver of those interested enough to come to forums such as these) aren't particularly concerned.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Lynx]

Since we are into The Beatles I must say that none of the solo records from the previous members are in the same class as what they did accomplish as a group.

I hope you don't include Lennon's "Double Fantasy" in that.

I still have a feeling that more fans would be interested if the old favorite characters from the series would be around.

Well, less than 5% of ST viewers read the the tie-in novels. And if those that do knew, in advance, that no regular characters were going to be truly endangered by their text-based adventures, despite not having to appease actors on contracts, then why bother?

"Double Fantasy" is a good album.

And there are some gold nuggets to be found in the post-Beatles productions from the different members. Still, they were better as The Beatles.

 

[Therin of Andor]

wasn't that essentially the case for the last twenty years of Trek tie-in publishing?

Yep. And a minority complained then, and a minority is complaining now - for the opposite reason.

I'd say most readers (excluding the sliver of those interested enough to come to forums such as these) aren't particularly concerned.

Exactly!

And there are some gold nuggets to be found in the post-Beatles productions from the different members. Still, they were better as The Beatles.

I'm surprised you didn't turn your back on them for breaking up the gang.

 

[Lynx]

wasn't that essentially the case for the last twenty years of Trek tie-in publishing?

Yep. And a minority complained then, and a minority is complaining now - for the opposite reason.

I'd say most readers (excluding the sliver of those interested enough to come to forums such as these) aren't particularly concerned.

Exactly!

And there are some gold nuggets to be found in the post-Beatles productions from the different members. Still, they were better as The Beatles.

I'm surprised you didn't turn your back on them for breaking up the gang.

I do think there is a difference between what's happening in real life and bad decisions and politics when it comes to fiction.

But I can understand the reaction of my relative when it comes to that other band. The solo efforts of those former band members are sub-standard.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I do think there is a difference between what's happening in real life and bad decisions and politics when it comes to fiction.

That's been our point all along. You have reacted adversely to a fictional death, and compared it to feeling like a loss in real life. Now you're saying there's a difference after all.

 

[Lynx]

I do think there is a difference between what's happening in real life and bad decisions and politics when it comes to fiction.

That's been our point all along. You have reacted adversely to a fictional death, and compared it to feeling like a loss in real life. Now you're saying there's a difference after all.

But even if there is a significant difference between a fictional death and a loss in real life, one can react to a "change to the worse" in both cases, especially in this case when the event who leads to the loss is unnecessary and could have been avoided.

 

[Therin of Andor]

when the event who leads to the loss is unnecessary and could have been avoided.

So every popular character who ever meets the Borg must endure!

 

[ClayinCA]

Wow. Well, all I can say is this: Therin, thanks for sticking up for Double Fantasy.

 

[JD]

Lynx you say you're a CSI fan, so will you still be watching even though Grissom left?

 

[Hartzilla2007]

OK, I can see your point here and I can actually agree with some of it too.

But consider the fact that we are discussing a show (or whatever we should call it if we refer to both TV episodes and books) where most of the characters stays basically the same. They are seriously wounded, possessed by aliens, turned into lizards but in the end are restored to normal. In that case, I don't find it logic to single out certain characters for "execution". It would have been different if it had been an ongoing saga stretching over hundreds of years, like some of those series which starts with the colonization of America and ends in present time.

But even if I see your point here, I must disagree in this case. I find the "annihilation" of Janeway unnecessary even from a storytelling point, I mean she isn't even on Voyager anymore so killing her off to give Chakotay or someone else more space or development isn't necessary either. As a matter of fact, it looks only like some stunt, like "OK, let's kill off Janeway, it will stir up some emotions, create some headlines on the Trek forums and by the way, she's not so popular either, many Trek fans hate her". Sorry, but that's the impression I got.

Besides that, I must once again mention my personal dislike of seeing favorite characters killed off. I don't want to rant about it but I've already had some problems with the concept for the relaunch where main characters (who I really like) are absent and replaced by characters who I simply can't come up with any affection for.

You might find it silly or narrow-minded but when I read a Voyager story, then I want to read about the Voyager characters from the TV-series. That's why I actually prefer the old books who were written during seasons 1-3 where the original main characters are all in the books and they are facing the unknown in the Delta Quadrant before the "relaunch" books. To put it simply, the magic from the old books isn't there anymore.

And still, one could at least imagine that the missing favorites were still around somewhere and hope that they would show up in some upcoming book in the future. With the "annihilation" of Janeway, that will not happen in upcoming books.

That's my opinion about this and as you see, I guess it differs from yours when it comes to what we want to see in the Star Trek books.

Just for fun, I would also like to present another view of the scene here. As we all know, the different Trek series are on re-run all over the world. So let us imagine that there is a "newbie" somewhere out there who starts watching Voyager, takes a liking to it and become a Janeway fan. Then that fans finds out that there are books about Voyager available. The fan buy one or some book and finds out that Janeway has been killed off and most of the characters from the series are missing. How interested in the books will that person be? (I bring this up because I read a comment from a person once who was complaining about why the books made on an European SF series were so different from the TV series itself due to the fact that the author had started to replace characters from the series with his own creations).

Lynx - We all "get" that you have affection for Janeway although not a completely loyal affection but affection none the less. Your reasoning is just trying to "keep the band together" but the fact is the band is no longer viable or any good. Sometimes it's necessary to break up the band so the individual members can explore their own potential. If Paul McCartney had never left the Beatles we never would have had Wings and all of his solo albums. Or George Harrison's All Things Must Past and the Traveling Willburys. John never would have written Imagine or Give Peace a Chance. And although the tragic killing of Lennon was awful yet life moved on. It did mean we would never see a Beatles reunion but you know what? If we had it would never have been the Beatles we remembered anyway. It just would have been nostalgia.

Your scenario could possibly happen but Pocket Books cannot release books for nostalgia's sake. Life takes nasty turns and we have to move on and grow with them. You for some reason want to live in the past. A past that was fun and one you have fond memories of but Trek books cannot afford to remain there. You can choose to live in the past if you want but if you do life will pass you by. There is so much of the Star Trek universe to still explore and new characters that, given a chance, you could come to love as much as you do Kes and Janeway. But you seem to be too narrow minded and the spirit of adventure and discovery is lost on you.

As much as I wish we could encourage you to move on I can see there is no hope for you as long as you are closed to new possibilities. You need to find some other show to attach your affections to but what will you do when they too kill off a beloved character? The other day you indicated you liked NCIS but was not so bothered by Jenny's death because YOU considered her not a main character. So you decide who is worth saving and who is NOT? The first season of NCIS in the last episode they killed off my, and many other fans, favorite character, Kate! Did I stop watching NCIS because of it it? Heck no! Ziva has never been and never will be a replacement for Kate. I have come to like Ziva over time but I would much rather have had Kate. I still have not abandoned the show because there are still story possibilities and now killing off Jenny the new director has made things even more interesting. It may turn out that the Voyager stories will prove to be far better without Janeway. Only time will tell. Personally I don't think there was a lot you could do with her character without being contriving and the cameo Admiral janeway bits were getting obnoxious. She just is not a very interesting character as an Admiral, nor even as a captain for that matter, but that's my personal opinion.

Either accept what is or move on Lynx because you are just wasting your time complaining about what is and cannot or won't be changed. It seems by responses that you are in a very small minority and for every fan that stops buying books because Janeway was killed there very well could be many more who will now start buying them.

Kevin

QFT though I will add this

Lynx will you please stop refering to it as the "annihilation of Janeway" she wasn't annihilated... well maybe she was, but thats the point Janway is DEAD, D.E.A.D. DEAD as in not alive any more if you are going to complain about it in post after post at least call it what it is, you could at least do that scince instead of stating your opinion your beating us over the head with it over and over again.

 

[Christopher]

^^Besides, the word "annihilation" means "reduction to nothing" (Latin nihil = nothing, zero), and as we saw at the end of BD, Janeway's consciousness survives in some form thanks to Lady Q. So while she is corporeally dead and unlikely to be resurrected in the foreseeable future, she hasn't been annihilated.

Plus, of course, she's a fictional character and therefore can't be annihilated. She could appear in other works of fiction, either set in earlier times or taking place in different continuities. In the books, there are things like the Shatnerverse and Myriad Universes, and there are also the comics, which are not beholden to the book continuity (although neither IDW nor Tokyopop has the license to do VGR comics at the moment).

 

[Dayton Ward]

It just occurred to me that in this thread's many pages, we've missed something critical. I think it bears mentioning, as Marco's not here, I'm happy to carry on in his stead. Despite the tragic events of Before Dishonor, we don't have to worry, because in addition to the storytelling avenues Christopher has mentioned...

THEY SAVED JANEWAY'S BRAIN!!!!


:: ahem ::


I now return you to your lives, already in progress.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Wow. Well, all I can say is this: Therin, thanks for sticking up for Double Fantasy.

A few days before my birthday in 1980, I was on a bus and its radio newsflash pronounced John Lennon dead. The new songs from the album had already been getting a lot of airplay. The album was given to me as a birthday gift four days later. I think my brother had actually already bought it for me before the assassination.

 

[Lynx]

Lynx you say you're a CSI fan, so will you still be watching even though Grissom left?

CSI is one of the series which I might skip.

Let's face it, CSI without Grissom will be like TOS without Kirk or Spock.

It will only become a remnant of its former glory.

Therin of Andor wrote:

So every popular character who ever meets the Borg must endure!

Well, Picard did survive and was restored back to normal.

I've also seen that some posters has objections against my use of the word "annihilation" when it comes to what's happened to Janeway. Well, it feels like an annihilation to me.

But I can change that in order to avoid conflicts. Should I write "annihilation" instead?

Or destruction, dumping, deleting, killing off?

 

[Therin of Andor]

Or destruction, dumping, deleting, killing off?

Nope, Janeway simply went to the end of the queue.

 

[Thrawn]

Lynx - you don't think it defangs the Borg a bit if the serious, implacable enemy is entirely unable to kill any important character? Doesn't that seem a little absurd?

 

[Semah]

I never thought I'd see the Trek equivalent to "Dumbledore's not dead!! He's not!!" Should've known better.