Synopsis of JMS's synopsis of the "original arc for B5" **SPOILERS**

[chrisspringob]

Re: Synopsis of JMS's synopsis of the "original arc for B5" **SPOILERS

This meant mapping out both “Babylon Squared” and “War Without End” at the same time, in considerable detail, despite the fact
that they would air four years apart. On its own that was not too difficult a
task...but there was always the possibility that something could go wrong during
the four years between those two episodes. Actors might choose to leave, there
could be accidents, there’s no way of knowing what could happen. So for each
key scene there had to be an alternate flip-side scene that could be dropped into​

place to fill the gap as precisely as if it had been meant that way all along.

Jan

Interesting that JMS says "four years apart" rather than "two years apart". Just a typo, or a freudian slip? We know from the synopsis that "originally" the flip side of B-Squared wasn't supposed to come until the spinoff series, but I wonder when it was supposed to come as of the time that JMS actually wrote the script for B-Squared.

 

[Jan]

Re: Synopsis of JMS's synopsis of the "original arc for B5" **SPOILERS

Interesting that JMS says "four years apart" rather than "two years apart". Just a typo, or a freudian slip? We know from the synopsis that "originally" the flip side of B-Squared wasn't supposed to come until the spinoff series, but I wonder when it was supposed to come as of the time that JMS actually wrote the script for B-Squared.

Doubtful that it was a typo because earlier in the introduction JMS wrote:

So Warner Bros. asked, very reasonably, how long it would be before
that side of the story was shown, resolving the riddle set up in this story. They
assumed the gap would be a couple of episodes, or that at worst we’d have the
answers by the end of the season.
After checking my notes, I said, “About four years.”
They pretended they didn’t hear it.
I pretended I didn’t say it.​

And we went on with the story.

Anybody who's read all of the script books knows now that the details of the arc were in constant flux as circumstances changed, actors changed and JMS thought of better or different ways he wanted to go. Even the 'original arc' memo under discussion isn't anything of the sort since it was written as JMS began work on the first season. Obviously details had changed between the Pilot and the first season. He also mentions that, depending on circumstances, the flip side of B^2 could have been that B4 was sent 20 years into the future which explains old Sinclair much better than the forced aging due to the time warping.

Jan

 

[3D Master]

Re: Synopsis of JMS's synopsis of the "original arc for B5" **SPOILERS

The main inconsistancies are in how Zathras showed up on B4 and the gaffe with Delenn's sleeve being different in B^2 and the costume she wore in WWE. Something to keep in mind is that JMS mapped out WWE at the time that he was writing B^2:

And let's not forget: in B^2 Sinclair doesn't go back in time alone, Delenn is with him, as you see in the final few moments of the episode. Hence the talk of Valen having offspring; this isn't with a woman he met in the past, it's with the woman that went with him to the past.

 

[JoeD80]

Re: Synopsis of JMS's synopsis of the "original arc for B5" **SPOILERS

The main inconsistancies are in how Zathras showed up on B4 and the gaffe with Delenn's sleeve being different in B^2 and the costume she wore in WWE. Something to keep in mind is that JMS mapped out WWE at the time that he was writing B^2:

And let's not forget: in B^2 Sinclair doesn't go back in time alone, Delenn is with him, as you see in the final few moments of the episode. Hence the talk of Valen having offspring; this isn't with a woman he met in the past, it's with the woman that went with him to the past.

The scene with Sinclair & Delenn in Babylon Squared is in War Without End.

He also mentions that, depending on circumstances, the flip side of B^2 could have been that B4 was sent 20 years into the future which explains old Sinclair much better than the forced aging due to the time warping.

In the synposis his aging was due to the effects of the time rift -- it aged Sinclair, Delenn and their son. Don't forget the Starfury pilot dies of old age at the beginning of the Babylon Squared episode. And jms said the aging was done pretty much exactly as he had intended, which seems to be confirmed by the synopsis. IIRC, I don't think jms ever said "20 years into the future" -- that's only been speculation by fans like me -- he only said "the future or the past."

 

[Jan]

Re: Synopsis of JMS's synopsis of the "original arc for B5" **SPOILERS

IIRC, I don't think jms ever said "20 years into the future" -- that's only been speculation by fans like me -- he only said "the future or the past."

It was there:

And in fact, in one iteration of the five-year arc, depending on what​

actors we did or didn’t have, what changes might or might not have afflicted the series during production, or in the event of a sudden cancellation in the third season, our characters were indeed taking the station forward in time...meaning that Valen would have come back from a point of origin about twenty years later in our storyline rather than three years down the line. If you read the script with the notion that they were going forward not backward in time, the scenes take on a very different meaning.​

It's amazing that, from what he's said, he kept all of the different possibilities in his head for the most part.

Jan

 

[JoeD80]

Re: Synopsis of JMS's synopsis of the "original arc for B5" **SPOILERS

Ah OK. I wasn't completely sure. But the aging effects of the rift were always present.

 

[3D Master]

Re: Synopsis of JMS's synopsis of the "original arc for B5" **SPOILERS

The main inconsistancies are in how Zathras showed up on B4 and the gaffe with Delenn's sleeve being different in B^2 and the costume she wore in WWE. Something to keep in mind is that JMS mapped out WWE at the time that he was writing B^2:

And let's not forget: in B^2 Sinclair doesn't go back in time alone, Delenn is with him, as you see in the final few moments of the episode. Hence the talk of Valen having offspring; this isn't with a woman he met in the past, it's with the woman that went with him to the past.

The scene with Sinclair & Delenn in Babylon Squared is in War Without End.

No, it isn't.

And if it is, it's nowhere at the end of the episode after B4 is taken away, as it was in B^2.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

Re: Synopsis of JMS's synopsis of the "original arc for B5" **SPOILERS

And let's not forget: in B^2 Sinclair doesn't go back in time alone, Delenn is with him, as you see in the final few moments of the episode. Hence the talk of Valen having offspring; this isn't with a woman he met in the past, it's with the woman that went with him to the past.

The scene with Sinclair & Delenn in Babylon Squared is in War Without End.

No, it isn't.

And if it is, it's nowhere at the end of the episode after B4 is taken away, as it was in B^2.

The scene is there, slightly re-staged with Delenn not touching the arm of Sinclair as he exits the airlock and wearing her Ranger dress not the long robe as seen in "Babylon Squared." The dialog is the same, however.

SINCLAIR

I tried... I tried to warn them, but
it all happened just the way I
remember it.

DELENN
I know.

(beat)
It's time. We have to go. They're
waiting for us.

Afterwards, they head up to B4's C-and-C, where Sinclair tells them that he's going back with the station to the past. Besides the "incorrect" costume, the restaging of the scene from B^2 changes the physical affection that Delenn for Sinclair. I wonder if this was done because her arc had changed to having romantic feelings towards Sheridan and not Sinclair. Mira Furlan in an interview once said that if you look at her performance in season one, you can tell that she played Delenn as being attracted to Sinclair. JMS later said that it was more reverance, but this was post-Sinclair.

JoeD80, by the way, thanks for finding that JMS post on Sinclair and Valen.
​

 

[JoeD80]

Re: Synopsis of JMS's synopsis of the "original arc for B5" **SPOILERS

Besides the "incorrect" costume, the restaging of the scene from B^2 changes the physical affection that Delenn for Sinclair. I wonder if this was done because her arc had changed to having romantic feelings towards Sheridan and not Sinclair.

I think in the script book jms said this was just them not matching the scene quite right. This scene was refilmed since in the original episode Delenn was off-screen so her coming change was hidden. When they refilmed it they didn't quite get everything a 100% match.

JoeD80, by the way, thanks for finding that JMS post on Sinclair and Valen.

No problem!

 

[Jan]

Re: Synopsis of JMS's synopsis of the "original arc for B5" **SPOILERS

Besides the "incorrect" costume, the restaging of the scene from B^2 changes the physical affection that Delenn for Sinclair. I wonder if this was done because her arc had changed to having romantic feelings towards Sheridan and not Sinclair.

I think in the script book jms said this was just them not matching the scene quite right. This scene was refilmed since in the original episode Delenn was off-screen so her coming change was hidden. When they refilmed it they didn't quite get everything a 100% match.​

​

That's what he wanted to claim but owned up to in Vol. 7:

One last wardrobe glitch came back to haunt us during shooting. We’d

put Delenn in her green tunic for this episode, but the arm seen reaching into
frame to put her hand on Sinclair at the end of the episode was wearing a
different color sleeve. They wouldn’t match. So we decided to have Mira not
reach into frame in this story because it would be easier to explain what
appeared to be an editing glitch than a mismatch on the original footage, which​

thus far we’d been able to use without incident.
​

Having done the Joe Cuts and seen just how the two parts were juggled in editing, I'm amazed at how well it all knits together. For me, though, I prefer how they're written rather than the final editing.

Jan
​

 

[Goldenfoxx]

Re: Synopsis of JMS's synopsis of the "original arc for B5" **SPOILERS

The wardrobe glitch and the aging of Sinclair weren't the only things that felt forced to me, though. In fact, I could really care less about the wardrobe glitch - I grew up on the Transformers cartoon, where entire body limbs would be inexplicably painted the wrong color... you learn to ignore that sort of thing. I could care less where Zathras came from; it's his explanation of "the One" that felt wholly contrived in WWE. The whole the-One-is-actually-three-different-people thing, when Sheridan was likely nowhere in JMS' mind at the time of B^2 (that IS an assumption on my part, but I can't see why it's not a logical one).

 

[Jan]

Re: Synopsis of JMS's synopsis of the "original arc for B5" **SPOILERS

Very likely there wasn't at the time B^2 was written because at the time, while he might have planned on a Sheridan character, the timing seems wrong for him to have expected for the Sheridan character to replace Sinclair.I don't have a problem with the Past-Present-Future 'The Ones' being key to the two-parter, though, since that made having all of them present more meaningful to the episode.Jan

 

[Angel4576]

Re: Synopsis of JMS's synopsis of the "original arc for B5" **SPOILERS

[Anybody who's read all of the script books knows now that the details of the arc were in constant flux as circumstances changed, actors changed and JMS thought of better or different ways he wanted to go. Even the 'original arc' memo under discussion isn't anything of the sort since it was written as JMS began work on the first season. Obviously details had changed between the Pilot and the first season. He also mentions that, depending on circumstances, the flip side of B^2 could have been that B4 was sent 20 years into the future which explains old Sinclair much better than the forced aging due to the time warping.
Jan

Prior to the final scriptbook coming out I'd always assumed that the original ending to the series would have been a fusion of what we got in WWE and SiL. To me, it always seemed fairly logical. When Joe talked of the 'final scene' that he always knew would be the final shot of the series I always assumed that he was talking about the Sinclair/Valen reveal from WWE. Obviously that wasn't the case, he was talking about the final moments of SiL as we got, but still, nice to know that the other thinking around WWE/SiL appears to have been more accurate.

 

[Mr Light]

Re: Synopsis of JMS's synopsis of the "original arc for B5" **SPOILERS

JMS has said that even if Sinclair stayed, there would have been a Sheridan-like character joining the show later. I believe that this would have been General Hague leader of the rebellion, who would have had a more substantial role.

 

[Jan]

Re: Synopsis of JMS's synopsis of the "original arc for B5" **SPOILERS

JMS has said that even if Sinclair stayed, there would have been a Sheridan-like character joining the show later. I believe that this would have been General Hague leader of the rebellion, who would have had a more substantial role.

That makes a lot of sense. I think that the character would need to be based on B5, though, because JMS has said that Sinclair would have been moved to the background but still present.Jan

 

[Mr Light]

Re: Synopsis of JMS's synopsis of the "original arc for B5" **SPOILERS

I can't remember if the Sheridan-esque was supposed to be a new character joining the station or not, in which case I vaguely remember something about him being the replacement for the unseen Atumbe. But in any case, if it was Hague I'm sure that he would have been the conspiracy person appearing in "All Alone in the Night" and "Hunter Prey", and then after the failed coup in "Point No Return" he would have fled to the station permanently and joined the cast.

 

[Stanley]

Re: Synopsis of JMS's synopsis of the "original arc for B5" **SPOILERS

Thanks for posting this, Chrisspringob. I always wondered about the "Babylon 5 that never was," but now I appreciate the one we have all the more.

 

[Sirikus]

Re: Synopsis of JMS's synopsis of the "original arc for B5" **SPOILERS

The wardrobe glitch and the aging of Sinclair weren't the only things that felt forced to me, though. In fact, I could really care less about the wardrobe glitch - I grew up on the Transformers cartoon, where entire body limbs would be inexplicably painted the wrong color... you learn to ignore that sort of thing. I could care less where Zathras came from; it's his explanation of "the One" that felt wholly contrived in WWE. The whole the-One-is-actually-three-different-people thing, when Sheridan was likely nowhere in JMS' mind at the time of B^2 (that IS an assumption on my part, but I can't see why it's not a logical one).

Sorry for the threadomancy, but I have been re-watching b-5 with a friend who has never seen it, and after reading the summary (and this entire thread... yay insomnia!) I think that the three aspects of the one may actually have been in JMS's mind originally.

The idea of the 3 ones is specifically linked to Minbari culture, which played a much larger role in the original outline, and the outline does mention 3 people coming back in time to get B-4 and bring it to the future: Sinclair, Delenn and their son, who would become a great spiritual leader and form an alliance, etc, and also revitalize the Minbari race.

Thinking from a Minbari perspective, and swapping the descriptions of two characters, Delenn becomes "The One who was" of the old original Minbari stock, though now changed. Sinclair would now be "the One who is" being the one who is responsible for the revitalization of the Minbari race through the infusion of human genetic material into their race, relatively recently in the original outline, and their suddenly fully grown son would be "the One who will be" as the future of the Minbari race, and leader of the upcoming alliance. In fact in retrospect I think this scene actually makes MORE sense with the original outline than it does in the real series, and may have just been repurposed to try to explain away the new Valen idea and fit Sheridan into the plot of the episode. After reading the initial outline and the prophecy from Valen of the one who would come who would lead the Minbari to death and rebirth (as the "pure" Minbari race would have to wind up dying off in favor of the "revitalized" hybrid race embodied first in Sinclair and Delenn's son) I am strongly convinced that some form of the explanation from Zathras was actually in the original script written at the same time as B squared.

 

[Kegg]

Re: Synopsis of JMS's synopsis of the "original arc for B5" **SPOILERS

The idea of the 3 ones is specifically linked to Minbari culture, which played a much larger role in the original outline, and the outline does mention 3 people coming back in time to get B-4 and bring it to the future: Sinclair, Delenn and their son, who would become a great spiritual leader and form an alliance, etc, and also revitalize the Minbari race.

Thinking from a Minbari perspective, and swapping the descriptions of two characters, Delenn becomes "The One who was" of the old original Minbari stock, though now changed.

That Minbari perspective was clearly invented for the purpose of making Sinclair not the only 'One', though. It's one of JMS's more ingenious rationalizations but not one I think we'd have heard if the show went that Sinclair route.

 

[Uxi]

Re: Synopsis of JMS's synopsis of the "original arc for B5" **SPOILERS

Lurked this thread for awhile now. I always liked the Sinclair character far more than Sheridan and always was fascinated at the original ideas hinted out during the run of B5 on the Lurkers Guy. I never did quite buy into JMS' comment to the effect of what is is better and some of the things I like least about B5 from the anti-climactic resolution of the Shadow War to most of the 5th season.

Seems clear that we can substitute Catherine Sakai one to one for Anna Sheridan. She's hitting the Rim and ends up stumbling on Z'ha'dum. The precise details of her "brain rape" or getting plugged into a Crab don't really matter that much as much as that she ends up either possessed and ends ends up being a tool of the Shadows or just dead. On the rebound, Sinclair's growing relationship with Delenn turns romantic and it goes from there.

Since the Clark thing already happened and we were already introduced to the Psi Corps, it seems like the Earth Alliance civil war arc would have still unfolded the way it did, regardless of the original plan or it's mention or not in the original treatment. I could see it stretched through the end of season 5 and not being resolved until Babylon 5, but needing to concoct some sort of evidence against Sinclair isn't necessary if the EF government is going bad anyway.

Similarly, I think it likely Garibaldi's arc would probably end up intertwined with Mars and Lise just like we got, though he doesn't end up happily ever after (at least as per the B5 we did get) and he either ends up dead or captured with the evidence pointing towards dead, but possibilty slightly ambiguously so that he could be a surprise return in Prime (think of "whatever happened to Mr Garibaldi" and his capture by the Shadows) except this time it's Minbari doing it.

Firing up round 2 of the Earth-Minbari war is the most interesting turn. Always felt the Minbari Warrior Caste were wasted. They make great villains yet having the Religious caste at least partially on the "good guys" makes the Minbari themselves far more interesting and I suspect the ultimate resolution and Neroon in particular would have turned out similarly.