Star Trek 2009: Berman's "altered timeline"?

[Canadave]

In Terminator Skynet go to the past to kill John Connor.

If the Terminator is successful John Connor will have never existed in the future and they would have never needed to send a robot back in the first place, so how did they send one back unless they are always doomed to failure and there is no point?

Time travel sucks.

The Terminator is actually probably one of the best examples of a predestination paradox out there, actually. Skynet basically causes everything to happen, including its creation and its downfall, by sending a Terminator into the past. It's rather brilliant when you start thinking about it.

 

[cooleddie74]

In Terminator Skynet go to the past to kill John Connor.

If the Terminator is successful John Connor will have never existed in the future and they would have never needed to send a robot back in the first place, so how did they send one back unless they are always doomed to failure and there is no point?

Time travel sucks.

One reason I always felt that Skynet knew the first attempts would fail and that the assassination attempts on John and his mother were necessary in order for the computer system to even be able to take over the planet.

 

[TrekGuide.com]

The Terminator is actually probably one of the best examples of a predestination paradox out there, actually. Skynet basically causes everything to happen, including its creation and its downfall, by sending a Terminator into the past. It's rather brilliant when you start thinking about it.

Yes, but only the first "Terminator" movie. "T2" introduces the concept of "free will" and "changing the future," allowing the characters to break the predestination cycle (Terminator goes back in time, Cyberdyne finds Terminator pieces, Cyberdyne invents Terminator, Terminator goes back in time, etc.) by destroying all traces of the Terminators and destroying Cyberdyne.

Then, "T3" introduces BOTH concepts simultaneously. The T-X goes back in time to CHANGE her own past by killing her future enemies while they are teen-agers. She is erasing her own history to create a new future. But at the same time, the T-101 comes back, knowing that it is Judgment Day, and that John Connor will survive, so he is participating in his own predestination paradox by making everything he remembers come true (at the same time that the T-X is changing her past).

So each of the Terminator films has an entirely different theory of time travel than the previous film ... much like time travel episodes in "Star Trek."

 

[mic of orion]

what happened to Berman and that other clown ?

Are they finished in Hollywood ???

 

[Falcor5]

what happened to Berman and that other clown ?

Are they finished in Hollywood ???

Brannon Braga is now a co-executive producer and writer for the TV show 24. Not sure what Berman is up to these days.

 

[DEWLine]

Braga's also working on adapting Rob Sawyer's novel Flash Forward into a TV series. Source on this is Rob himself.

 

[Bacl]

what happened to Berman and that other clown ?

Are they finished in Hollywood ???

Rick Berman was last seen near a public swimming pool, offering children free candy and naps in the back of his van.

 

[bryce]

I remember Rick Berman saying in interviews that ENT was an "altered timeline" stemming from the events of First Contact.

It wasn't, of course.

FC was part of what was supposed to happen, all along. A classic predestination paradox. There's no way to prove otherwise, at any rate.

I agree. The end of "Regeneration" established that the Borg drones had managed to send a signal that would reach the Delta Quadrant by the 24th century and it was also strongly implied that it was this signal why the Borg cube in "Q Who?" was on its way to the Alpha Quadrant (ah, and there were also those attacks on Federation/Romulan outposts in "The Neutral Zone").

Which blantently contradicts "Q Who", because in that episode it was stated that it was Q's interference that caused the Federation to make dirst contact wwith the Borg "before they were ready". It was pretty clearly stated in that episode that, had Q not accellerated the timetable the Federation could have been decades, perhaps even a centry or more from stumbling on the Borg on their own. And so now the Borg were coming for us.

But in ENT's "Regeneration", now they claim that the Borg were already aware of Humanity (and the Federation) and were already on their way in the 24th century, and it didn't matter what Q did, he didn't accellerate anything. The Borg were *already* coming for us.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

It wasn't, of course.

FC was part of what was supposed to happen, all along. A classic predestination paradox. There's no way to prove otherwise, at any rate.

I agree. The end of "Regeneration" established that the Borg drones had managed to send a signal that would reach the Delta Quadrant by the 24th century and it was also strongly implied that it was this signal why the Borg cube in "Q Who?" was on its way to the Alpha Quadrant (ah, and there were also those attacks on Federation/Romulan outposts in "The Neutral Zone").

Which blantently contradicts "Q Who", because in that episode it was stated that it was Q's interference that caused the Federation to make dirst contact wwith the Borg "before they were ready". It was pretty clearly stated in that episode that, had Q not accellerated the timetable the Federation could have been decades, perhaps even a centry or more from stumbling on the Borg on their own. And so now the Borg were coming for us.

But in ENT's "Regeneration", now they claim that the Borg were already aware of Humanity (and the Federation) and were already on their way in the 24th century, and it didn't matter what Q did, he didn't accellerate anything. The Borg were *already* coming for us.

Well, you could also argue that "Q Who?" contradicts itself. On the one hand, it is established that the Borg were probably responsible for the destruction of the Federation and Romulan outposts in "The Neutral Zone", on the other hand it is claimed that first contact with the Borg would have been decades away weren't it for Q's intervention.

How could anyone say that first contact would have been that far in the future after the Borg had already destroyed Federation outposts near the Neutral Zone a year earlier?

 

[Ovation]

I agree. The end of "Regeneration" established that the Borg drones had managed to send a signal that would reach the Delta Quadrant by the 24th century and it was also strongly implied that it was this signal why the Borg cube in "Q Who?" was on its way to the Alpha Quadrant (ah, and there were also those attacks on Federation/Romulan outposts in "The Neutral Zone").

Which blantently contradicts "Q Who", because in that episode it was stated that it was Q's interference that caused the Federation to make dirst contact wwith the Borg "before they were ready". It was pretty clearly stated in that episode that, had Q not accellerated the timetable the Federation could have been decades, perhaps even a centry or more from stumbling on the Borg on their own. And so now the Borg were coming for us.

But in ENT's "Regeneration", now they claim that the Borg were already aware of Humanity (and the Federation) and were already on their way in the 24th century, and it didn't matter what Q did, he didn't accellerate anything. The Borg were *already* coming for us.

Well, you could also argue that "Q Who?" contradicts itself. On the one hand, it is established that the Borg were probably responsible for the destruction of the Federation and Romulan outposts in "The Neutral Zone", on the other hand it is claimed that first contact with the Borg would have been decades away weren't it for Q's intervention.

How could anyone say that first contact would have been that far in the future after the Borg had already destroyed Federation outposts near the Neutral Zone a year earlier?

When is that "established"? Certainly not in that episode--nor prior to "Q Who?". I don't recall that it was unequivocally determined to have been the Borg at all (though I could be wrong--I've not seen TNG era episodes as often as TOS, so I don't recall all their details) and even IF it has been, I'd bet it was long enough after the episode for either A) it being another example of inconsistency (among many) in Trek or B) a post-FC episode of Voyager in which the assertion is part of the ret-con established by FC.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

Which blantently contradicts "Q Who", because in that episode it was stated that it was Q's interference that caused the Federation to make dirst contact wwith the Borg "before they were ready". It was pretty clearly stated in that episode that, had Q not accellerated the timetable the Federation could have been decades, perhaps even a centry or more from stumbling on the Borg on their own. And so now the Borg were coming for us.

But in ENT's "Regeneration", now they claim that the Borg were already aware of Humanity (and the Federation) and were already on their way in the 24th century, and it didn't matter what Q did, he didn't accellerate anything. The Borg were *already* coming for us.

Well, you could also argue that "Q Who?" contradicts itself. On the one hand, it is established that the Borg were probably responsible for the destruction of the Federation and Romulan outposts in "The Neutral Zone", on the other hand it is claimed that first contact with the Borg would have been decades away weren't it for Q's intervention.

How could anyone say that first contact would have been that far in the future after the Borg had already destroyed Federation outposts near the Neutral Zone a year earlier?

When is that "established"? Certainly not in that episode--nor prior to "Q Who?". I don't recall that it was unequivocally determined to have been the Borg at all (though I could be wrong--I've not seen TNG era episodes as often as TOS, so I don't recall all their details) and even IF it has been, I'd bet it was long enough after the episode for either A) it being another example of inconsistency (among many) in Trek or B) a post-FC episode of Voyager in which the assertion is part of the ret-con established by FC.

In the solar system from "Q Who?" where the Enterprise-D meets a Borg cube for the first time there was also a devastated class-M planet... and Data remarks that those devastations match with those from the Federation outposts which were destroyed the year before.

So unless you want to argue that a) Data was either mistaken or b) the Borg cube was just in that system by coincidence and had nothing to do with the destructions on this planet, the Borg were in fact responsible for the attacks on the Federation and Romulan outposts along the Neutral Zone.

I don't have a transcript for that episode, but the Memory Alpha article on "Q Who?" states:

A survey of the only Class M planet in the system reveals that while there was once a civilization there, it has been ripped away from the planet, "identical to what happened to the outposts along the Neutral Zone." A cube-shaped ship then approaches the Enterprise, and scans of the ship show nothing.

 

[3D Master]

Well, you could also argue that "Q Who?" contradicts itself. On the one hand, it is established that the Borg were probably responsible for the destruction of the Federation and Romulan outposts in "The Neutral Zone", on the other hand it is claimed that first contact with the Borg would have been decades away weren't it for Q's intervention.

How could anyone say that first contact would have been that far in the future after the Borg had already destroyed Federation outposts near the Neutral Zone a year earlier?

When is that "established"? Certainly not in that episode--nor prior to "Q Who?". I don't recall that it was unequivocally determined to have been the Borg at all (though I could be wrong--I've not seen TNG era episodes as often as TOS, so I don't recall all their details) and even IF it has been, I'd bet it was long enough after the episode for either A) it being another example of inconsistency (among many) in Trek or B) a post-FC episode of Voyager in which the assertion is part of the ret-con established by FC.

In the solar system from "Q Who?" where the Enterprise-D meets a Borg cube for the first time there was also a devastated class-M planet... and Data remarks that those devastations match with those from the Federation outposts which were destroyed the year before.

So unless you want to argue that a) Data was either mistaken or b) the Borg cube was just in that system by coincidence and had nothing to do with the destructions on this planet, the Borg were in fact responsible for the attacks on the Federation and Romulan outposts along the Neutral Zone.

I don't have a transcript for that episode, but the Memory Alpha article on "Q Who?" states:

A survey of the only Class M planet in the system reveals that while there was once a civilization there, it has been ripped away from the planet, "identical to what happened to the outposts along the Neutral Zone." A cube-shaped ship then approaches the Enterprise, and scans of the ship show nothing.

They episodes don't contradict of course, behold:

Cube arrives in Alpha Quadrant, assimilates a few outposts. Cube leaves; there's nothing interesting here. The Federation and Romulans are too primitive to bother with. Cube leaves.

Q sends Enterprise 7,000 lightyears onward in a moment. Cube sees. Borg go: "Wtf!? We just were with these guys. They shouldn't be able to be here. They're primitive morons not worthy of assimilation! Better check this ship out."

"Yup, these guys are nothing as we knew, so how did they get here? And do they really think they can outrun us?"

Q arrives, and zip.

Borg: "What the hell!? There they go again! All right, that's it, no more Mr. Nice Borg; we assimilate the whole bloody bunch of 'em and be done wih it. That way we will certainly know what happened, and posses whatever technology just did that, if it is indeed technology."

So yes, if Q had not made the Federation enticing, it would have taken much longer before the Federation actually confronted the Borg.

 

[Venardhi]

^ And if the opening credits to IAMD are any indication, the Terran Empire existed at least during World War II (the marching troops with the Empire logo superimposed). Also, Mirror Archer said that the Empire had existed for 'centuries'.

As for multiple timelines in general: I'm still not convinced. As far as I'm concerned, each and every instance of Trek timetravel is predestined: they were always supposed to happen, and all resolved themselves into the same timeline we're familiar with. Except *maybe* for Trek XI, although it's still too early to tell.

IN DS9, we see very clearly an example of an altered timeline when Sisko takes the place of a historical figure and his face is recorded in history after they get back rather than that of the original.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

When is that "established"? Certainly not in that episode--nor prior to "Q Who?". I don't recall that it was unequivocally determined to have been the Borg at all (though I could be wrong--I've not seen TNG era episodes as often as TOS, so I don't recall all their details) and even IF it has been, I'd bet it was long enough after the episode for either A) it being another example of inconsistency (among many) in Trek or B) a post-FC episode of Voyager in which the assertion is part of the ret-con established by FC.

In the solar system from "Q Who?" where the Enterprise-D meets a Borg cube for the first time there was also a devastated class-M planet... and Data remarks that those devastations match with those from the Federation outposts which were destroyed the year before.

So unless you want to argue that a) Data was either mistaken or b) the Borg cube was just in that system by coincidence and had nothing to do with the destructions on this planet, the Borg were in fact responsible for the attacks on the Federation and Romulan outposts along the Neutral Zone.

I don't have a transcript for that episode, but the Memory Alpha article on "Q Who?" states:

A survey of the only Class M planet in the system reveals that while there was once a civilization there, it has been ripped away from the planet, "identical to what happened to the outposts along the Neutral Zone." A cube-shaped ship then approaches the Enterprise, and scans of the ship show nothing.

They episodes don't contradict of course, behold:

Cube arrives in Alpha Quadrant, assimilates a few outposts. Cube leaves; there's nothing interesting here. The Federation and Romulans are too primitive to bother with. Cube leaves.

Q sends Enterprise 7,000 lightyears onward in a moment. Cube sees. Borg go: "Wtf!? We just were with these guys. They shouldn't be able to be here. They're primitive morons not worthy of assimilation! Better check this ship out."

"Yup, these guys are nothing as we knew, so how did they get here? And do they really think they can outrun us?"

Q arrives, and zip.

Borg: "What the hell!? There they go again! All right, that's it, no more Mr. Nice Borg; we assimilate the whole bloody bunch of 'em and be done wih it. That way we will certainly know what happened, and posses whatever technology just did that, if it is indeed technology."

So yes, if Q had not made the Federation enticing, it would have taken much longer before the Federation actually confronted the Borg.

So, then there's not necessarily a contradiction between "Regeneration" and "Q Who?" because the Borg showed up in the Neutral Zone after having received the signal from the 22nd century.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

IN DS9, we see very clearly an example of an altered timeline when Sisko takes the place of a historical figure and his face is recorded in history after they get back rather than that of the original.

Then again, we never saw a picture of Gabriel Bell before that episode was made. If we had, and it had been the original, then maybe I'd get what you're saying. But for all we know, Sisko was always supposed to be Bell. The only time we ever see the original is back in 2024 itself. Who's to say his death and replacement by Sisko didn't "always" happen?

 

[Ovation]

Well, you could also argue that "Q Who?" contradicts itself. On the one hand, it is established that the Borg were probably responsible for the destruction of the Federation and Romulan outposts in "The Neutral Zone", on the other hand it is claimed that first contact with the Borg would have been decades away weren't it for Q's intervention.

How could anyone say that first contact would have been that far in the future after the Borg had already destroyed Federation outposts near the Neutral Zone a year earlier?

When is that "established"? Certainly not in that episode--nor prior to "Q Who?". I don't recall that it was unequivocally determined to have been the Borg at all (though I could be wrong--I've not seen TNG era episodes as often as TOS, so I don't recall all their details) and even IF it has been, I'd bet it was long enough after the episode for either A) it being another example of inconsistency (among many) in Trek or B) a post-FC episode of Voyager in which the assertion is part of the ret-con established by FC.

In the solar system from "Q Who?" where the Enterprise-D meets a Borg cube for the first time there was also a devastated class-M planet... and Data remarks that those devastations match with those from the Federation outposts which were destroyed the year before.

So unless you want to argue that a) Data was either mistaken or b) the Borg cube was just in that system by coincidence and had nothing to do with the destructions on this planet, the Borg were in fact responsible for the attacks on the Federation and Romulan outposts along the Neutral Zone.

I don't have a transcript for that episode, but the Memory Alpha article on "Q Who?" states:

A survey of the only Class M planet in the system reveals that while there was once a civilization there, it has been ripped away from the planet, "identical to what happened to the outposts along the Neutral Zone." A cube-shaped ship then approaches the Enterprise, and scans of the ship show nothing.

I stand corrected.