Am I the only one who misses the Gul Dukat from series three and four, and part of five? The "good" Dukat?
Anyone miss Dukat from series four?
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Yes, you are.
Seriously, though, I think any series runs the risk of over-using even the best of characters. So I think it was probably a good thing to have limited his use. Also, I think the evolution of the character was done so brilliantly - and naturally - that I wouldn't have changed a thing. Their use of Dukat was perfect.
Seriously, though, I think any series runs the risk of over-using even the best of characters. So I think it was probably a good thing to have limited his use. Also, I think the evolution of the character was done so brilliantly - and naturally - that I wouldn't have changed a thing. Their use of Dukat was perfect.
I certainly liked his development in that period, and was very disappointed later--not because they turned him back into an antagonist (which I could certainly buy), but because they turned him into a MAD INSANE EEEEVIL villain. Death of his daughter or no, it's a major step down in complexity from "He's a semi-ex-Nazi war criminal... so goddammit, he should stop making me like him!" to cackling mystic supervillain.
Of course, I thought turning Magneto back into a villain after he'd done a great job running the Xavier Institute was a mistake too, back in the day, so YMMV...
Of course, I thought turning Magneto back into a villain after he'd done a great job running the Xavier Institute was a mistake too, back in the day, so YMMV...
You are definitely not the only one who misses Dukat from seasons 1-5. That Dukat was a complex man with an interesting character. One of my favorite episodes featuring Dukat was The Maquis two parter. That was some great character development and back story. Even as the walls started to crumble during the Call to Arms - Sacrifice of Angels arc, Dukat was a very intriguing villain. You can't even compare those episodes to the nonsense starting with Waltz onward.
Dukat as a character was badly written towards the end. They couldn't seem to figure out if he was Sisko's arch enemy or Kira's arch enemy. There were better ways to have him atone for his crimes during the Occupation than turning him into a crazy demi god, tossed into hell during WYLB.
Dukat as a character was badly written towards the end. They couldn't seem to figure out if he was Sisko's arch enemy or Kira's arch enemy. There were better ways to have him atone for his crimes during the Occupation than turning him into a crazy demi god, tossed into hell during WYLB.
The opinion among the writing staff that Dukat was essentially a Cardassian Hitler never sat well with me. I don't think anyone would say he was a particularly benevolent Prefect when he presided over Bajor, but he also didn't set out to exterminate their species. Until they arbitrarily made him a madman, he never seemed like one before. If anything, he was a weak, insecure, small man who put on a veneer of arrogance and superiority. The only part of "Waltz" that rang true for me was his desire to be loved by the Bajorans. That is consistent with his character. In a lot of ways, all he ever wanted was to be loved and admired. That could be why Ziyal affected him so much. It wasn't necessarily the fact that she was his daughter, but that she adored him unconditionally.
This is a guy who was always out for himself and his own selfish needs. He may have done the "right thing" on occasion, but it was almost always to serve his own ends. I wish the writers had left his nuance and complexity in place. There could have been a much more interesting "final showdown" between Dukat and Sisko if they had focused on truly contrasted the men. Sisko was loved by the Bajorans as their Emissary, something he never asked for. Dukat, in his own mind, worked his ass off to earn the love of the Bajorans, and the vast majority of them would rather see him dead.
But I don't think becoming the anti-Emissary was consistent with his character. He wanted to be loved, not hated, and I would think he learned from his experiences as Prefect that people fearing you is not on the same level as them respecting or loving you.
In other words, the writers made him forget what motivated him in the first place.
This is a guy who was always out for himself and his own selfish needs. He may have done the "right thing" on occasion, but it was almost always to serve his own ends. I wish the writers had left his nuance and complexity in place. There could have been a much more interesting "final showdown" between Dukat and Sisko if they had focused on truly contrasted the men. Sisko was loved by the Bajorans as their Emissary, something he never asked for. Dukat, in his own mind, worked his ass off to earn the love of the Bajorans, and the vast majority of them would rather see him dead.
But I don't think becoming the anti-Emissary was consistent with his character. He wanted to be loved, not hated, and I would think he learned from his experiences as Prefect that people fearing you is not on the same level as them respecting or loving you.
In other words, the writers made him forget what motivated him in the first place.
MeanJoePhaser
Admiral
Yeah, "Waltz" and post, he just wasn't as, well, cool. But props to Marc Alaimo for still making him worthwhile even then.
I can see the pah-wraiths as a means to regain power and prestige. But he became a believer, which doesn't ring true. He only believes in himself. The episode Covenant was mixed in that regards, we see the self-serving Dukat but at the same time...it's not convincing that he became the accepted leader of that cult.
So what else could they have done? Dukat in Damar's role...revolting against the Dominion? Dying like Damar did?
Disappearing, only to be revealed as the Breen Leader Thot Gor (some fan edit on youtube implied that!)?
I can see the pah-wraiths as a means to regain power and prestige. But he became a believer, which doesn't ring true. He only believes in himself. The episode Covenant was mixed in that regards, we see the self-serving Dukat but at the same time...it's not convincing that he became the accepted leader of that cult.
So what else could they have done? Dukat in Damar's role...revolting against the Dominion? Dying like Damar did?
Disappearing, only to be revealed as the Breen Leader Thot Gor (some fan edit on youtube implied that!)?
I think Dukat's initial idea WAS to use the Pah-Wraiths as a means to an end. He thought he could control it, but it backfired just like his decision to bring in the Dominion backfired on his people. He meddled with entities capable of meddling further with his mind--we saw what the Prophets did to the Grand Nagus once, how they fundamentally altered his moral compass. I have a feeling the Pah-Wraiths did the same thing.
I disagree that it's not convincing that he could've led that cult. I mean, when you read about some of the WILD stuff people in real life bought into and killed themselves for (Heaven's Gate, especially--these people killed themselves over a freaking COMET), I can see some particularly disturbed and desperate individuals buying into the idea of a "redeemed" devil-figure like Dukat. "Covenant," more than any of the other red-eye stories to follow, was the one I genuinely found freaky.
He seemed to become a brainwashed true believer pretty damn quickly. Too quick for my tastes. Shouldn't have happened at all.
Yes, everyone misses the good Dukat. Fubaring Dukat in Waltz was hands-down the biggest mistake they made with the series. It boggles my mind why they thought it was a good idea to sabotage a brilliant, 3-dimensional character into a one-dimensional 'pure evil' caricature. That's the type of show-killing thing I would have expected of Berman or Braga, but not Ira Behr. 
I think we all agree there would've been better directions to take the character in. But my personal take is that even though it happened, some of the bashing goes too far because of how well Alaimo acted in spite of the writers.
But the speed at which he became a brainwashed believer--we'd have to retcon away that whole incident with the Grand Nagus in the Wormhole too, before we could say that was impossible. Was it the best choice of plot? No, but we did have canon precedents.
I would suppose that I am one of the few the feels that Dukat's character was handled well from beginning to end. Up until he became a total mad man he had always been conflicted about his actions. He was always trying to justify his actions to him self or others. So after the death of his daughter and in the episode "Waltz" he just accepted who and what he was or maybe he accepted what other felt he was.
Either way he finally chose one path and the shades of gray vanished from his mind / soul and he was essencially reborn into something more basic. I think this is what bugs most people about the change in his character, when he stopped being several shades of gray and became a pure black hat. I kind of agree thats less interesting that something thats pure and simple but really becoming a black hat was the next logical step.
Either way he finally chose one path and the shades of gray vanished from his mind / soul and he was essencially reborn into something more basic. I think this is what bugs most people about the change in his character, when he stopped being several shades of gray and became a pure black hat. I kind of agree thats less interesting that something thats pure and simple but really becoming a black hat was the next logical step.
I believe Ira Behr gave an interview once where he stated that the reason why they decided to make Dukat pure evil was because people liked him too much. They always knew he was the main villain of the series, but they decided to trick people into thinking he was a good guy for a while. The unintended consequence of this was that people fell in love with the character and started to believe the lies he was telling about the occupation. They were apparently shocked to find out that people were on message boards defending the guy for his role in the occupation.
When he betrayed the Alpha Quadrant to the Dominion, this didn't deter his fans and they started justifying this too. The writers saw this as a major failing on their part because they had made the guy too likeable, so they decided to make him go completely to the dark side and get rid of any trace of ambiguity. Yet still people defend him.
When he betrayed the Alpha Quadrant to the Dominion, this didn't deter his fans and they started justifying this too. The writers saw this as a major failing on their part because they had made the guy too likeable, so they decided to make him go completely to the dark side and get rid of any trace of ambiguity. Yet still people defend him.
For those who miss that Dukat, I encourage you to pick up the three part Terok Nor novel series. VERY good series with a lot of Dukat in his early years.
I believe Ira Behr gave an interview once where he stated that the reason why they decided to make Dukat pure evil was because people liked him too much. They always knew he was the main villain of the series, but they decided to trick people into thinking he was a good guy for a while. The unintended consequence of this was that people fell in love with the character and started to believe the lies he was telling about the occupation. They were apparently shocked to find out that people were on message boards defending the guy for his role in the occupation.
When he betrayed the Alpha Quadrant to the Dominion, this didn't deter his fans and they started justifying this too. The writers saw this as a major failing on their part because they had made the guy too likeable, so they decided to make him go completely to the dark side and get rid of any trace of ambiguity. Yet still people defend him.
that is unbelievably simplistic thinking (and not just on your part) on the part of a writer, ANY writer. a writer should be worried not about whether a character is liked or hated, but how textured the character is. so, there's no use LOLing about whether or not people are defending Dukat. if you'd given some of the posts on this thread more than the cursory glance you have obviosly given them, then you would know exactly WHY we do not like what they did.
thanks, I second your recommendation.
You think I don't understand why people dislike what the writers did to Dukat? You think I don't agree with the people posting here? If you had given my post more than the cursory glance you have obviously given it then maybe you would understand that I was laughing at the writers. I was merely giving the explanation as to why they made Dukat evil during the final two seasons since nobody else seemed to bring it up in the thread.
You shall find the internet a far more pleasant place when you stop jumping to conclusions about people.
I agree. I really enjoyed Dukat's character devlopment up until he went barmy after Ziyal was killed. He'd been shown as a nasty bastard for the first two or three years, ultimately developing morals and purpose in season 4/early season 5. He sold out his peope to the Dominion which was brilliant at the time, but he ultimately lost something by reverting to type. Worshipping the Pah-Wraiths was the low-point for his character. There was a lot of potential in a fight between the Emissary who never asked for the Bajoran attention, against the anti-Emissary who craved it. It was totally squandered, and I thought that Dukat had more issues with Kira anyway.
I haven't read anyone mentioning this so here goes:
Dukat envied Sisko. From the moment Sisko came out of the wormhole in Sacrifice of the Angels, Dukat went nuts. Dukat never believed in the pah-wraiths, or if he did Alaimo's acting certainly gave the inflection of a hypocrite. He wanted to trump Sisko, he wanted to beat Sisko at his own game. During the entire invasion arc, Dukat holds Sisko's baseball. Dukat makes Sisko get on his knees during their final confrontation. I always saw it as an egomaniac who felt insecure when faced with someone who freely got everything he wanted. Sisko never asked to be a hero, to be loved by the Bajorans, to be a Chosen One. Dukat's entire motivations from Angels onward was to be Sisko's equal and opposite. Well, SUPERIOR and opposite. Heh.
Dukat envied Sisko. From the moment Sisko came out of the wormhole in Sacrifice of the Angels, Dukat went nuts. Dukat never believed in the pah-wraiths, or if he did Alaimo's acting certainly gave the inflection of a hypocrite. He wanted to trump Sisko, he wanted to beat Sisko at his own game. During the entire invasion arc, Dukat holds Sisko's baseball. Dukat makes Sisko get on his knees during their final confrontation. I always saw it as an egomaniac who felt insecure when faced with someone who freely got everything he wanted. Sisko never asked to be a hero, to be loved by the Bajorans, to be a Chosen One. Dukat's entire motivations from Angels onward was to be Sisko's equal and opposite. Well, SUPERIOR and opposite. Heh.
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