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Question for religious Christians

Well, seeing as Christmas was originally a pagan holiday and Jesus was definately not born on December 25th, I don't really mind when people don't celebrate the birth of Christ.

Personally, though, I do use the time ro reflect on God and what he's done for us - christmas morning I woke up and read the story of Christ's birth from the gospel of Matthew. And then I shamelessly ripped open gifts from under the christmas tree =)
 
Strictly speaking, for Protestants in particular, celebrating Christmas is a matter of liberty. For many of us, it's just another calendar day, so not celebrating it isn't of consequence.

It's not a matter of liberty for Catholics. It's part of their liturugical calendar.

In fact, part of the Protestant issue with observing Christmas is the bacchanalian nature in which Christmas is often celebrated.

Personally, because it's a traditional family holiday, I observe it - but not because of any religious significance. If my Mom wasn't alive, I would probably go see friends, or I'd just spend it alone. So, the "secularization" of the day doesn't really bother me.
 
That's rather off the mark, though, to say they were "made up". Much of what was created was inspired and formed by teachings in Catholicism. I guess on that level you can say they were "made up".

It's true that there is a sort of ignorance on the part of some as to the origins of some holidays, but to say that they just "obey their preachers and complain because Christmas is commercialized" betrays a certain lack of information about these Protestant denominations. I hope it isn't a prejudice against them. Since I am no authority on the Reformation, I can't really speak in any great detail. I can only speak as one of those Protestants from all my life. Speaking of what I have witnessed being done.
The originaters of most of the younger Protestant churches weren't trained by the older churches. They built their religions by reading the Bible. This was, for most part, on purpose, they were rejecting the other teachings of the older churches.

They rejected the idea that much of Christianity wasn't written in the bible but passed on directly. They rejected the idea that the practices and rituals of the other churches were intrinsic to Christianity. The founders never learned those practices and teachings, they weren't trained priests or monks.

They did create new religions from scratch, based in part on outside observation of primarily Catholic practices.

They have every right to call themselves Christian, they have every right to call what they have religion, but no, it has no basis beyond anything you or I could make up on the spot right now by picking up a bible and preaching on a street corner.

I think it's absurd for these denominations to have an opinion on Christmas that should be given any weight. They don't have Mass, Christmas really has no more to do with them than it does to an atheist who puts up a tree and puts presents under it.

Easter is "holy day" for a reason. Christmas isn't holy. It's celebrated just because it was a popular festival and the early church wanted to absorb the common folk. There's a big difference there. It's especially farcical to criticize commercialization and secularization of Christmas considering it was created by the early church purely for "commercial" reasons to begin with.

And I'm sorry if I'm coming across that younger Protestant religions aren't "real" or whatever, I'm really not trying to say that.
 
Christmas is how you want to celebrate it.

If you're religous you invite a lot of the Jesus and God aspects of it on Christmas, as it was intended. If you're secular you don't but still exchange gifts, put up the tree, etc.

There's little reason why the two should be tied together.

It's "spirit" and intent should be love, family, warmth and giving as well as celebrting the Winter Solstice.
I totally agree with this except I see a tie between the gift-giving and the birth of Christ: the 3 kings. Of course we forget, but on various occasions we do religion-related things without being aware of it.

When we're being generous and put ourselves in a "universal love" mood, we do what religion recommends. So in a way, for an atheist, or agnostic, like me, Christmas is one of the few occasions to be a little religious.
Besides, birth is about hope, like the upcoming year. It's the best part of the religious calendar. (For who isn't attached to the notion of resurrection. By the way, seriously, immortality is more certainly in reproduction than in the individual soul.)

Anyway, I see no need to believe in God in order to have spirituality or to live according to the philosophy or rules of good behaviour that religion is about. A lot of Christian culture is encoded in western society, more than we sometimes care to admit.

(It musn't be very effective, though. The gift-giving works in closed circuit. You could say that's the more pagan side: the cyclic side of things. Which reminds me, though, that celebrating cycles also suggests the notion of resurrection - only universal, not individual; and personally, I'd rather celebrate that.)

Sure, being actually religious helps upholding those principles and forgetting about oneself. I've often lamented having to go without that kind of conviction to strengthen me.

But I just can't be in tune with a praying crowd during mass, Christmas or otherwise. When religious fervour becomes tangible for me, I feel like I'm witnessing a kind of mime. It isn't to say that the invisible has no existence, but being invisible to me (not that I want proof, but I'd like to touch it with my mind, like the song goes), witnessing the cult make me very uncomfortable in relation to the congregation.

Even if it's more about faith making people better and stonger than about the existence or non-existence of God (although I don't suppose anyone has faith without believing in God - yet that's not a stupid question. A lot of priests and ministers go through crises of faith), but the strict belief, as opposed to the broader notion of faith I'm trying to define in my heathen simplistic way, almost makes me sad.
Sorry, I don't mean to insult anyone's beliefs. It's just how I feel when I'm exposed to it too closely.

Anyway, I'm drifting off topic here.

We can't celebrate Christ-mas without at least one thought for religion. Or one has to be consistent and call it something else, maybe choose another day, or at least follow different rules.

...But it wouldn't be the first tradition that would have lost its religious meaning. Perhaps we don't have to know exactly why we do some of the things we do. It just happens.

And there need be no strict barrier between religious and secular, between believers and non-believers. I even think it may be as with political opinions and voting choices. Sometimes they don't correspond.

Being part of a religious denomination, and even cult, is a bit like voting for or adhering to a political party: it may be inherited while not reflecting one's true beliefs. And some practice their convictions without giving them their common name, without "belonging". Without knowing, sometimes.

So no strict definition or division.

Oh, and I think that splitting hairs about the date is a bit beside the point. :D
What matters is that it happens at least once a year.

To me personally, it's a chance for family reunion and breaking out the good stuff (and the best intentions) at least once a year. And that means a lot.
 
That's rather off the mark, though, to say they were "made up". Much of what was created was inspired and formed by teachings in Catholicism. I guess on that level you can say they were "made up".

It's true that there is a sort of ignorance on the part of some as to the origins of some holidays, but to say that they just "obey their preachers and complain because Christmas is commercialized" betrays a certain lack of information about these Protestant denominations. I hope it isn't a prejudice against them. Since I am no authority on the Reformation, I can't really speak in any great detail. I can only speak as one of those Protestants from all my life. Speaking of what I have witnessed being done.
The originaters of most of the younger Protestant churches weren't trained by the older churches. They built their religions by reading the Bible. This was, for most part, on purpose, they were rejecting the other teachings of the older churches.

They rejected the idea that much of Christianity wasn't written in the bible but passed on directly. They rejected the idea that the practices and rituals of the other churches were intrinsic to Christianity. The founders never learned those practices and teachings, they weren't trained priests or monks.

They did create new religions from scratch, based in part on outside observation of primarily Catholic practices.

They have every right to call themselves Christian, they have every right to call what they have religion, but no, it has no basis beyond anything you or I could make up on the spot right now by picking up a bible and preaching on a street corner.

I think it's absurd for these denominations to have an opinion on Christmas that should be given any weight. They don't have Mass, Christmas really has no more to do with them than it does to an atheist who puts up a tree and puts presents under it.

Easter is "holy day" for a reason. Christmas isn't holy. It's celebrated just because it was a popular festival and the early church wanted to absorb the common folk. There's a big difference there. It's especially farcical to criticize commercialization and secularization of Christmas considering it was created by the early church purely for "commercial" reasons to begin with.

And I'm sorry if I'm coming across that younger Protestant religions aren't "real" or whatever, I'm really not trying to say that.

1. Which "younger Protestant denominations" do you have in mind?

The Reformers of the first several generations were very much "trained by the older churches." The evangelical Reformed churches, to this very day use confessions and theologies from the 16th and 17th centuries. The SBC was founded in the 19th century, by churches each of which held to the Second London Baptist Confession of 1689, which is drawn from the Savoy Confession and the Westminster Confession. Both Reformed Baptists and Presbyterians today are widely influenced by theologians like Francis Turretin. Turretin was deeply immersed in the Western tradition. One can even trace the history of Westiminster Seminary back to the days of Jonathan Edwards. We also have well known Patristics scholars among us. The same can be said of the Lutherans, even the evangelical Anglicans.

2. They rejected the idea that much of Christianity wasn't written in the bible but passed on directly.

No, they rejected the idea that doctrine and practice is infallibly rooted in both Scripture and tradition. At the time, the Catholic Church's rule of faith was Partim-Partim. The Protestants to which you seem to be referring rejected that in favor of Sola Scriptura. Sola Scriptura does not reject tradition qua tradition. It merely rejects the infallibility of tradition. That view grew up right alongside Partim-Partim for many centuries until the split of the Reformation. They came to reject seven sacraments over only two, for example, insofar as only two are to be found in Scripture. However, they did not reject notions such as marriage, funerals, the role of elders, etc. I'd also point out that for such items as justification - there were many views of justification in the Western Church at the time of the Reformation, because the Western Church had not (infallibly) determined a particular view. Trent ensconced one against the Protestants. Justification by faith alone is a doctrine to be found in "tradition" as well as Scripture for that reason. So, what you say is inaccurate. Protestantism's rule of faith is far more nuanced.

The founders never learned those practices and teachings, they weren't trained priests or monks.

Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Cranmer, to name just a few - they weren't trained priests or monks? Where did you get that idea?

If that's what you think about the Reformers, the Reformation, the High Orthodox era of Protestantism, and Protestant doctrinal thought,then I strongly suggest you take a gander at Post-Reformation Reformed Dogmatics by Richard Muller. It documents exactly the reverse of your statements here.

I think it's absurd for these denominations to have an opinion on Christmas that should be given any weight. They don't have Mass, Christmas really has no more to do with them than it does to an atheist who puts up a tree and puts presents under it.

3. On the one hand there's a certain level of truth there. Christmas is a Romanist holy day. However, on the other, Protestants are free to practice it if they so choose. So, why shouldn't they be allowed to have a religious opinion of it that has no weight at all?

It's celebrated just because it was a popular festival and the early church wanted to absorb the common folk. There's a big difference there. It's especially farcical to criticize commercialization and secularization of Christmas considering it was created by the early church purely for "commercial" reasons to begin with.

Actually, the reason for the choice of December 25 is not known.

The December 25 date was chosen for multiple (and sometimes unknown) reasons, and it was adopted in different places at different times. It's misleading to claim that "the Emperor Constantine chose the date" or "the Catholic Church chose December 25th," or it was chosen for "commercial reasons."

Joseph Kelly writes:

"In 274 Aurelian [a Roman emperor] instituted the cult of Sol Invictus, the Unconquered Sun....Aurelian made December 25, the winter solstice, the birthday of Sol Invictus and thus a major feast day throughout the Roman Empire....In 336 the local church at Rome proclaimed December 25 as the dies natalis Christi, 'the natal day of Christ,' that is, his birthday. The document which says this does not justify or explain it. It merely says that this is the day, that is, the date had been accepted by the Roman church some time before and since everyone knew about it, discussion of the date was not necessary. But how long before 336 was the date for Christmas accepted? Historians have wondered whether the Christians in the late third century had waged a propaganda war against Aurelian, promoting their Sun of Righteousness [Jesus in the context of Malachi 4:2], the Sol Iustitiae against his Unconquered Sun, the Sol Invictus....We should also recall that Sextus Julius Africanus [a Christian who wrote during the first half of the third century] had already proposed December 25 as the date of Christ's birth. Aurelian's opponents may have plausibly reasoned that if the date already existed [in Christian circles], why not use it against the imperial cult of the Sun?...The second piece of evidence for a third-century propaganda struggle is a work of art, a mosaic on the ceiling of a tomb of the family Julii and now preserved in the necropolis (Greek for 'city of the dead') under St. Peter's basilica in Rome. It portrays Christ driving a chariot through the heavens, just as the pagan sun god Helios did, and Jesus, like the god, has rays of light emanating from his head....They date the mosaic to the late third century, that is, at the time when the emperor Aurelian was promoting the cult of the Unconquered Sun. Significantly, this is the only ancient portrayal of Christ as the sun. Historians find it impossible to believe that this portrayal was just coincidentally produced in the city of Rome at the very time when the pagans were promoting the cult of their sun." (The Origins Of Christmas [Collegeville, Minnesota: Liturgical Press, 2004], pp. 65-68)

William Tighe:

"Rather, the pagan festival of the 'Birth of the Unconquered Son' instituted by the Roman Emperor Aurelian on 25 December 274, was almost certainly an attempt to create a pagan alternative to a date that was already of some significance to Roman Christians. Thus the 'pagan origins of Christmas' is a myth without historical substance....Thus, December 25th as the date of the Christ’s birth appears to owe nothing whatsoever to pagan influences upon the practice of the Church during or after Constantine’s time. It is wholly unlikely to have been the actual date of Christ’s birth, but it arose entirely from the efforts of early Latin Christians to determine the historical date of Christ’s death. And the pagan feast which the Emperor Aurelian instituted on that date in the year 274 was not only an effort to use the winter solstice to make a political statement, but also almost certainly an attempt to give a pagan significance to a date already of importance to Roman Christians. The Christians, in turn, could at a later date re-appropriate the pagan 'Birth of the Unconquered Sun' to refer, on the occasion of the birth of Christ, to the rising of the 'Sun of Salvation' or the 'Sun of Justice.'"


Also:

"St. Augustine observes somethere that the Donatists 'differ from us' in not observing the day [January 6], which was not the case with regard to 25 December, and which in turn implies that 25 December was a 'liturgically significant day' before the Catholic/Donatist split of 310 and onwards."
 
Christmas is a Christian holiday, regardless of the date on which it is celebrated.

To me, it's like going to birthday party, eating and drinking one's fill, getting nice party favours, and never acknowledging (or even believing in) the birthday boy. Not so much insulting as . . . rude.

I fond this sort of attitude just divisive more than anything.

Should I sit at home and have nothing to do with the Christians in my family today because I don't believe the same things they do? They want me here, i'm not gonna let people guilt trip me about enjoying the celebration with them :rolleyes:
That wasn't the point of the original question, nor of my answer from my perspective. I think it's rude to insist that Christmas has nothing to do with Christ, that it stands for all kinds of generalized feelings, which could be celebrated on any other day of the year, all under the umbrella justification that it wasn't really December 25, that it's a co-opted pagan date. To that I say, so what? Who cares what the date is? We celebrate the event, not the date, and that event is profoundly meaningful and religious.

I don't get that, if you ask me what Christmas means to me, and you get a Christian response, don't be totally offended or shocked. It's like asking someone what Hanukkah means to them and getting pissed when they turn out to be jewish.
Just so.
 
blah blah blah
Your quotes from Kelly, Tighe, etc are revisionist nonsense. Saturnalia was written about by Seneca in the first century, hundreds of years before the references they cite. Dec 25 was a pagan celebration in Rome for at least several centuries beforehand. They igore this in order to refute it.

As far as your Baptist apology, I don't think you're fool enough to claim that Baptists have any appreciation or acceptance of Catholic dogma? They have rejected it and work from their own dogma, it is not an unbroken tradition or an evolution. Catholic beliefs, rituals and theology are missing from Baptist. Discarded, and even ridiculed. Citing the works of heretics hardly proves any kind of point.
 
I fond this sort of attitude just divisive more than anything.

Should I sit at home and have nothing to do with the Christians in my family today because I don't believe the same things they do? They want me here, i'm not gonna let people guilt trip me about enjoying the celebration with them :rolleyes:
That wasn't the point of the original question, nor of my answer from my perspective. I think it's rude to insist that Christmas has nothing to do with Christ, that it stands for all kinds of generalized feelings, which could be celebrated on any other day of the year, all under the umbrella justification that it wasn't really December 25, that it's a co-opted pagan date. To that I say, so what? Who cares what the date is? We celebrate the event, not the date, and that event is profoundly meaningful and religious.

But isn't there a difference between ignoring the religious aspect, and insisting it isn't there? The original question merely asked about those who ignore the religious aspect of Christmas.
 
We celebrate the event, not the date, and that event is profoundly meaningful and religious.
No, we don't. You do. ;) Others have different reasons. I celebrate the historical continuity of an ancient holiday that is a connecting thread through the ages to the beginnings of Human civilization.
 
Christmas is a Christian holiday, regardless of the date on which it is celebrated.

To me, it's like going to birthday party, eating and drinking one's fill, getting nice party favours, and never acknowledging (or even believing in) the birthday boy. Not so much insulting as . . . rude.

I fond this sort of attitude just divisive more than anything.

Should I sit at home and have nothing to do with the Christians in my family today because I don't believe the same things they do? They want me here, i'm not gonna let people guilt trip me about enjoying the celebration with them :rolleyes:
That wasn't the point of the original question, nor of my answer from my perspective. I think it's rude to insist that Christmas has nothing to do with Christ, that it stands for all kinds of generalized feelings, which could be celebrated on any other day of the year, all under the umbrella justification that it wasn't really December 25, that it's a co-opted pagan date. To that I say, so what? Who cares what the date is? We celebrate the event, not the date, and that event is profoundly meaningful and religious.

Well I see what you mean, but by ignoring the religious aspect of it so I can celebrate with the religious members of my family, I am not insisting that it has nothing to do with Christ. I am merely attempting to not be a hypocrite by celebrating something I don't believe in.

And if the date really doesn't matter, then what does it matter if people have their secular celebrations on that day? Why do Christians need to see it as a conflict of interests at all? Has it occurred to you that it is the Christian insistance that it is wrong to have a secular celebration on this day that moves people to voice their rejection of the religious aspects, whereas otherwise they might have just kept their heads down and enjoyed the day for their own reasons?
 
blah blah blah
Your quotes from Kelly, Tighe, etc are revisionist nonsense. Saturnalia was written about by Seneca in the first century, hundreds of years before the references they cite. Dec 25 was a pagan celebration in Rome for at least several centuries beforehand. They igore this in order to refute it.

As far as your Baptist apology, I don't think you're fool enough to claim that Baptists have any appreciation or acceptance of Catholic dogma? They have rejected it and work from their own dogma, it is not an unbroken tradition or an evolution. Catholic beliefs, rituals and theology are missing from Baptist. Discarded, and even ridiculed. Citing the works of heretics hardly proves any kind of point.

You're argument is that Dec. 25 was taken because there was an already existing pagan celebration and that the early church did so. If you're going to make arguments from church history and the actions of the churches, then you need to deal with church historians. Simply dismissing them isn't an argument. Nobody denies Saturnalia existed - however, when you start attributing motives, it's up to you make the argument for the leap from the existence of that day to the reasons the church(es) adopted it.

Some scholars believe that the date was used by Christians first, and pagans may have borrowed the date from Christianity. Some scholars cite Hippolytus and Julius Africanus, who lived in the second and third centuries and wrote prior to the pagan celebration that's often cited, as the first sources to propose December 25 as Jesus' birthdate. Hendrik Stander, for example, writes that "Julius Africanus, however, argues in his Chronicle (A.D. 221) for a date in the winter, December 25." (in Everett Ferguson, editor, Encyclopedia of Early Christianity, [New York: Garland Publishing, Inc., 1999], p. 251) Even among the post-Nicene sources, the arguments for a December 25 date weren't dependent on pagan use of that date. John Chrysostom, for example, argued for December 25 on Christian grounds. The historian Philip Schaff wrote:

"It was at the same time, moreover, the prevailing opinion of the church in the fourth and fifth centuries, that Christ was actually born on the twenty-fifth of December; and Chrysostom appeals, in behalf of this view, to the date of the registration under Quirinius (Cyrenius), preserved in the Roman archives." (History of the Christian Church, Vol. 3, 7:77)

Given that Christmas was accepted in different parts of the world at different times and for different reasons, how can we attribute every celebration of the holiday to a desire to marry Christianity to paganism? If ante-Nicene Christians were using the December 25 date prior to the pagan holiday in question, and later Christians gave Christian reasons for the December 25 date, how would the presence of some pagan associations and a desire to rival paganism make the holiday pagan as a whole?

Of course, I didn't point to Baptists alone. I also discussed the Lutheran and Reformed traditions. Baptists hail from Anglicanism. Anglicanism hails from Catholicism on the one hand and the Reformed churches on the other- a via media.

Is Catholicism an "unbroken line of beliefs, rituals, and theology?" :guffaw:Hardly. False decretals...popes and antipopes! Where is the evidence for the Marian dogmas, papal succession, and prayers to the saints, and that's just for starters - going back to the beginning of Christianity? It's hard to trace an "unbroken line" of theology, let's say for justification by infused merit alone, when we can find justification by faith alone in the Early Church Fathers and Rome had no defined position on justification until the Council of Trent Indeed, how did the early church get along without a canon of Scripture until Trent? Where's the Roman Catholic canon before then?

Do Baptists work from their "own" dogma? Hmmm, my church works from the Second London Baptist Confession of 1689. That's drawn from the Westminster Confession, a Presbyterian Confession, and the Savoy Confession, a Congregationalist Confession. The theology of both traceable to the first generation of Reformers, back to Gotschalk, and into Augustine, and from there back to Paul. I tell you what, why don't you support your "argument" with some actual facts. If you think that Baptist theology (which is not of one piece) is an illegitimate "evolution" of theological thought, then you need to show how Protestantism represents an illegitimate evolution of Catholic thought. Where's the supporting argument - oh, that's right - there isn't one to be had from you. If you think the Reformers worked from their own set of dogmas, then I welcome your full and complete review of Post-Reformation Reformed Dogmatics by Richard Muller. I've interacted with your namby pamby Catholic Answers replies more than once at Triablogue. You are more than welcome to ply your wares over there in any thread on Catholicism in 2009.
 
The founders never learned those practices and teachings, they weren't trained priests or monks.

I'm sorry if this is considered flaming, but that is probably the most ignorant thing I have ever read on Trekbbs.



mods can delete this if they like, but..wow. :eek:
 
The founders never learned those practices and teachings, they weren't trained priests or monks.

I'm sorry if this is considered flaming, but that is probably the most ignorant thing I have ever read on Trekbbs.
Yeah, that's Flaming and you'll end up with a Warning if you keep going that way. If you can't rebut someone without being insulting, it's probably best to avoid the conversation entirely.
 
Christmas is a Christian holiday, regardless of the date on which it is celebrated.

To me, it's like going to birthday party, eating and drinking one's fill, getting nice party favours, and never acknowledging (or even believing in) the birthday boy. Not so much insulting as . . . rude.
In fact, I don't celebrate Christmas per se. I celebrate a completely secular holiday, based on the date of the winter solstice and the beginning of the astronomical year, that was hijacked by ancient Pagans and modern Christians alike. And since I'm too lazy to take out of my ass a whole lot of new rites to celebrate it, I just join with the religious celebrations, and just care to have fun, exchange gifts, eat a lot of food, and in general be merry and close with family and friends.:)

This was never originally a Christian holiday. The common folk wouldn't stop celebrating Solstice/Saturnalia, so the Church declared this to be Jesus' birthday even though it wasn't.
This.
 
I adore Christmas.
It is my favorite time of year. It has also been, throughout the years, a time of heartache. This year was no different.

J.
 
I am an atheist. Every Christmas I visit my parents, eat a lot of cookies, drink a lot of eggnog, exchange presents with everyone, and admire my parents' artificial evergreen tree bearing colored lights, glass balls, and ornaments of Santa Claus, wise men, Frosty the snowman, angels, elves, and other cartoon characters, with a plastic star on top.

On Easter, my mother makes boiled eggs for breakfast, and gives everyone baskets of jelly beans and chocolate eggs.

To me, Christmas and Easter are no different from Halloween, Thanksgiving, Columbus Day, or my own birthday. They're just days on the calendar that may or may not involve candy.

Basically, I celebrate holidays because my mother will celebrate anything that involves eating chocolate or baking cookies, and I rather enjoy my mother's brand of "celebration." (My mother's mother is a Jehovah's Witness, and refers to Christmas as "that pagan tree-worshiping ritual." My mother still sends her a fruitcake every December.)

In my house, "celebrating" means "eating a lot." It has nothing to do with Santa Claus, Jesus, egg-laying bunnies, or other fictional characters.

To me, Santa has always been more "real" than Jesus, because I see him every year at the department store, and Jesus never left me a new Atari 2600 video game console under the tree. Why would I believe in him?

As a kid, I would devise scientific experiments to determine whether Santa was real, such as setting booby traps in the chimney, but I never once considered a test to prove whether Jesus was real, because it was so manifestly obvious that he was just a character in a single book (written by people who thought the sun and planets orbited Earth), and Jesus had no significance to my life on Christmas or any other day.

Besides, the original son of God was Hercules, who performed a series of miracles and died for his sins. You can look up in the night sky and see Hercules as a constellation. I've never seen a Jesus constellation (unless you count that burned piece of toast sold on eBay last year).

To me, a religion is just the mythology that a small group of people happen to believe at the moment. Their descendants will believe in a different mythology in a thousand years, and think the people who believed in the previous mythology were a bunch of ignorant "pagans."

I would still "celebrate" Christmas if it were the birthday of Hercules, Moses, Ra the sun god, or Frosty the snowman. As long as it involves candy canes, eggnog, and cookies, I say, "Merry Christmas."

(It's hard to explain atheism to someone with faith. It's like UFO-abductees feel that flying saucers and little green men are the most important things in their life and to human history, and think about them every day, but us non-believers can still have fun visiting the Roswell alien museum once a year and buying a UFO T-shirt. And atheists can still visit an old mosque or cathedral and admire the architecture, just like Christians and Muslims visit ancient Greek temples or the Egyptian pyramids. You don't have to share the creators' beliefs to appreciate the culture and traditions.)
 
I am an atheist. Every Christmas I visit my parents, eat a lot of cookies, drink a lot of eggnog, exchange presents with everyone, and admire my parents' artificial evergreen tree bearing colored lights, glass balls, and ornaments of Santa Claus, wise men, Frosty the snowman, angels, elves, and other cartoon characters, with a plastic star on top.

On Easter, my mother makes boiled eggs for breakfast, and gives everyone baskets of jelly beans and chocolate eggs.

To me, Christmas and Easter are no different from Halloween, Thanksgiving, Columbus Day, or my own birthday. They're just days on the calendar that may or may not involve candy.

Basically, I celebrate holidays because my mother will celebrate anything that involves eating chocolate or baking cookies, and I rather enjoy my mother's brand of "celebration." (My mother's mother is a Jehovah's Witness, and refers to Christmas as "that pagan tree-worshiping ritual." My mother still sends her a fruitcake every December.)

In my house, "celebrating" means "eating a lot." It has nothing to do with Santa Claus, Jesus, egg-laying bunnies, or other fictional characters.

To me, Santa has always been more "real" than Jesus, because I see him every year at the department store, and Jesus never left me a new Atari 2600 video game console under the tree. Why would I believe in him?

As a kid, I would devise scientific experiments to determine whether Santa was real, such as setting booby traps in the chimney, but I never once considered a test to prove whether Jesus was real, because it was so manifestly obvious that he was just a character in a single book (written by people who thought the sun and planets orbited Earth), and Jesus had no significance to my life on Christmas or any other day.

Besides, the original son of God was Hercules, who performed a series of miracles and died for his sins. You can look up in the night sky and see Hercules as a constellation. I've never seen a Jesus constellation (unless you count that burned piece of toast sold on eBay last year).

To me, a religion is just the mythology that a small group of people happen to believe at the moment. Their descendants will believe in a different mythology in a thousand years, and think the people who believed in the previous mythology were a bunch of ignorant "pagans."

I would still "celebrate" Christmas if it were the birthday of Hercules, Moses, Ra the sun god, or Frosty the snowman. As long as it involves candy canes, eggnog, and cookies, I say, "Merry Christmas."

(It's hard to explain atheism to someone with faith. It's like UFO-abductees feel that flying saucers and little green men are the most important things in their life and to human history, and think about them every day, but us non-believers can still have fun visiting the Roswell alien museum once a year and buying a UFO T-shirt. And atheists can still visit an old mosque or cathedral and admire the architecture, just like Christians and Muslims visit ancient Greek temples or the Egyptian pyramids. You don't have to share the creators' beliefs to appreciate the culture and traditions.)

That sounds like an enjoyable to celebrate the spirit of the holidays, whatever one's beliefs. It also helps that I love cookies. :D

J.
 
Hopefully they'll be back next year...for pre-boxed cookies, I have to recommend Pepperidge Farms and their gingerbread family cookies (man cookie, woman cookie, two happy kids cookie). Crunchy, delicious, and fresh off the shelf. I was severely disappointed when they killed 'em off about 2 weeks before Xmas this year. :(
 
Hopefully they'll be back next year...for pre-boxed cookies, I have to recommend Pepperidge Farms and their gingerbread family cookies (man cookie, woman cookie, two happy kids cookie).
That reminds me of a joke:
Q: What's the difference between a snow-man and a snow-woman?
A: Snowballs.
 
To me, Santa has always been more "real" than Jesus, because I see him every year at the department store, and Jesus never left me a new Atari 2600 video game console under the tree. Why would I believe in him?

As a kid, I would devise scientific experiments to determine whether Santa was real, such as setting booby traps in the chimney, but I never once considered a test to prove whether Jesus was real, because it was so manifestly obvious that he was just a character in a single book (written by people who thought the sun and planets orbited Earth), and Jesus had no significance to my life on Christmas or any other day.

Besides, the original son of God was Hercules, who performed a series of miracles and died for his sins. You can look up in the night sky and see Hercules as a constellation. I've never seen a Jesus constellation (unless you count that burned piece of toast sold on eBay last year).

To me, a religion is just the mythology that a small group of people happen to believe at the moment. Their descendants will believe in a different mythology in a thousand years, and think the people who believed in the previous mythology were a bunch of ignorant "pagans."

I would still "celebrate" Christmas if it were the birthday of Hercules, Moses, Ra the sun god, or Frosty the snowman. As long as it involves candy canes, eggnog, and cookies, I say, "Merry Christmas."

(It's hard to explain atheism to someone with faith. It's like UFO-abductees feel that flying saucers and little green men are the most important things in their life and to human history, and think about them every day, but us non-believers can still have fun visiting the Roswell alien museum once a year and buying a UFO T-shirt. And atheists can still visit an old mosque or cathedral and admire the architecture, just like Christians and Muslims visit ancient Greek temples or the Egyptian pyramids. You don't have to share the creators' beliefs to appreciate the culture and traditions.)

Very, very, very well said. Better than I could ever do. :techman:
 
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