Orci on Start Trek, timelines, canon and everything (SPOILERS)

[SalvorHardin]

So it's not an origins story then. It's about a completely different set of characters in a completely different Star Trek universe...

This goes back to a thread I started a couple of weeks ago saying that these people may feel like different characters to me.

And it has nothing to do with casting new actors. No matter how well the actors act and the writers write (the actors and writers can be 'spot on' with these characters), I will still have the nagging feeling that these are NOT the same familiar characters simply because these characters will be from an alternate timeline. The real Kirk, Spock et al. would be existing somewhere in another timeline.

I'm not saying that will necessarily make for a bad film. This could still be a great movie. But if they play the "alternate universe card" there will always be that little voice in my head that says these aren't exactly the same guys.

Especially considering if that's exactly what Orci, Kurtzman and Abrams are going to want me to believe from an "in-universe" standpoint -- that these are NOT the same people from TOS, but rather alternate timeline versions of the them.

Forgive me if this film does such a good job convincing me of this and I begin to believe that they are "alternate timeline" people, thus different.

Well, even if we disregard the time and universe issues, these were always going to be somewhat different characters.

Remember, we have been watching Kirk and co. for years and while they were grown, experienced people.
In Trek XI we will be seeing mostly young, inexperienced versions trying to find their way, mature and turn into these guys we've known for years.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

^
^^ I agree that these guys were "younger" anyway. But what about going forward?

I realize that Abrams and Co. said they are taking this one film at a time, and a sequel was not on their collective mind when they created this story (although I bet it was in the backs of their minds), but still -- what about sequels?

It seems to me that a potential ST:XII and ST:XIII may take place closer to, or even during the TOS timeline (which is fine by me, even if it overlaps TOS). But if the next films happen concurrently with TOS, I will still have that nagging feeling that these guys are different people than our familiar TOS heroes.

And, if I understand Orci correctly, that's exactly what I'm supposed to believe -- that these are technically not the same people.

The bottom line may be "So what? -- So these are different people, but Abrams' Star Trek films are still great". This may be true, but I'm not sure how I'm going to feel about that. I'll have to wait and find out, I guess.

 

[datas_cat_spot]

As long as the movie is good, I could really give a shit about which time line it's occurring in.

 

[Dane_Whitman]

Re: Bob Orci on Start Trek, timelines, canon and everything (SPOILERS)

But the thing that really caught my attention is his belief that every time we've seen time travel in Star Trek, it's created a new alternate timeline in a new quantium reality and that our characters have traveled on from that point.

First off, I think that's the exact opposite of what Star Trek has always said. Our characters, from City on the Edge of Forever through Trials and Tribble-ations and beyond, have always been concerned about the possibility of altering the timeline, have always set out to restore the timeline if something is changed, have always made it clear that they are travelling back and forth within their own timeline.

Secondly, I think Orci's view would be very unsatisfying for me if it were true. So that means that after Kirk, Spock and McCoy went back in time in CoTEoF, they spent the rest of the series on an entirely different ship with an entirely different crew. That Sisko did not return to the same DS9 as he had been at previously once he had gone and played the part of Gabriel Bell. And on and on and on. Instead, we've seen dozens of different parallel universes, all different from one another, and haven't truly watched these characters and their worlds develop over the years. I don't like that at all.

I see where you're coming from, but Orci hardly has the final word on this subject. I appreciate what they're doing with Trek XI. I think an alternate timeline that is permitted to continue is the way to go for the movie and its potential sequels, but that hardly reflects on all past Treks.

To me Star Trek is one timeline, whatever temporal incursions happened have been corrected by our heroes. This new Trek XI timeline will be the exception.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

As long as the movie is good, I could really give a shit about which time line it's occurring in.

I agree. But I would still love to see a TOS character origin movie. If I understand Orci correctly, this movie is not that (but that's not to say Abrams film won't be a great film.)

 

[Ovation]

In the vast majority of cases, when science and story needs clash in sci/fi (or in any genre, really) science loses. So it is no surprise that Orci's "explanation" of the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics is not consistent with our "real world" understanding of it. He appears to have borrowed what he wanted from it and combined it with his understanding of "Trek science" to create his explanation.

My sense is unless this "explanation" is verbalized during the film, it's irrelevant. For anyone who doesn't pore over every tidbit (the vast majority of the viewers of this film, for instance), the basic assumption will be that Spock has come "back from the future" to help set the timeline back on course and any differences will be attributable to the "impossibility" of correcting every deviation. Along the way, those viewers will either enjoy (or not) the story as it unfolds. I've seen every Trek film at the cinema since TWOK and the overwhelming majority of people at those screenings were not keenly discussing the finer points of warp technology, arguing over whether Spock's ears were the same size or shape as in the series, worrying about apparent time paradoxes and so on. They sat in the theatre enjoying a popcorn movie with some familiar characters (either directly or indirectly familiar).

Of course there were at least a few well-versed fans at those screenings (at least one as I was present ) but they NEVER constituted the majority of the audience at any screening I attended (except the five film marathon in the summer of 1991--very few "casual fans" were at that day's event). I've seen the various films in southern NH, Montreal, Toronto, Las Vegas and SW Ontario--in small towns and big cities--and I never saw an audience dominated by "serious fans". I doubt it will be any different this time around. And for the vast majority, this simply doesn't matter.

 

[RoJoHen]

I don't really get why people put so much weight on what these guys are saying. It's a reboot! It's not a reboot! Now it's an alternate universe!

Honestly guys, if it helps you think of this movie as a reboot, do that. If you'd rather try to reconcile the differences between this movie and the rest of the Star Trek universe, I'm sure you have the imagination to make that happen. If you want to believe that it's an alternate universe, go for it.

It doesn't matter. Just don't let what Abrams, Orci, and whoever else are saying to make or break your opinion of this movie, especially without seeing it yet.

 

[hamudm]

You know, to be honest, I get what they were trying to do with the "alternate universe\some things change because of time travel" thing.

But I don't really like it, that they chose to explain the visual or other changes and deviations from canon like this.

I would prefer they had not tried to reconcile things at all.
I would prefer they had gone the way of "It's a movie made in 2008-9 and we simply decided to update the old designs and simply disregard or change some canon facts. Deal with it."

Oh well...Still looking forward to May

You could just pretend you didn't read the article

 

[Ward Fowler]

The interview comes off as patronizing bullshit aimed at obsessive fans. I couldn't give a damn about the timeline or whether the stories I've watched and read for over 30 years still "exist" in a fantasy world. It all seems silly to me. What I care about is staying true to who the characters are and the quality of the writing. On those points I remain very skeptical.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

As long as the movie is good, I could really give a shit about which time line it's occurring in.

Absolutely Right(TM).

 

[Captain X]

FINALLY. Perhaps now the canon cry babies will shut the hell up.

That's just plain rude and uncalled for...and makes you appear to be just as bad as the folks your insulting.

I think it's pretty accurate and plenty called for.

I remember when I didn't understand why some Trek fans think other Trek fans are weirdos. Now I get it.

I'm as devoted as you get, but some of yall are are like babies. I think they are doing something pretty clever and quite frankly, generous, with this new timeline thing and some of you guys sound as petulant as ever.

What JJ Abrams truly could to be saying is to kiss his ass cuz he really doesn't need any of us "devotees" but he's not. We're gonna watch it anyway and you know that. We're gonna complain regardless and you know that too.

No, it's just an insult directed at people you apparently have decided to hate because they have a different opinion about a movie. I'm sure if the shoe were on the other foot you'd feel differently about it too. But by all means, troll and flame, it's not like the mods will do anything about it.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

The interview comes off as patronizing bullshit aimed at obsessive fans.

And here we are, on page 3.

Your point?

 

[Saul]

Re: Bob Orci on Start Trek, timelines, canon and everything (SPOILERS)

If a new alternate timeline is created when some changes the past then what is the point of time travel to fix it? because whatever was done in the past wouldn't effect the current timeline, just create a new one. So why bother trying to stop it at all?

Well, maybe Spock doesn't want a criminal from his universe destroying things and killing millions even if it is in another universe.

If he can stop it or warn them, it would be pretty selfish and uncharacteristic for him to say "Meh,to hell with it. Not my timeline"

But there are infinite timelines if we follow this line of thought. Spock can't save them all even if he knew he could.

 

[M'Sharak]

FINALLY. Perhaps now the canon cry babies will shut the hell up.

That's just plain rude and uncalled for...and makes you appear to be just as bad as the folks your insulting.

I think it's pretty accurate and plenty called for.

I remember when I didn't understand why some Trek fans think other Trek fans are weirdos. Now I get it.

I'm as devoted as you get, but some of yall are are like babies. I think they are doing something pretty clever and quite frankly, generous, with this new timeline thing and some of you guys sound as petulant as ever.

What JJ Abrams truly could to be saying is to kiss his ass cuz he really doesn't need any of us "devotees" but he's not. We're gonna watch it anyway and you know that. We're gonna complain regardless and you know that too.

No, it's just an insult directed at people you apparently have decided to hate because they have a different opinion about a movie. I'm sure if the shoe were on the other foot you'd feel differently about it too. But by all means, troll and flame, it's not like the mods will do anything about it.

No, I don't think Jessop's remark was particularly called-for, and I think this little off-topic digression has gone on for quite long enough, thank you. Captain X, if you have reason to think that a post requires attention, then you know what to do, but making accusations of trolling and flaming in-thread is most definitely not the way to go about it, and I believe you knew that as well.

 

[Vektor]

The bottom line is this: For all practical purposes, this is a reboot. They may have gone the extra mile to create an explanation within the context of the story for why things have changed, but the fact remains that things have changed and they will, evidently, not be reset back to "normal" when the end credits roll. Personally, I would have preferred a simple reboot, but I don't expect it to impact my enjoyment of the film much either way.

On a loosely related note, I think I'm going to go out on a limb and make a prediction here and now: The next Star Trek film will be a remake of The Doomsday Machine. You heard it here first.

 

[Basil]

So, since this is an alternate universe, these are no more the characters we know than those in the Mirror Universe; they're counterparts who share characteristics but are now free to grow and develop however they might.

In that case, the filmmakers should have some balls and kill one or two off (nominees: Chekov and/or Chapel, if she ends up in this film), make one or two an outed gay or bisexual (nominees: nominees: Chekov and/or Chapel, if she ends up in this film), and let our heroes NOT save the day, since they are not the same people we know and perhaps love. Anyone troubled by such changes can still enjoy the originals since the DVDs haven't changed, and Star Trek can be truly exciting since we wouldn't know what to expect. We can also add more minority characters since there's been an imbalance in Star Trek since the beginning.

 

[trekkerguy]

I love how people keep saying he's repeating himself, like he wants to. Only once did he says the theory was "Awesome", which it is. The guy asked the same stupid thing just in different ways, I would have answered the same.

And you're basing his intellect or knowledge of science off of that...

On a loosely related note, I think I'm going to go out on a limb and make a prediction here and now: The next Star Trek film will be a remake of The Doomsday Machine. You heard it here first.

Was just thinking that last night while I watched it. I'm in that boat with yah.

 

[Captain Robert April]

Well, enjoy the timeline while it lasts, kids, because one of those things that wouldn't be changed is that probe losing contact with the whales. And since it's doubtful that "Space Seed" is still gonna happen, or at least in the same way, therefore it's doubtful that any of these guys will be in the same position our guys were in at the point of ST IV, so they won't be in a position to save Earth. And according to these guys, the slingshot maneuver probably won't work anyway, so in about twenty years or so, Earth's gonna be an ice cube.

Enjoy.

As for the convoluted rationalization, yeah, it's an attempt to pander to crusty old farts like me by shunting this whole endeavor into an alternate timeline, and thus make it more palatable.

The problem is that I have no use for alternate timelines that have no real connection to the primary continuity (I really don't like the term "canon" and try to use it as sparingly as possible).

So, I feel no obligation whatsoever towards this flick.

 

[shapeshifter]

I'm more excited than ever! I now understand what is going on and whole-heartily except the changes for what they are; a respectful nod to the past while simultaneously setting a course towards a whole new future in which anything is now possible. Bring. It. On.

 

[Cyke101]

I'm now sick of reading the words 'quantum mechanics'.

You've been watching Trek for how long, and only NOW are you getting sick of "quantum mechanics?" Clearly, someone hasn't been watching Voyager!

And I don't get what all the hubbub is about. If it were a true reboot, then all of Trek history would be gone; on the contrary, it seems all of Trek history from the beginning of time up until the arrival of Nero is intact like we all remember it.

...wait a tic, oh dear god no... that means "Enterprise" counts! (Dammit!)

Or...

...the events of First Contact and Voyage Home still happened because they occurred before Nero's arrival.

Or...

...wibbly wobbly, timey-wimey!

While Orci's pseudo-scientific explanations sound a bit half-assed, two things:
-That's really no different than how science has been treated in the past. Much of Trek science is fantastical nonsense designed only to fit the needs of the plot, really
-This is still probably the most amount of research Orci's ever done for a project. It had better pan out.

One additional note: I really like the parallels drawn to Yesterday's Enterprise, in that one lone, almost-nameless and unexceptional ship (the C's really lucky to have the name Enterprise) carries THAT much weight on the time line. I'm waiting to see how the USS Kelvin turns out.