"I don't see no points on your ears, boy...but you sound like a Vulcan!"
"No, sir. I am an android."
"Hmph...almost as bad."
What would Kirk make of Data?
- Thread starter Benny Russell
- Start date
"I don't see no points on your ears, boy...but you sound like a Vulcan!"
"No, sir. I am an android."
"Hmph...almost as bad."
Data and the EMH are more than just machines in the world of Star Trek. Data represents the "outsider" just as Spock did. His journey is a metaphor for that of other "outsiders" struggles for acceptance in society. Its an expansion of the ideas of TOS and what "humanity" encompasses.
"I don't see no points on your ears, boy...but you sound like a Vulcan!"
"No, sir. I am an android."
"Hmph...almost as bad."
"You're not quite... human are you?
"No, sir. I am an android. My name is Commander Data."
"Synthetic scotch and synthetic commanders..."
Scotty was always the jovial but outspoken conservative. Doesn't mean he wouldn't have adapted to the reality of the situation in an eyeblink, though. He just had to get his obligatory disbelieving line and headshake in first.
McCoy in turn loved having enemies for friends. Or making enemies of friends. The walk into the distance in "Farpoint" could have been the beginning of a beautiful friendship, if not for the sad tripping over at the carpeting edge, and the subsequent total shattering of the porcelain-delicate old codger...
No, I don't think Kirk had anything against machines. In fact, he had a love affair with one for the duration of the series! When machines placed themselves in his way, he demolished them - but he did that to his flesh-and-blood enemies, too.
Timo Saloniemi
McCoy in turn loved having enemies for friends. Or making enemies of friends. The walk into the distance in "Farpoint" could have been the beginning of a beautiful friendship, if not for the sad tripping over at the carpeting edge, and the subsequent total shattering of the porcelain-delicate old codger...
No, I don't think Kirk had anything against machines. In fact, he had a love affair with one for the duration of the series! When machines placed themselves in his way, he demolished them - but he did that to his flesh-and-blood enemies, too.
Timo Saloniemi
The M5 computer was literally stealing his job. Data wouldn't be. I see no reason why Kirk would think any less of Data than any member of TNG crew.
So assuming that Kirk would accept Data, what about the EMH? How would Kirk treat him?
For that matter: Has *McCoy* ever met the EMH? Now that I'd like to see.
For that matter: Has *McCoy* ever met the EMH? Now that I'd like to see.
My thoughts on this are as Kirk would behave with anything.
If you were helping the captain defend the ship or fend off invaders, Kirk would accept the aid graciously.
But if Data ever got betweek Kirk and the Enterprise, GOD HELP HIM! And the worst thing you could ever do is give Kirk a minute "to talk with his crewmates," 'cause the captain would figure a way to take that time and blow the problem to Kingdom Come.
Of course, if the problem centered around a female of whatever Kirk was dealing with, he first used a kinder, gentler approach, and if that didn't work, he'd just slug her and get back to business.
I still can't figure out what's wrong with Kirk saving the ship and getting the space babe every week.
But I digress a bit.
If you were helping the captain defend the ship or fend off invaders, Kirk would accept the aid graciously.
But if Data ever got betweek Kirk and the Enterprise, GOD HELP HIM! And the worst thing you could ever do is give Kirk a minute "to talk with his crewmates," 'cause the captain would figure a way to take that time and blow the problem to Kingdom Come.
Of course, if the problem centered around a female of whatever Kirk was dealing with, he first used a kinder, gentler approach, and if that didn't work, he'd just slug her and get back to business.
I still can't figure out what's wrong with Kirk saving the ship and getting the space babe every week.
But I digress a bit.
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I think Kirk would make one of those tall lamps out of Data.
Thank you, Commander Maddox -- or is that Captain Louvois? I've seen you post this opinion a blue million times, but it just seems like a non-sequiter, and frankly, short-sighted.
Why would the idea of Data or the Doctor be a slap in the face to the original series? That seems to be such a narrow opinion. I think of both characters as part of the charter of all ST, to seek out new life forms.
If humanity does reach space, intelligent life will doubtless take so many different forms that people will need to expand their view of just what constitutes intelligent life.
As in Devil in the Dark, at that point, as expressed by Dr. McCoy, there was a school of thought that silicon-based life was physiologically impossible. Of course, Spock's supposition proved correct, because as a logical Vulcan and scientist, he looked for the facts. And thus, they discovered the Horta.
Therefore, this could mean that artificial life -- in the form of an android or a holographic intelligence -- would strive for the same goals natural-born life strives for. This would be apparent to those who let go of their preconceived notions that natural life-forms were superior to artificial intelligence, in this case, in the form of a Pinnochio-type android, or a grumpy hologram.
You see, I see Data and the Doctor as metaphors for the evolving view of who is entitled to basic rights in this life. Just as right now, gays aren't able to marry in the U.S., one day they will be able to, just as how African-Americans were once considered property, or under Jim Crow, couldn't vote.
Ah, but beaker, you're just a 20th century kind of guy. It's OK -- we luv ya, anyway!
As for the original question, I think Kirk's reaction would be a bit like Riker's in the beginning. But then, like Riker, Kirk would work with Data and discover his yearning to explore humanity, and he'd find him admirable. He'd probably even bust his chops in the same way he used to do that to Spock, in a good-natured manner.
As others pointed out, Kirk only short-circuited androids and computers when they presented a danger to him, his ship, his crew, and humanity.
Red Ranger
That's not what TNG's Data and VOY's Doctor were saying at all. Just because they're special, too, doesn't invalidate that humanity is special.
It's like the specious argument that gay marriage constitutes a threat to straight marriage. It's a canard.
Here's another thought: as you recall, both Data and the Doctor strove to be more than what they were, to be more human. Isn't that an homage to humanity being special?
And didn't Picard often marvel at the complexity of the human equation, and defend it to beings like Q, quoting Hamlet's "What a piece of work is man" soliloquoy, although not as a cynical criticism of humanity, but as a paean to it.
And just to stir the pot even futher, is man really that special? In a huge universe of billions of galaxies, each with billions of stars, maybe not!
Red Ranger
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I actually agree with Beaker here. Data is a tool with a great user-interface same as the EMH. I also think the striving to be human was just a bit of programming, added in to make humans feel less threatened by these marvels of modern technology.
Stripped of there programming... what would they actually be? Could they figure a way to survive? Could they learn to survive by watching those around them like an organic being?
Commander Maddox was right on the mark on this one in 'Measure of a Man'.
Strongly disagree with you there, pal. Commander Maddox was a bigot, pure and simple.
If you or I were "stripped of our programming," we couldn't survive either. You're looking at the characters in a narrow way, assuming that they're just the sums of their programs. I thought Data argued that effectively when he doubted that Maddox's method of downloading the information from his positronic brain would retain the "flavor" of his memories.
As you recall, in the ep with Ira Graves, when he downloaded his memories into Data's positronic brain, he retained the flavor of his individuality. When he later downloaded it into a more conventional computer, that flavor was lost. This can be seen as evidence that Data's positronic brain is more than just a memory bank.
I do think creating an AI with sentience, and even a soul, is possible, and we better hope it's more like Data than Skynet from the Terminator movies.
Red Ranger
If you strip him down to basic urges, "I'm hungry", could he make that leap as to what he'd need to do to feed himself? Without programming him on what he'd need to do? A child instinctively knows at birth to suck on a tit. Would an android make the leap to go plug himself into a wall socket?
People continue to make this leap that Data is greater than the sum of his programming. Yet no one knows what his programming actually is. Except for Soong. Same things apply for the EMH.
It's just another case of people wanting their toys to come to life. It's actually kind of sad.
Then you missed the point of both Data and the EMH, my man. And that, to me, is sadder than your whole "people wanting their toys to come to life" idea. I point to No Penguins' response earlier, because it sums up exactly what they represent:
"Data and the EMH are more than just machines in the world of Star Trek. Data represents the 'outsider' just as Spock did. His journey is a metaphor for that of other 'outsiders' struggles for acceptance in society. Its an expansion of the ideas of TOS and what 'humanity' encompasses."
In other words, you're taking the idea of an android and a hologram much too literally. This is the subtlety of science fiction as allegory. It seems to have gone over your and beaker's heads. Shame.
Red Ranger
Data had no "journey." At most he should have been a foil for humanity. Instead they chose to make it about him -- an inanimate object -- and cheapen everything it means to be human in the process.
What does it mean to be "human"?
It's really impossible to ever know whether another being is conscious or not - is it self-aware, or is it just programmed very well to pretend to be self-aware?
For me, the idea of Data's 'journey' was nullified when he only 'evolved' by adding the emotion chip. It spoke to me that he had NO potential for self-growth short of bolting more parts on, which lends itself to the 'programmed robot' interpretation and not the 'lifeform with individual rights' interpretation. I think this ruined his arc from a storytelling perspective.
For me, the idea of Data's 'journey' was nullified when he only 'evolved' by adding the emotion chip. It spoke to me that he had NO potential for self-growth short of bolting more parts on, which lends itself to the 'programmed robot' interpretation and not the 'lifeform with individual rights' interpretation. I think this ruined his arc from a storytelling perspective.
By reducing Data's quest to such a simplistic narrative, as you've done, misses the point. Of course it was about his journey, but it's also about the journey all life forms go through -- who am I? Why am I here? What does it mean to be happy or sad?
Data dealt with bigotry, jealousy, and even before he had an emotion chip (a development I disliked), he nearly kills out of revenge in the excellent The Most Toys. Frankly, I would have let him kill the collector, rather than cop out so as not to sully his mechanical angelic soul. That would have been an unexpected development. I would've liked if Data were a bit more flawed other than his inability to use contractions or know what a real emotion is (which I actually dispute, too).
Again, how does an android longing to be human cheapen what it means to be human? Were any of the characters' humanity cheapened as a result of the existence of Data? I don't think you can realistically come up with an example. Oh, maybe you can come up with a convoluted example, but that would cheapen the debate.
I guess you're hung up on comments from TOS like in Court Martial, where Cogley rails that by accepting the ship's computer as a witness, the proceedings were elevating the machine above humanity.
Or the debacle with M-5 in The Ultimate Computer. Let's remember that the reason that machine went mad is its "personality" was based on its creator's, a flawed human being (albeit a genius), who wasn't wrapped too tight at the time.
TOS is about more than that debate. It's also about having the intellectual heft to acknowledge other heretofore unknown beings as fellow life forms, like the Horta, a being that before its discovery was considered a scientific impossibility in many quarters.
The attitude that an android or hologram can't be a lifeform was challenged by the existence of Data and the Doctor. Those who refused to acknowledge that might as well join the Flat Earth Society.
Red Ranger
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