Would You Describe Yourself as a Nationalist/Patriot?

[ShamelessMcBundy]

I love my country, but not to the point of craziness.

Seconded.

If i may. I found a quote by the great Edward R. Murrow that sums it up for me rather nicely:

We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty. We must remember always that accusation is not proof and that conviction depends upon evidence and due process of law. We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason, if we dig deep in our history and our doctrine, and remember that we are not descended from fearful men — not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were, for the moment, unpopular.
... We can deny our heritage and our history, but we cannot escape responsibility for the result. There is no way for a citizen of a republic to abdicate his responsibilities. As a nation we have come into our full inheritance at a tender age. We proclaim ourselves, as indeed we are, the defenders of freedom, wherever it continues to exist in the world, but we cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home.

 

[Captain X]

I'm a patriot, and I'm proud of my country.

I'm proud to be an American and I didn't vote for McCain or Obama. I'm proud to be an American despite the wrongs it has committed in the past, including those wrongs committed against my Lakota ancestors. I'm proud to be an American despite the wrongs that are being committed now, like the Patriot Act, and everything else that's being done against my will by my country. Why am I still proud of my country? Because the ideals it stands for are worthy of fighting for, even if my country doesn't always live up to them. No nation is perfect now, and no nation is entirely without sins of the past, but it's what we fight for now that we can be proud of. So I'm proud of being American and the things I'm fighting for, even if it is for the rights that are supposed to already be protected under the Constitution.

 

[hellsgate]

I couldn't care less for Patriotism. Its always used to get the high-risk, low-income crowd to leap to self-conscription in the armed forces & then get blown to smithereens moments later at the slightest perception of provocation. Then these yahoos look deservingly stupid when someone behind closed doors genuinely does some necessary homework about who did what, when, where & why. In the meantime...of course, everyone -- from the media to their own cousin-teabagging family members --- begin saturating the airwaves with wailling soundbites about how these drooling s**theads were always meant for better things as though they were just seconds from becoming eight-digit earning CEO's of Microsoft / Apple when the mouth-breathing, knuckle walking, banjo-pickers stopped along a patrol somewhere & unwittingly urinated on a cleverly buried I.E.D.

 

[trekkerguy]

I am a citizen of the little known blue marble known as "Earth".

I shall endeavour to find my place among the stars under the banner of Humanity and Personal Integrity.

 

[Hermiod]

I'm proud of being British, but I can see our flaws. My pride in my country makes me want to fix what's broken about it.

 

[Caliburn24]

I'm posting from FOB Diamondback/Marez in the middle of Mosul, Iraq, where I work as a cavalry scout for the US Army. I would say I am most definitely a patriot and a nationalist. However the term nationalist gets a bad rap. Just because I am working to further the interests of the United States does not mean I and others cannot work to further the interests of other countries and third country nationals. We're working here to shore up the Iraqi government and security forces so that in the future villages are not wiped out by Al Qaeda in Iraq, or weddings destroyed by suicide bombers. Both of which I have seen in my time here.

Our methods are not perfect, our members make mistakes, but we're on the right side. Nationalistic? Sure I am.

 

[Sci]

Patriot? Totally. Nationalist? Not at all.

This.

This, too.

Patriotism and nationalism are not the same things at all.

Patriotism is a sentiment. It's simply love of country. You can love your country for the wrong reasons--but you can also love it for the right reasons--like how well it secures the rights and freedoms of its citizens. I love my own country for precisely that reason.

Nationalism, by contrast, is an ideology. It's the belief that human beings can be divided into 'nations'; that each 'nation' has a rightful territory of its own; and that political boundaries should coincide with national boundaries.

It's an insidious, unworkable doctrine which has caused widespread misery, death, and destruction. As I always say: nations exist only in the imaginations of nationalists, just as races exist only in the imaginations of racists.

Well, sort of. Obviously there's no biological difference that's particularly relevant between the so-called "races."

But there are different nations in the sense that there are different cultures and language groups. The Germans do not have the same culture as the French do not have the same culture as the Irish do not have the same culture as the Italians.

I don't think there's anything intrinsically wrong with the idea of national self-determination -- that is to say, the idea that the nations of the world are real insofar as there are groups of people with different languages and cultures, and that those groups have the right to form sovereign nation-states (eg the French Republic) or to join with other nations to form sovereign multinational states (eg the United States) as they so choose, and that all nations should respect one-another's equal right to autonomy and self-determination.

What is wrong, I think, is when someone takes that definition of nationalism -- national self-determination -- and transforms it into a belief in the inherent superiority of one's own nation and of the right of one's own nation to dominate, subjugate, or exterminate other nations. What is also wrong is when one takes the essential idea of national self-determination and uses it as an excuse to engage in discrimination, legal or otherwise, against members of a different nation (nation in the sense of culture) that may reside within a nation-state's borders. The French nation has a right to establish a French state, but the French Republic has an obligation to treat non-French within its borders equally -- with the same rights to citizenship, civil rights, civil liberties, and basic human decency and treatment as any Frenchman.

In other words, I believe in national self-determination. I do not believe in national discrimination.

Having said all this, I also think that if the nations of the world are serious about wanting peace, then they will gradually learn to forge amongst themselves a unified human identity -- a new nationalism for a new nation: Humanity as a single nation, a single overriding cultural grouping to which all over groupings will be seen to belong, as equals and partners, not as rivals for power.

Anyway, I suppose in one respect I'm a nationalist insofar as I believe in national self-determination, but I'm not a nationalist insofar as I don't believe in the superiority of any nation over any other nation, nor in the right of nations to dominate or discriminate.

All that I think of as being quite separate from the question of patriotism, which I see as love of one's state. But I think being a patriot means recognizing when your state is doing something wrong.

It's like family. You love them, but part of loving them in a mature, adult way is recognizing when they're doing something wrong and need someone to tell them to stop.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I'm posting from FOB Diamondback/Marez in the middle of Mosul, Iraq, where I work as a cavalry scout for the US Army. I would say I am most definitely a patriot and a nationalist. However the term nationalist gets a bad rap. Just because I am working to further the interests of the United States does not mean I and others cannot work to further the interests of other countries and third country nationals. We're working here to shore up the Iraqi government and security forces so that in the future villages are not wiped out by Al Qaeda in Iraq, or weddings destroyed by suicide bombers. Both of which I have seen in my time here.

Our methods are not perfect, our members make mistakes, but we're on the right side. Nationalistic? Sure I am.

Let me just say this: THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE, caliburn.

 

[archeryguy1701]

I'll support the US. I'll be proud when we've done something to be proud of. I'll even go fight for the US if the need arises. However, I think all the pledging and the singing and the "My country is better than yours!!" crap and all of that is just a mite silly.

Feel free to berate me know.

 

[Apogeal Alpha01]

I'm a patriot. I love my country. I'm a nationalist. I'm concerned about my country's wellbeing first and foremost, though not to the exclusion of other's.

 

[iguana_tonante]

I'm a nationalistic erotic aesthete. I think my country is beautifully fucked up.

Jokes aside, I'm proud of my country in the same sense that I'm proud of being me, personal fuck-ups nonetheless. It's part of my identity. I'm elated at our good deeds, and ashamed of our wrongdoings.

I consider my national identity just another step in my ascending group identity: myself, my family, my borough, my city, my province, my region, my nation, my continent, my world (my stellar system and my galaxy optional). I don't see why the "nation" step should get more importance than the others.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Neither one. I'm actively looking into leaving the country and giving up my citizenship, as far as nationalism...well I don't think there's enough room on the board's server for me to probably LOL at the concept.

At least you are actually following through on your convictions. That is more than I can say for most of the people who complain that their country is so inimical to their principles that they're embarrassed to live there, and yet continue to reap in its benefits. My attitude is if you're THAT opposed, you need to do some serious thinking about where your tax dollars are going.


Personally...I am very deeply loyal to my country. We are not perfect, but I believe that my home and the people in it are worth fighting for and I don't care for it at all when it's suggested that because of those mistakes, I should despise my own nation. I may be a throwback in this regard, but I believe I have three duties to uphold in life: God, family, and country, in that order. Notice that "self"--if it were to be on that list--would come after those three. Those are the three things I believe it is my duty to give sacrificially to...a dying phenomenon these days, and much to our detriment.

Nothing burns me more than to see the absolute inability our people (and by reflection our government) now show to lay aside personal and political self-interest and work together for a solution. I see political parties so determined to block each other's agendas--not for the sake of principles but merely for the sake of making the other look bad, and I find that quite disturbing. So too is the degree of personal hatred, some of which I see exemplified right here in this thread--the fact that it has become so acceptable to utterly vilify one's ideological opponents is disgusting in my view.

I believe in a balance between rights and responsibilities. We have rights, yes...but we do not have and should not have absolute rights. Frankly, I do not believe we are capable of handling that; human nature has never proven itself to be up to the challenge, and given that, we do need laws and a government. With each right comes a responsibility to wield it properly, and because we CAN do certain things does not mean we should do it.


I expect I'll be getting smart-aleck cracks about my avatar in light of my comments. Understand that I don't believe in taking any of this to extremes and I believe that's the role public debate serves--to help us maintain our balance. I also do not believe that as an American I am inherently superior. What I am is very fortunate and grateful, and I don't believe in forgetting gratitude.

 

[wonderstoat]

I live in Northern Ireland, so I can see the waste that such a thing produces. When your basic needs aren't met, nationalism does nothing to gain them.

Seconded

 

[SeerSGB]

Neither one. I'm actively looking into leaving the country and giving up my citizenship, as far as nationalism...well I don't think there's enough room on the board's server for me to probably LOL at the concept.

At least you are actually following through on your convictions. That is more than I can say for most of the people who complain that their country is so inimical to their principles that they're embarrassed to live there, and yet continue to reap in its benefits. My attitude is if you're THAT opposed, you need to do some serious thinking about where your tax dollars are going.

The only thing that can screw the pooch is my medical (potential problems they might not waiver off on) and finances (not having enough for various bonds and proof of self support). Should either case go against me...oh well, ye olde passport will get a workout as I do "turn around the flagpole". And even then there's appeals and various other methods I can try. At any rate, yes the ultimate goal is for me to leave the US and give up my citizenship.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I don't get how medical issues would affect it? Is it that Canada's national health care system is balking?

 

[SeerSGB]

I don't get how medical issues would affect it? Is it that Canada's national health care system is balking?

Canadian immigration law denies residence, citizen, or long-term visas to any person or persons that may become a medical burden on the national healthcare system. There's exceptions, to be sure, but the process is expensive takes a lot of legal and medical wrangling-- basically doctors and various others certifying that I am who say I am and that in spite of my medical issues that I'm in good enough health as not to be a burden. A ton of money for self-support, and may or may not require that I give up my rights to national healthcare and/or require that I carry a private policy instead or in conjunction with the national coverage. Plus immigration fees.

Then, if denied, there's the various appeal processes, and even more scratch spent.

 

[Goliath]

But there are different nations in the sense that there are different cultures and language groups. The Germans do not have the same culture as the French do not have the same culture as the Irish do not have the same culture as the Italians.

I just can't agree with this. As far as I can see, nations are simply imagined communities, as Benedict Anderson argued. A nation may look real from a distance, but when examined closely, it dissolves into unrelated individuals--like the coloured dots in a pointillist painting. The differences between members of the same 'nation' are always just as real, just as significant, as the differences between the members of different 'nations'.

You say, "the Germans do not have the same culture as the French". But, which Germans? Which French? Are Alsatians French? Are Bretons? What do they have in common, exactly, with the "French" French, besides the fact that they live in the same country?

Similarly: are people who speak Low Rhenish German? Are Austrians? Austria was only excluded from Germany for power-political reasons during the Wars of German Unification. And what about people of Turkish ethnicity living in Germany? Are they German? Turkish? Both? Neither?

Are Americans a nation? What characteristics would you use to answer that question? What, if anything, do all Americans have in common besides US citizenship?

A shared language? Habla español?

A shared history? Ask a Southerner: was the US Civil War justified? Was it about slavery?

A shared culture? Shared values? Should abortion be legal, or not?

None of these categories would encompass every American citizen. One of my colleagues, who was from Rhode Island, once told me that she felt more at home in southern Ontario than she did in many parts of the United States.

In my opinion, nationalism is a bad idea whose time has long since passed. The idea of "national self-determination" has led time and time again to irredentism, war, forced assimilation, mass expulsions, ethnic cleansing, and in a few extreme cases, genocide. No matter where you draw the boundaries of the nation-state, someone is going to be on the wrong side of the border--and someone is going to try to force reality to conform to their nationalistic fantasy.

 

[Captain X]

Now let's all hold hands and sing Kumbaya...

 

[ShamelessMcBundy]

Ooh, can we roast marshmallows?

 

[Count Zero]

No, I would not describe myself as either a nationalist or a patriot. While I certainly feel a sentimental attachment to my country and its culture I'm not proud of it, since it is pure chance where we're born.