Curious - what are the distinctions between England, Great Britain, UK

[Cicero]

Re: Curious - what are the distinctions between England, Great Britain

We have a current US president who called Greeks "Grecians" when he first assumed office, so shows you how much the average American -- let alone our highest ranking public official -- who has gone though its public school system knows.

The Greeks are Grecians. From the American Heritage Dictonary of the English Language:

Grecian
adj. Greek.
n. A native or inhabitant of Greece.
[From Latin Graecia, Greece, from Graecus, Greek. See Greek.]
​

The plural form of this is Grecians.

 

[captcalhoun]

Re: Curious - what are the distinctions between England, Great Britain

what's a Grecian Urn?

About ten drachmas an hour!

 

[Omnius]

Re: Curious - what are the distinctions between England, Great Britain

What's always puzzled me is why England, Scotland and Wales participate as seperate teams in the European/World Football Championships, whereas they participate as one nation (the UK) for the Olympics?

 

[Hermiod]

Re: Curious - what are the distinctions between England, Great Britain

^The sport's world governing body, FIFA, is not an organisation made up of nations, it is made up of national Football associations. The FA (since the English FA was the first such association, they are correctly known as just "The FA", not the "English FA") and their Scottish, Irish and Welsh equivalents are seperate organisations.

It is partly a matter of national pride (Scotland, especially, would not want to give up its independence) and partly a matter of money. Competing as Great Britain would endanger the Champions League and UEFA Cup places given to the Scottish League.

On the other hand, in most other sports there has not been this historical seperation of nations.

The major exception to that is Cricket where the sport just wasn't popular enough in Scotland, so England always played as England. Strictly speaking, Welsh players often play in the English national team in Cricket since one of the County sides, Glamorgan, is in Wales.

 

[Goliath]

Re: Curious - what are the distinctions between England, Great Britain

A law passed in the early 1900s means that the Lords basically can't stop the Commons from passing any bill they want into law (though they can delay it a bit for debate). By convention, a Prime Minister cannot be from the Lords, only the Commons.

Really?

Yep.

That's interesting, as here in Canada, a law can't pass unless it's approved by both the Commons and the Senate.

Well, the Parliament Act 1911 was passed back when the House of Lords still consisted of hereditary Peers rather than appointed folk.

What's more, by precipitating the Ulster Crisis of 1912-14, the Parliament Act, 1911 became one of the underlying causes of the Irish Revolution.

The Edwardian period is one of the most fascinating in modern British history.

 

[Deckerd]

Re: Curious - what are the distinctions between England, Great Britain

^The sport's world governing body, FIFA, is not an organisation made up of nations, it is made up of national Football associations. The FA (since the English FA was the first such association, they are correctly known as just "The FA", not the "English FA") and their Scottish, Irish and Welsh equivalents are seperate organisations.

It is partly a matter of national pride (Scotland, especially, would not want to give up its independence) and partly a matter of money. Competing as Great Britain would endanger the Champions League and UEFA Cup places given to the Scottish League.

On the other hand, in most other sports there has not been this historical seperation of nations.

The major exception to that is Cricket where the sport just wasn't popular enough in Scotland, so England always played as England. Strictly speaking, Welsh players often play in the English national team in Cricket since one of the County sides, Glamorgan, is in Wales.

There's a lot of rhubarbing going on just now about the 2012 Olympics and specifically a GB footie team. The SNP are gnashing their teeth and crying 'foul!' at the very idea. The rest of Scotland doesn't care since a Team GB would be just as shit as its constituent countries.

 

[Roger Wilco]

Re: Curious - what are the distinctions between England, Great Britain

What's always puzzled me is why England, Scotland and Wales participate as seperate teams in the European/World Football Championships, whereas they participate as one nation (the UK) for the Olympics?

History.
Football was invented on the British Isles (England&Scotland specifically), so the first "international" games were played between them too - since the sport was not known yet anywhere else.
The English FA was founded in 1863, Scotland 1873, Wales 1876, Northern Ireland 1880; only a handful of continental European national football teams were founded before 1900 and FIFA wasn't founded until 1904 (and wasn't powerful until many years later).
Club-based football had earlier success though.

So the peculiarity of the individual British national teams in football was just "grandfathered" in I guess - it's always been that way, so it stays.
Other regional football federations would love to have their own international teams too - specifically Catalonia, the Basque Country and Gibraltar, but FIFA and UEFA are strongly opposed to that.
[Little sidenote of history - it's not completely unprecedented, Hungary and Austria (including many regions that aren't "Austria" now, especially today's Czech Republic and Slovakia) had individual national football teams too before the end of WWI and the dissolution of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. They also played the the first official international match between two non-British European countries against each other.]

 

[Goliath]

Re: Curious - what are the distinctions between England, Great Britain

We have a current US president who called Greeks "Grecians" when he first assumed office, so shows you how much the average American -- let alone our highest ranking public official -- who has gone though its public school system knows.

The Greeks are Grecians. From the American Heritage Dictonary of the English Language:

Grecian
adj. Greek.
n. A native or inhabitant of Greece.
[From Latin Graecia, Greece, from Graecus, Greek. See Greek.]
​

The plural form of this is Grecians.

The noun "Grecian" is archaic. Nobody uses it anymore. Using "Grecians" instead of "Greeks" is equivalent to using "Scotch" instead of "Scottish".

What's more, citing a dictionary to "prove" that that the President's gaffe was somehow not incorrect reflects a false theory of language.

Usages are not correct because they're cited in the dictionary. They're cited in the dictionary because they're correct.

In this case, the dictionary needs updating. I note that the American Heritage Dictionary also defines "Scotch" as "the people of Scotland," even though, once again, nobody uses it that way anymore.

 

[Hermiod]

Re: Curious - what are the distinctions between England, Great Britain

There's a lot of rhubarbing going on just now about the 2012 Olympics and specifically a GB footie team. The SNP are gnashing their teeth and crying 'foul!' at the very idea. The rest of Scotland doesn't care since a Team GB would be just as shit as its constituent countries.

The issue is with people like FIFA Vice President Jack Warner who think the British FAs have too much power, and are looking for excuses to trim that power.

Scottish clubs stand to lose a lot if they have to give up their Champions League and UEFA Cup places.

In the case of the Olympics, FIFA has guaranteed that a one-off 2012 Great Britain team would be welcomed and would not affect the independent status of the British FAs. Despite this Scotland are holding out.

Roger Wilco is correct in that the seperation of the British nations was Grandfathered in. It's the way it always has been and nobody wants to change it except a few grumpy England-haters in the Trinidad and Tobagan FA.

 

[Roger Wilco]

Re: Curious - what are the distinctions between England, Great Britain

Finally, why is the Union Jack (Great Britain) promoted more as the flag of England internationally than the official flag of England (a centered red cross over a white background)?

It's not, that's a (common) misconception.
But I think (as a non-British, so take it with a grain of salt ), that this faulty impression might be due to England being (and always have been) the dominant part of the United Kingdom. So the Welsh and Scottish just use just use their own flags if they want to make a point of their regional affiliation - the English are assumed to be English anyway regardless.

 

[Hermiod]

Re: Curious - what are the distinctions between England, Great Britain

^That's a mistake the Stargate Atlantis' costume department made with Dr. Beckett by putting the Saltire on his sleeve instead of the Union Jack as it should have been.

 

[Deckerd]

Re: Curious - what are the distinctions between England, Great Britain

Am I correct in thinking that actor wasn't Scottish?

 

[Hermiod]

Re: Curious - what are the distinctions between England, Great Britain

Am I correct in thinking that actor wasn't Scottish?

Yes and no. Paul McGillion was born in Paisley, lived there until he was two, moved to Canada and lived there until he was 11 and then moved back to Scotland for three years before returning to Canada.

His accent in the show is not real.

 

[Skywalker]

Re: Curious - what are the distinctions between England, Great Britain

^That's a mistake the Stargate Atlantis' costume department made with Dr. Beckett by putting the Saltire on his sleeve instead of the Union Jack as it should have been.

Maybe they just wanted to make it clear that he was Scottish. I suppose there are some people out there who would have seen the Union Jack and thought he was English instead. ::

 

[Deckerd]

Re: Curious - what are the distinctions between England, Great Britain

His accent in the show is not real.

I would never have guessed

 

[Hermiod]

Re: Curious - what are the distinctions between England, Great Britain

Maybe they just wanted to make it clear that he was Scottish. I suppose there are some people out there who would have seen the Union Jack and thought he was English instead. ::

Stargate would not have made that kind of mistake with American characters. It is easy to tell Beckett is Scottish by his accent.

It's not like Star Trek had to put a hammer and sickle on Chekov's uniform.

I would never have guessed

You wouldn't believe how many Stargate fans I've encountered who were surprised when he talks with his real voice.

 

[Skywalker]

Re: Curious - what are the distinctions between England, Great Britain

Maybe they just wanted to make it clear that he was Scottish. I suppose there are some people out there who would have seen the Union Jack and thought he was English instead. ::

Stargate would not have made that kind of mistake with American characters. It is easy to tell Beckett is Scottish by his accent.

You overestimate the intelligence of my fellow Americans, my good man!

It's not like Star Trek had to put a hammer and sickle on Chekov's uniform.

That would have been awesome.

 

[Hermiod]

Re: Curious - what are the distinctions between England, Great Britain

You overestimate the intelligence of my fellow Americans, my good man!

Well, on top of that, he did blather on all the time about Scotland. Either that or his wee turtles or his dear old mother.

Perhaps they could have gone the whole hog and put the old Czechoslovakian flag on Zelenka's arm. (Let's see if anyone gets this one )

 

[Deckerd]

Re: Curious - what are the distinctions between England, Great Britain

Stargate would not have made that kind of mistake with American characters. It is easy to tell Beckett is Scottish by his accent.

It's not like Star Trek had to put a hammer and sickle on Chekov's uniform.

Except that the Hammer & Sickle was in use for less than a century, while the St Andrews Cross (Saltire) is reputed to be one of the oldest national flags in existence.

 

[ITL]

Re: Curious - what are the distinctions between England, Great Britain

I note that the American Heritage Dictionary also defines "Scotch" as "the people of Scotland," even though, once again, nobody uses it that way anymore.

Oh, they love being called Scotch! A Scotch-Person giving you a roasting for calling them Scotch is just their way of saying they love you. It's all rather sweet, really.

Right, Deckerd?