Curious - what are the distinctions between England, Great Britain, UK

[Sci]

Re: Curious - what are the distinctions between England, Great Britain

the thing that always irritates me is when Americans (and some other foreigners) always assume that English people all sound like the Queen or Dick Van bloody Dyke. like England's accents consist of RP and Cockernee and nothing else.

thank Christ for British films like Hot Fuzz, Shaun of the Dead and The Full Monty crossing the Atlantic (and what'sername in Frasier) and showing there's more than 2 English accents.

(mine is some what similar to Danny Butterman's in Hot Fuzz for the record. and despite what my high school classmates would have you believe, nowhere near as bad as the farmer's)

To be fair, there are a lot of Brits who seem to assume that all Americans either sound like they're from the Midwest, the South, or New York.

 

[captcalhoun]

Re: Curious - what are the distinctions between England, Great Britain

no, we also know there's Valley Girls and Surfer Dudes from California, who're like, totally awesome, dude. Cowabunga!

 

[Goliath]

Re: Curious - what are the distinctions between England, Great Britain

The situations are different.

I'm not convinced of that. My point was simply that both usages are now archaic: the fact that one is considered insulting in some circles, while the other is not, is really beside that point. I think that the very limited currency of "Scotch" among Americans that you mention really supports my case, rather than undermining it.

I'm also not convinced that "Grecian" remains current among those with a classical education. I've never heard it used, for example, by any of my colleagues in the fields of Classics or ancient history. What's more, I just conducted an electronic search of the first volume of the Cambridge Ancient History (available online from archives.org) and found no examples of the word "Grecian" at all, which indicates pretty clearly that it had passed out of even scholarly usage by the 1920s.

Indeed, the only place I can ever recall encountering this word is in the title of Keats' poem "Ode on a Grecian Urn," and in the brand name "Grecian Formula". I will leave it up to our readers to decide which was the most likely inspiration for President Bush's usage of the term.

 

[captcalhoun]

Re: Curious - what are the distinctions between England, Great Britain

in Britain 'Grecian' is probably best known for being Grecian 2000, a hair care product...

and Scotch is usually (to me) used either for the drink or for snarky remarks about idiot Americans referring to 'Scotchland'. (where they play Soccerball.)

 

[Good Will Riker]

Re: Curious - what are the distinctions between England, Great Britain

Except that the Hammer & Sickle was in use for less than a century, while the St Andrews Cross (Saltire) is reputed to be one of the oldest national flags in existence.

I was kidding, but in this case, the United Kingdom is a member of Stargate's fictional International Oversight Advisory, not Scotland on its own - along with other nations such as Canada, China, France, Russia, Germany and the Czech Republic. The IOA is the organisation that is in overall charge of the Atlantis Expedition in the show.

The UK provided soliders as well and a number of them have been seen wearing the Union Jack on their sleeves.

The fact of the matter is, most people get their first glimpse of the United Kingdom and Ireland through films and not through academic textbooks.

Which is why, because of the world mass media, the most famous figure outside of the United Kingdom besides Queen Elizabeth II in our modern times is the fictional character of EON's James Bond from 1962's Dr. No - 2008's Quantum of Solace. And, because Bond is presented as an Englishman who always displays the Union Jack on film, most people outside of the UK presumes that the Union Jack is the English flag and that "Great Britain" is synonymous with the country of "England only."

Seriously, in every single film that is shown internationally, the English are the defacto representatives of "Great Britain" and present themselves with the Union Jack, not the Welsh and the Scottish.

I would like to know by your above comments that when representing themselves internationally, do the English, Scottish, and Welsh prefer to use the Union Jack exclusively to denote their unity, or do they prefer to use their own individual country's flags to represent themselves internationally?

Because the Union Jack has been used so exclusively in international mass media and the fact that the English overwhelmingly embrace it as their flag internationally way moreso than the Scottish and the Welsh do, you can realize why this perception exists in the public consciousness of the world mass media.

 

[jamestyler]

Re: Curious - what are the distinctions between England, Great Britain

I would like to know by your above comments that when presenting themselves internationally, do the English, Scottish, and Wales prefer to use the Union Jack exclusively to denote their unity, or do they prefer to use their own individual countries to represent themselves internationally?

From my personal view the only time the general population give a rats hat about flying the flag is in football season... and the Union flag is never seen.

 

[Good Will Riker]

Re: Curious - what are the distinctions between England, Great Britain

^^^

I mean, when the English want to present themselves as "the face of England" throughout the world (internationally to other nations like USA, South Korea, Brazil, Kenya, France, etc.) do they prefer to use their English flag or the Union Jack of Great Britain?

When the Scottish want to present themselves as "the face of Scotland" throughout the world (internationally to other nations like USA, South Korea, Brazil, Kenya, France, etc.) do they prefer to use their Scottish flag or the Union Jack of Great Britain?

When the Welsh want to present themselves as "the face of Wales" throughout the world (internationally to other nations like USA, South Korea, Brazil, Kenya, France, etc.) do they prefer to use their Welsh flag or the Union Jack of Great Britain?

And, why is England "the international face of Great Britain" over that of Scotland and Wales throughout the rest of the world?

 

[Miss Chicken]

Re: Curious - what are the distinctions between England, Great Britain

And, because Bond is presented as an Englishman who always displays the Union Jack on film, most people outside of the UK presumes that the Union Jack is the English flag and that "Great Britain" is synonymous with the country of "England only

The average Australian knows the difference between England and Great Britain and would only apply the term 'pom' to an Englishman not a Scot. We don't play Great Britain in the cricket only the English. In the Commonwealth Games Wales, England, Scotland and Northern Ireland participate as individual countries and they fly their own flags.

When I was in school we learnt the history of the Union Jack though I doubt children in Australia are taught that nowadays.

 

[Good Will Riker]

Re: Curious - what are the distinctions between England, Great Britain

And, because Bond is presented as an Englishman who always displays the Union Jack on film, most people outside of the UK presumes that the Union Jack is the English flag and that "Great Britain" is synonymous with the country of "England only

The average Australian knows the difference between England and Great Britain and would only apply the term 'pom' to an Englishman not a Scot. We don't play Great Britain in the cricket only the English. In the Commonwealth Games Wales, England, Scotland and Northern Ireland participate as individual countries and they fly their own flags.

I did not mean to denigrate Australia or any of the other Commonwealth nations.

I will have to go with what I know from where I am from:

You ask an average American the difference between England, Great Britain, the United Kingdom, and the Union Jack, and most would consider all 4 to be almost exclusively synonymous with "England," "English," and "Englishman" due to that overwhelming popular perception in American mass media.

 

[Miss Chicken]

Re: Curious - what are the distinctions between England, Great Britain

And, because Bond is presented as an Englishman who always displays the Union Jack on film, most people outside of the UK presumes that the Union Jack is the English flag and that "Great Britain" is synonymous with the country of "England only

The average Australian knows the difference between England and Great Britain and would only apply the term 'pom' to an Englishman not a Scot. We don't play Great Britain in the cricket only the English. In the Commonwealth Games Wales, England, Scotland and Northern Ireland participate as individual countries and they fly their own flags.

I did not mean to denigrate Australia or any of the other Commonwealth nations.

I will go with what I know from where I am from:

You ask an average American the difference between England, Great Britain, the United Kingdom, and the Union Jack, and most would consider all 4 to be almost exclusively synonymous with "England," "English," and "Englishman" due to the perception in American mass media.

The average American, yes, but not neccessarily "most people outside of the UK " as you first stated especially not most people belonging to the Commonwealth of Nations.

 

[Good Will Riker]

Re: Curious - what are the distinctions between England, Great Britain

The average Australian knows the difference between England and Great Britain and would only apply the term 'pom' to an Englishman not a Scot. We don't play Great Britain in the cricket only the English. In the Commonwealth Games Wales, England, Scotland and Northern Ireland participate as individual countries and they fly their own flags.

I did not mean to denigrate Australia or any of the other Commonwealth nations.

I will go with what I know from where I am from:

You ask an average American the difference between England, Great Britain, the United Kingdom, and the Union Jack, and most would consider all 4 to be almost exclusively synonymous with "England," "English," and "Englishman" due to the perception in American mass media.

The average American, yes, but not neccessarily "most people outside of the UK " as you first stated especially not most people belonging to the Commonwealth of Nations.

Of course not.

I did not mean any offense.

I was referring to the average "non-United Kingdom citizens," "non-Irishmen," and "non-Commonwealth nation citizens" because they did not grow up with this knowledge in their school systems.

If citizens throughout South America, European Union, Asia, and Mexico (But, I doubt it.) are well aware of this knowledge, then it is most Americans who are not aware of these distinctions due to the exclusion of this information throughout the American education system.

 

[Sci]

Re: Curious - what are the distinctions between England, Great Britain

I did not mean to denigrate Australia or any of the other Commonwealth nations.

I will go with what I know from where I am from:

You ask an average American the difference between England, Great Britain, the United Kingdom, and the Union Jack, and most would consider all 4 to be almost exclusively synonymous with "England," "English," and "Englishman" due to the perception in American mass media.

The average American, yes, but not neccessarily "most people outside of the UK " as you first stated especially not most people belonging to the Commonwealth of Nations.

Of course not.

I did not mean any offense.

I was referring to the average "non-United Kingdom citizens," "non-Irishmen," and "non-Commonwealth nation citizens" because they did not grow up with this knowledge in their school systems.

If citizens throughout South America, European Union, Asia, and Mexico (But, I doubt it.) are well aware of this knowledge, then it is most Americans who are not aware of these distinctions due to the exclusion of this information throughout the American education system.

I think the problem is less the American education system -- I was given textbooks that made the distinction between England and Britain, for instance -- than with American pop culture. They generally tend to use "England" because of English dominance of the UK and because America's Thirteen Colonies began as English colonies before becoming British colonies. So our "cultural memory," so to speak, is of England, since we came over before England and Scotland unified.

Anyway, I do know plenty of Americans who are aware that Scotland and England are both part of the UK, same with the Welsh. I mean, hell, even James Bond had a Scottish accent back in the day.

 

[Good Will Riker]

Re: Curious - what are the distinctions between England, Great Britain

^^^^

So, in otherwords, when the American colonists of the 13 colonies were shouting "The British are coming! The British are coming!" over the hills and on the shores, the American colonists were referring to the English only.

 

[Sci]

Re: Curious - what are the distinctions between England, Great Britain

^^^^

So, in otherwords, when the American colonists of the 13 colonies were shouting "The British are coming! The British are coming!" over the hills and on the shores, the American colonists were referring to the English only.

I think it's fair to say that the American colonists didn't always make a distinction, yeah, especially since the most powerful Britons were invariably English at the time. (Though they did make the distinct as in, say, the Declaration of Independence, which refers to the King of Great Britain rather than the King of England and Scotland.)

Interesting fact: The current Prime Minister of the United Kingdom is Scottish.

 

[The Squire of Gothos]

Re: Curious - what are the distinctions between England, Great Britain

And, why is England "the international face of Great Britain" over that of Scotland and Wales throughout the rest of the world?

In what way do you mean? Why is it we see Parliament sitting in London and not Edinburgh, why does the Queen speak with an English accent and not Welsh for example?

You'd really have to dig deep into British history, looking at all the strands coming together to form the modern UK. Not just the nice summaries of the political history upthread, but all the comings and goings of people and ideas through the years. England is a bigger place by land mass, has good land for farming, is closer to the Continent for the exchange of ideas, anything and everything affects the modern world as we know it.

As an aside, Wikipedia has a nice diagram breaking down the British Isles into its contingent entities.

 

[Cicero]

Re: Curious - what are the distinctions between England, Great Britain

And, why is England "the international face of Great Britain" over that of Scotland and Wales throughout the rest of the world?

In what way do you mean? Why is it we see Parliament sitting in London and not Edinburgh, why does the Queen speak with an English accent and not Welsh for example?

While I agree with your point generally, these same questions applied to the United States, our capital, and our next leader, would lead one to imagine that the District of Columbia and Illinois (or Chicago, if you prefer) were the international faces of the United States, whereas we're more likely to be known for New York, California, and perhaps Texas - and none of these places to the extent that the United States is thought of synonymously with them rather than with its whole.

 

[Cicero]

Re: Curious - what are the distinctions between England, Great Britain

The situations are different.

I'm not convinced of that. My point was simply that both usages are now archaic: the fact that one is considered insulting in some circles, while the other is not, is really beside that point. I think that the very limited currency of "Scotch" among Americans that you mention really supports my case, rather than undermining it.

My argument for difference was based in the histories of the words, one being a Latin word which eventually passed into English and has been used in one language or the other for about 2,000 years, and the other an English contraction of the proper term for the people of Scotland which is both a diminutive form of the original rather than a direct alternative, and is not supported by a long history of extensive use.

I mentioned Scottish affront at being called Scotch (this was not always the case, which is why the term endures among persons of Scottish ancestry in the United States) mostly to underline the extent to which the Hellenes are indifferent to which of the terms "Greek" or "Grecian" is used.

I'm also not convinced that "Grecian" remains current among those with a classical education. I've never heard it used, for example, by any of my colleagues in the fields of Classics or ancient history. What's more, I just conducted an electronic search of the first volume of the Cambridge Ancient History (available online from archives.org) and found no examples of the word "Grecian" at all, which indicates pretty clearly that it had passed out of even scholarly usage by the 1920s.

It appears to have been the primary educated term here until at least the early 1910s, from what I can find. I don't deny that its passing out of use, but it is still a current term. All of my classics professors at the University of Chicago preferred it to "Greek."

 

[Captain Intrepid]

Re: Curious - what are the distinctions between England, Great Britain

^^^^

So, in otherwords, when the American colonists of the 13 colonies were shouting "The British are coming! The British are coming!" over the hills and on the shores, the American colonists were referring to the English only.

Well, a great deal of the colonists didn't give a shit.

 

[wonderstoat]

Re: Curious - what are the distinctions between England, Great Britain

^^^^

So, in otherwords, when the American colonists of the 13 colonies were shouting "The British are coming! The British are coming!" over the hills and on the shores, the American colonists were referring to the English only.

Well, a great deal of the colonists didn't give a shit.

I'd say the 20% of colonists who remained loyal to the crown did?

 

[Skywalker]

Re: Curious - what are the distinctions between England, Great Britain

Wouldn't 80% be considered 'a great deal'?