Fearful Symmetry Review Thread (spoilers)

[Defcon]

Er - you have read Book 2 of Fearful Symmetry?

Er - you have read Andrew's first sentence?

Yes, but there were loads of things before then - as Marco says above

As Rowan Sjet said that has nothing to do with the fact that you were ignoring one crucial sentence from Andrew's post when answering. Basically you were only refering to FS, when he specifically was asking about horrendous things we knew about before FS.

The problem I had with Dukat in FS was that it just doesn't fit his character in my opinion and that has nothing to do with "sympathy". I'll just quote from my review:

I think that while the "Illiana-as-Kira held captive by Dukat as his sex doll" plot adds quite a bit to her character, on the other hand it’s taking away too much from the character of Dukat, in my opinion. Sure, he is a megalomaniac, sick, cold-hearted bastard who has conceivably raped many women, but I don’t think he is the kind of man who would have fun raping a drugged woman. As I see it, for him the "fun" lies in the act of breaking people, but you can’t do that when your victim isn’t fully aware of her surroundings. But even if you don’t take the drugging into account, before she got her fighting spirit back he had basically broken her already during the time of her captivity, to the point where she doesn’t really care anymore. I think by this point at the latest, he would have lost interest, no matter how fixated he might be on Kira. So having him act like that kind of ruined one of the few truly interesting villains of Star Trek a bit for me.

 

[PaulSimpson]

Er - you have read Andrew's first sentence?

Yes, but there were loads of things before then - as Marco says above

As Rowan Sjet said that has nothing to do with the fact that you were ignoring one crucial sentence from Andrew's post when answering. Basically you were only refering to FS, when he specifically was asking about horrendous things we knew about before FS.

My error - oops!

 

[Sean Aaron]

Those were the first that came to mind. There are probably others.

The episode where he and Sisko are crashed on that asteroid when he was being shipped off to a Federation prison and starts having delusions he's portrayed as having had the potential to have committed genocide -- after that chilling portrayal there is nothing I wouldn't believe him capable of.

 

[Marco Palmieri]

I think the number of people who still hold out that Dukat "wasn't that bad" are a testament to what a charismatic and effective performer Marc Alaimo was. You could tell Dukat believed it, and were seduced into believing it yourself.

I agree with this to a point. Certainly Alaimo did a wonderful job with Dukat. But I also think much of the disagreement surrounding the character stems in part from the actor's desire to seize opportunities that allowed him to portray Dukat as a less dastardly figure...resulting in the overcompensation on the part of the writers that Christopher describes.

The episode where he and Sisko are crashed on that asteroid when he was being shipped off to a Federation prison and starts having delusions he's portrayed as having had the potential to have committed genocide -- after that chilling portrayal there is nothing I wouldn't believe him capable of.

Exactly. Taken as a whole across all seven seasons of Deep Space Nine, Dukat's characterization is clearly that of a man who, in his most seemingly benign and sympathetic moments, was lying to everyone around him, including himself. Every decision he made was ultimately self-serving; he always masked his real agenda until he felt a) that he was unassailable, or b) that he had nothing left to lose; he built friendships and alliances when it served his purposes, and he betrayed them in the same context; he was willing to ruin families (contrary to what we are told is the highest Cardassian value) and use children as long-term weapons against their parents; he endorsed and practiced a policy of subjugating women for sexual purposes; and he always tried to rationalize every atrocity he committed.

It's also a huge and often-repeated mistake, I think, to separate Dukat's actions before his exposure to the Pah-wraiths from those he took after, for a very good reason: Keiko O'Brien and Jake Sisko were similarly used as wraith-vessels ("The Assignment" and "The Reckoning," respectively), and neither of them were forever altered by the experience. Dukat's undisguised malice during those last two seasons was his own. The wraiths were simply a means to an end.

 

[captcalhoun]

not only that, Dukat actively sought out the pah-wraiths and wanted their aid.

not the sign of a balanced mind...

 

[Darth_Pazuzu]

It's also a huge and often-repeated mistake, I think, to separate Dukat's actions before his exposure to the Pah-wraiths from those he took after, for a very good reason: Keiko O'Brien and Jake Sisko were similarly used as wraith-vessels ("The Assignment" and "The Reckoning," respectively), and neither of them were forever altered by the experience. Dukat's undisguised malice during those last two seasons was his own. The wraiths were simply a means to an end.

But in spite of Dukat's machinations, I think that ultimately he was more the means to the Pah-wraiths' ends!

 

[Marco Palmieri]

It's also a huge and often-repeated mistake, I think, to separate Dukat's actions before his exposure to the Pah-wraiths from those he took after, for a very good reason: Keiko O'Brien and Jake Sisko were similarly used as wraith-vessels ("The Assignment" and "The Reckoning," respectively), and neither of them were forever altered by the experience. Dukat's undisguised malice during those last two seasons was his own. The wraiths were simply a means to an end.

But in spite of Dukat's machinations, I think that ultimately he was more the means to the Pah-wraiths' ends!

I thought it was pretty clear that they were using each other to serve their common interests...in a manner that was somehwat analogous to, and wholly consistent with, Dukat's relationship to the Dominion: he sought out a superior power he couldn't control to achieve his ends, and it was his undoing both times.

 

[Una McCormack]

Funny. Before Fearful Symmetry, I wouldn't have said pre-Pah Wraith Dukat committed any unspeakable crimes [...] But is there something in particular that I'm missing that he was responsible for?

You mean apart from just his ego-driven running of the oppressive occupation of an unthreatening alien world for close to a quarter-century? Well, let's see...

[big snip] But apart from all that - what have the Cardassians ever done for us?!

But, yes, Dukat - *shudder* it's the self-delusion and the justifications that do it, IMHO. Garak also commits or attempts unspeakable acts, but you always have the feeling he knows exactly how bad they are.

The moment that sums up Dukat for me is after Kira refuses his gift of a dress. He promptly palms if off on Ziyal and, when she says how thoughtful he is, his expression seems to say: "Yes, I am thoughtful, aren't I?! I'm such a good man/father/prefect/overlord..."

Perhaps his only genuinely selfless act is not murdering Ziyal, although I'm willing to be convinced otherwise.

ETA: As others have noted already, FS has given his scenes with Kira a real extra chill for me. Particularly that gift of a dress, now I think about it.

 

[captcalhoun]

the reason why Garak gets away with (literal) murder, is he's so goddamn charming. whereas Dukat's just a slimy bastard.

 

[Caleuche]

the reason why Garak gets away with (literal) murder, is he's so goddamn charming. whereas Dukat's just a slimy bastard.

I think I disagree. I think that Garak gets away with murder because when he murders it suits a cause and is usually the most pragmatic answer to a problem and people can see that. He doesn't make light of it or run away from the truth either.
Dukat's the one who gets away with murder (approx 5 million Bajorans, I believe) thanks to presence and charisma. You don't get anywhere in the cult leading business without charisma.

 

[Marie1]

I think the trouble is we're all a little addicted to the relaunch... and we want to know what happens... in a perfect world... FS would have been 2000 pages long... poor Olivia Woods!! LOL

I'm fearfully eager to see her continuation.

 

[flandry84]

Gul Dukat has always reminded me of those monsters we (thankfully)rarely see in the dock in the Hague.
He seems utterly baffeled by the reactions he provokes in others and cannot admit to anyone, least of all himself,how dark a heart beats within his breast.

 

[Marie1]

As absolutely traumatized as I am with what Dukat did in FS- if you take a look at Dukat's actions- and mostly his face in "A Time to Stand, about 2/3 of the way through- that speaks volumes about him- his character, and really, what he's done. Once I remembered that face- I knew what happened in FS was plausible. Gross.......

 

[Marie1]

I was looking to see if anything has been released about the Soul Key yet, and what I found seems a bit odd. The Amazon product description (and I know such things can be wonky) seems like the one for Fearful Symmetry, but with some exceptions (possible spoilers):

In our universe, a Cardassian sleeper agent--Iliana Ghemor--was once surgically altered to resemble and replace resistance fighter Kira Nerys, future Starfleet captain and hero of the planet Bajor's liberation. That plan never reached fruition, and the fate of the agent remained unknown...until now.Robbed of the past sixteen years, Iliana Ghemor is back with a vengeance. Over a decade and a half of imprisonment and abuse by her former masters has brought her to the brink of madness, sustained only by the twisted belief that she is, in fact, the real Kira Nerys. She has already made one near-successful attempt on the real Kira's life, but instead of assuming the identity of the woman she was intended to replace, Ghemor has set her sights on the most unexpected target of all: Kira's other double, the malicious Intendent, Bajor's iron-fisted ruler in the alternate reality commonly known as the "Mirror Universe." But far more is unfolding in the Mirror Universe than Ghemor realizes, and the heroes of Deep Space Nine somehow must stop the false Kira without derailing the delicate flow of history that must unfold if both universes, and countless others, are to survive.
Parallel stories set in both universes reflect and build upon each other in this Two-in-One "Flip Book," the continuation of both the ongoing DS9 saga as well as the Mirror Universe line of books.

Is the Soul Key going to be a flip book too?
Is it usual to put up a similar synopsis of book that takes place before the book you're waiting for as filler?

It also says that SK is Woods' first ST book, which isn't true.

Apparently you can pre-order the Soul Key already!

 

[William Leisner]

(and I know such things can be wonky)

It's almost to the point where finding accurate descriptions at Amazon is exception rather than the rule.

 

[Christopher]

Is the Soul Key going to be a flip book too?

No. That sounds like the description for what Fearful Symmetry was originally planned to be.

Is it usual to put up a similar synopsis of book that takes place before the book you're waiting for as filler?

In Amazon's case, it seems to be increasingly common. In their page for Bill Leisner's Losing the Peace, the description is actually for his installment of the Slings and Arrows e-book miniseries.

 

[Marie1]

Argh, are they crazy?? Though I kinda like that idea for FS- it sounds like it may have gone a bit farther than the edition we got (which was still good but...).

But still, this is not cool!
I mean, by the time they pull info from other books they could just say "description coming soon"- which I'm sure the customers wouldn't mind since the book is (gasp*) almost a year away!!

TBH, I find that description for FS a bit misleading, given what happened in Warpath...
Fortunate for them I'd be excited about this book anyway... -_-
Would it be cruel to suggest that the people who edit these sites use official information or confer with someone who knows... something?

 

[JD]

Yeah, I've been thinking pretty much the same thing. You'd think someone would check to make sure that what they are putting up is actually accurate.

 

[Marie1]

Or half accurate... or not about a completely different novel... *irritated*
To that end, I think that the FS description kinda spoils... Warpath at least? And part of FS... Doesn't it kinda?

 

[JD]

Not anymore than most book backcovers in an ongoing series.