the ship..is sinking

[RobertScorpio]

Many folks blame Rick Berman/Braga for the decline of TREK towards the end of their watch. I like to think it was a set of problems, but no doubt about it; they contributed.

What was the point where you thought, ummmm, the ship (STAR TREK) was starting to take on water???

Rob
Scorpio

 

[GodThingFormerly]

What was the point where you thought, ummmm, the ship (STAR TREK) was starting to take on water???

The point where Gene Roddenberry was replaced by Harve "Time Trax" Bennett.

TGT

 

[SonicRanger]

UPN rather than syndication. Being on a network required more and more commercials and less and less story. UPN itself was a sinking ship, and VOY was its flagship show, at least for the first few years, so the network paid extra attention to it -- too much network attention is bad thing. Network mandates about not serializing, not allowing a damaged ship, not keeping the Maquis-Starfleet discord, etc all took their toll.

Other producers hurt Trek just as much as, if not more than, Berman and Braga. Piller was pretty stale on VOY. Jeri Taylor didn't do much better. Kenneth Biller was terrible in Season 7 -- Braga actually vetoed many of Biller's bad ideas and even fired him, but Biller was rehired to be Executive Producer for Season 7 while Berman and Braga started working on ENT.

Just blaming "B & B" for Trek's decline is lazy and incorrect.

 

[Captain X]

The point the studio began to interfere with the shows in a vain attempt to recapture the TNG "formula" that made said show so highly rated. If you read the original concepts for VOY and ENT, most of them are actually much better than what we got. I think DS9 suffered both from being ahead of its time, and from competition from other sci fi shows that were starting to appear in the mid-'90s.

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

The point the studio began to interfere with the shows in a vain attempt to recapture the TNG "formula" that made said show so highly rated. If you read the original concepts for VOY and ENT, most of them are actually much better than what we got. I think DS9 suffered both from being ahead of its time, and from competition from other sci fi shows that were starting to appear in the mid-'90s.

Bingo. I'm sure if Berman and Braga weren't being bent over the table by the network, we'd have gotten better shows out of VOY and ENT.

 

[Nebusj]

What was the point where you thought, ummmm, the ship (STAR TREK) was starting to take on water???

For me, it was around the 16th of November 1991. I started to feel like the effort involved in following this week to week was maybe not going to be packed with enough cool or exciting stuff.

Notice that I'm still hanging around in fan circles seventeen years after that, though.

 

[RobertScorpio]

What was the point where you thought, ummmm, the ship (STAR TREK) was starting to take on water???

For me, it was around the 16th of November 1991. I started to feel like the effort involved in following this week to week was maybe not going to be packed with enough cool or exciting stuff.

Notice that I'm still hanging around in fan circles seventeen years after that, though.

Yep..its a pretty crowded club house for sure!!!

Rob

 

[Augustus]

Nemesis, the low point in my star trak fan career was when Nemesis debuted in the box office behind a jennifer lopez movie. that was a horrible day and before that moment I wasn't too worried, but after that, yeah I saw the ship sinking...

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

To me, anyway, it came with the introduction of Seven of Nine. SUCH an obvious boobs-for-ratings ploy...I was disgusted and ended up tuning out the show.

DS9 only suffered, I think, for what others have said: ahead of its time, and strong competitors. Had it aired now, I think it would've enjoyed the success Battlestar Galactica (similar in themes and tone, just pushed to much darker extremes), also an RDM production, has had.

With the movies...Insurrection. It was AWFUL. Nemesis, for all the bashing it gets, is at least an enjoyable watch for me even if it's not the best of the movies.

 

[Kirk-Fu]

Like others have said I think it was when 7 of 9 was on Voayager. They cared more about sex appeal than story.

 

[2 of 10]

So, what you're asking is when did Trek "Jump the Shark" I have mixed feelings reguarding this question. Each series was different, so in my humble opinion it hard to say that the entire enterprise (no pun intended) jumped the shark at any one specific time. That being said I was sooo dissapointed the way that they killed off Jadzia in "Sacrifice of Angels" I totally love DS-9, however, when I saw that episode it tainted the entire next and final season for me. To be sure there were some good episodes in Sea 7, but the Dukat/Kai Winn story arc was a total streach. Then Worf and Ezri have their little fling. So, for me the Ship really did not sink however, it did start to take on water starting with the lame way they killed off Jadzia and replaced her with a Tinker Bell version of a Dax host...

Resistance is Futile

 

[JNG]

it did start to take on water starting with the lame way they killed off Jadzia and replaced her with a Tinker Bell version of a Dax host...

You do know the actress left to do a sitcom, right?

I'd say I got seriously worried around the ENT episode "A Night in Sickbay."

 

[jgdst]

I think I started having misgivings during season six of Voyager. Season seven was more or less unenjoyable for me, and I think Kenneth Biller had a lot to do with that.

I think season 4 and 5 were prime examples of what the show could be, before they went hellbent on quick-fix episodes that nearly always include Seven of Nine's miraculous Borg nanoprobes.

The reason I think Enterprise faltered was due to the fact that B&B borrowed more from Voyager's setup than from DS9, which I felt gave a more fleshed out experience - large supporting cast, more character driven stories instead of anomaly/monster/reset button of the week episodes.

While I think Berman and Braga started to lose the plot, Berman did helm the franchise during its most successful period and Braga injected a refreshing shot in the arm to Voyager when he became Executive Producer. I'm less of a fan of Braga's writing than his creativity.

Like a lot of people in a position of power, once they hit their peak there was really only one way to go. I think they've taken an unfair amount of criticism and sniping - true, they're not totally blameless - but they did give us some very entertaining years of Trek in the late 90s.

But long story short, looking back on it, VOY season 6 is where I started to think "there's something not right here..."

 

[Good Will Riker]

During DS9's 1st season, although the show did recover later.

But, then we had TNG's 7th season, Generations, Voyager, a save with First Contact, but then we ended up with Insurrection, then Enterprise, Nemesis, and These Are the Voyages.

After all is said and done, I myself am really surprised by the fact that we are getting a new big-budgeted Star Trek feature film in 2009.

 

[RobertScorpio]

During DS9's 1st season, although the show did recover later.

But, then we had TNG's 7th season, Generations, Voyager, a save with First Contact, but then we ended up with Insurrection, then Enterprise, Nemesis, and These Are the Voyages.

After all is said and done, I myself am really surprised by the fact that we are getting a new big-budgeted Star Trek feature film in 2009.

It is amazing that TREK is getting this big chance after NEMESIS and ENTERPRISE both stalled out of the gates. And this rejuvination project was the only way to really do it. Some old die hards won't like it, but I think Paramount has realized that those old die hard fans are a dying breed. There are more fans to be gained than to be lost...

Rob

 

[Marie1]

Yes- I'd say the move from good writing and interesting stories to focus instead on 7 of 9 and that nonsense they did with T'pol shot the franchise in the foot. And then instead of going back to strong characters, interesting events and cool exploring etc., they just kept hitting the same mistakes with a hammer trying to fix them. -_-

 

[JoeZhang]

I don't think you can point to specific in-universe problems - the issues were wider and systemic. Trek just had no energy, no tense to it - just lots of middle aged people in PJs talking to people with chicken nuggets stuck on their heads.

What did it matter if you missed an episode of Voyager? Kim would still be standing at the back saying "shields at 50%!" - what was the "must see" element of any of those series for the casual viewer?

 

[JoeZhang]

DS9 only suffered, I think, for what others have said: ahead of its time, and strong competitors. Had it aired now, I think it would've enjoyed the success Battlestar Galactica (similar in themes and tone, just pushed to much darker extremes), also an RDM production, has had.

BSG is a niche product - there is no way that a trek project could continue for any period of time with such low audiences.

 

[SonicRanger]

Trek just had no energy, no tense to it - just lots of middle aged people in PJs talking to people with chicken nuggets stuck on their heads.

Yeah, there have been very few Trek characters in their 20s. Most are in their 30s and 40s, a few into their 50s and higher, and the occasional teen or even tween.

What did it matter if you missed an episode of Voyager? Kim would still be standing at the back saying "shields at 50%!" - what was the "must see" element of any of those series for the casual viewer?

And that's the way UPN wanted it. They didn't want the casual view to be confused if they missed an episode or two or four. But that cuts both ways: there was little motivation to tune in the new week to see how long-running storylines panned out.

 

[2 of 10]

I realize that Terry left to play a bartender on Becker, however, even that just added water to the ship. I have yet to find out why she did leave the series. I have read where she really wanted to stay, but they wanted to kill someone off, and it was to be her. I have also read they they wanted her to stay but she wanted out to go onto Becker. They did not let Robert Beltran out of his contract, why would they let her out?

If indeed she wanted to stay, and they felt to need to kill off a main character, why replace her at all. I did like the Ezri character, however as Garek said "I knew the real Dax, and you're not her". Finally, if she wated to play bartender, mabey she should have resigned her commision and gotten a job at Quarks as a Dabo Girl

Resistance is Futile