USS Kelvin

[Lyon_Wonder]

The USS Kelvin might be the early 23rd century equivalent of the Miranda or Centaur type ships?
http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t142/robertroberts_2007/ScreenHunter_01Nov282057-Copy.jpg
An easily mass-produced starship to compliment Starfleet’s flagships. Flag ship/heavy cruiser classes built in the same era as the USS Kelvin likely still had twin warp nacelles. Housing multiple sets of warp coils in a same nacelle eases ship assembly, though sacrificing redundancy that twin-warp nacelle ships have, which probably explains why ships with this configuration are rare in the TNG era. The USS Freedom in the TNG-era had a similar arrangement. Starfleet probably didn’t intend their single nacelle ships for deep space exploration much beyond Federation space and used them for patrol and missions within its borders.

 

[SG-17]

It does look similar to the Miranda class. I could easily see it being a progenitor of it.

 

[JNG]

The USS Freedom in the TNG-era had a similar arrangement. Starfleet probably didn’t intend their single nacelle ships for deep space exploration much beyond Federation space and used them for patrol and missions within its borders.

The Freedom-class starship seems awfully big to assume it is in any way crippled. If they've got ships 80 years older still doing exploration missions, I can't imagine that its warp performance is much inferior to those older ships, or it really beggars belief they'd bother to build it at all (though it still could be reasonably inferior to multi-nacelled starships of more recent vintage, and wow, that was a lot of "B" letters before).

Anyway, I can figure the Kelvin might be plumbing the depths of unexplored space too; I am not wild about one-nacelled ships, aesthetically or Treknologically speaking, but a limited number do seem to exist. I agree that most ships at that time probably had even numbers of nacelles.

 

[therritn]

Wasn't there a pre-Constitution class ship that had the Kelvin's look?

 

[Jimmy_C]

The USS Freedom in the TNG-era had a similar arrangement. Starfleet probably didn’t intend their single nacelle ships for deep space exploration much beyond Federation space and used them for patrol and missions within its borders.

The Freedom-class starship seems awfully big to assume it is in any way crippled. If they've got ships 80 years older still doing exploration missions, I can't imagine that its warp performance is much inferior to those older ships, or it really beggars belief they'd bother to build it at all (though it still could be reasonably inferior to multi-nacelled starships of more recent vintage, and wow, that was a lot of "B" letters before).

Anyway, I can figure the Kelvin might be plumbing the depths of unexplored space too; I am not wild about one-nacelled ships, aesthetically or Treknologically speaking, but a limited number do seem to exist. I agree that most ships at that time probably had even numbers of nacelles.

According to Intel's web site, the Kelvin has a set of two warp coils in that nacelle.

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=2346089&postcount=12

 

[trekkerdds]

It definitely seems that Franz Joseph's designs were consulted for the Kelvin.

 

[Christopher]

It does look similar to the Miranda class.

Only in profile, and only vaguely. It looks more like an inverted Constitution-Class ship with the two nacelles replaced by a single oversized one. Shades of Franz Joseph's Saladin/Hermes Class.

According to Intel's web site, the Kelvin has a set of two warp coils in that nacelle.

"Two rows of massive semicircular warp-field coils." That's the same configuration found inside either one of the Enterprise-D's nacelles in TNG, as seen in this image from "Eye of the Beholder." So it's not like it's two nacelles in one, aside from being much bigger than a normal nacelle.

 

[Manticore]

That arrangement was also used in Archer's time, at least judging by the various readouts that we saw in the Enterprise's engineering room that depicted the warp coils.

 

[SG-17]

Still having only one nacelle would leave the Kelvin at a disadvantage.
Lets hope the impulse engines are in the saucer portion, because if it is in the deflector portion than I can see alot of trouble if after a battle it loses both the nacelle and deflector portion.

 

[GodThingFormerly]

The ventral sensor radome appears to have a large chunk of its celestial view blocked by the oversized nacelle (which, incidentally, is sans TOS-era heat pipe radiators). I really miss Matt Jefferies.

TGT

 

[JNG]

Was it Probert who joked that the one-nacelled ships would fly in a circle? That would prevent deep-space exploration after all

 

[treleth]

The ventral sensor radome appears to have a large chunk of its celestial view blocked by the oversized nacelle (which, incidentally, is sans TOS-era heat pipe radiators). I really miss Matt Jefferies.

TGT

DO we know it's a sensor dome? THis one is a lot more shallower, and has hull plating over it, which wouldn't really make too much sense...

Secondly, it DOES have the radiators, they just aren't pipes. It has a much more organic look to it. It's too small to see if it has those surface area-increasing blocks on it.

 

[Unicron]

I think it was Gene who figured that single nacelles would fly in a circle, but he never really gave any thought to why they'd be engineered that way. There doesn't seem to be anything to suggest odd numbers of nacelles aren't feasible, although perhaps there is validity to the view that even numbers are a more optimum configuration.

 

[Christopher]

Still having only one nacelle would leave the Kelvin at a disadvantage.

Maybe. But we have single-engine planes as well as two- or four-engine planes, and single-propeller boats as well as multiple-propeller ones. So it's not as if it's an engineering absurdity. Just a different tradeoff. The single huge nacelle may have benefits the twin-nacelle design lacks, benefits which are suited to the particular needs of the Kelvin's class of ship.

Lets hope the impulse engines are in the saucer portion, because if it is in the deflector portion than I can see alot of trouble if after a battle it loses both the nacelle and deflector portion.

As shown in the images on the site, the impulse engines are exactly where you'd expect them to be, on the rear of the saucer.

Was it Probert who joked that the one-nacelled ships would fly in a circle?

I doubt it. That wouldn't make any sense, because it's based on the false assumption that a warp engine generates conventional thrust. It doesn't; it warps spacetime.

 

[Jimmy_C]

The ventral sensor radome appears to have a large chunk of its celestial view blocked by the oversized nacelle (which, incidentally, is sans TOS-era heat pipe radiators). I really miss Matt Jefferies.

TGT

Ya, but Jefferies obscured the main deflector AND the phaser array by the saucer. As well as having the warp pylons right next to the shuttle bay. (Those doors are a weak point.) And the impulse engines right next to the sole access path to the engineering hull (what happens if they have a radioactive waste accident and it spills into the "neck")? Or the exposed bridge. Or one turbolift to the bridge? Or windows on the warp pylons?

Or maybe the narcelle is transparent to whatever particles the radome uses for sensors?

And do you need to see heat pipes for them to be there? You're nitpicking. The Enterprise didn't have very large heat radiators attached to the narcells like you would expect if that was their actual purpose.

 

[SG-17]

Do we know exactly what the Kelvin was designed for? Exploration? Patrols? Transportation?

Nevertheless it would still have the same problem of the warp core being in the saucer section. Well more of the extra danger.

 

[GodThingFormerly]

Ya, but Jefferies obscured the main deflector AND the phaser array by the saucer.

There is evidence to suggest that the NCC-1701 miniature was fabricated without visible weapons ports because Gene Roddenberry thought he could avoid telling stories where spacecraft shoot death rays at each other, and he even managed to achieve that until the demands of space opera became unavoidable circa Balance of Terror. I don't know what you mean about the main deflector, sorry.

As well as having the warp pylons right next to the shuttle bay. (Those doors are a weak point.)

The warp pylons - assuming they extend into the secondary hull - would be hidden behind the bulkhead at the forward end of the shuttlebay.

And the impulse engines right next to the sole access path to the engineering hull (what happens if they have a radioactive waste accident and it spills into the "neck")?

What radioactive waste? Tritium? The Doomsday Machine makes it clear that the impulse engines are thermonuclear fusion energized. Besides, any "accident" serious enough to vent impulse reactor products into the habitable section of the primary hull would very likely destroy the ship.

Or the exposed bridge.

If the deflectors fail it wouldn't make the slightest difference where the bridge is located.

Or one turbolift to the bridge?

Which was fixed by Jefferies for Phase II.

Or windows on the warp pylons?

Observation posts for hard-dockings?

Or maybe the narcelle is transparent to whatever particles the radome uses for sensors?

Presumably the nacelle housing would opaque to gamma-rays and other products of anti-matter/koino-matter reactions so as to avoid irradiating the rest of the ship, but okay.

And do you need to see heat pipes for them to be there?

As they would need to be exposed directly to the space environment to function, yes, I think so.

You're nitpicking.

Nitpicking at TrekBBS.com? Heaven forfend!

The Enterprise didn't have very large heat radiators attached to the narcells like you would expect if that was their actual purpose.

How do you know that, exactly? As I pointed out only recently, the NCC-1701 could have been equipped with a radiator the size of a penny if it were run at sufficiently high temperature.

TGT

 

[Vance]

I think it was Gene who figured that single nacelles would fly in a circle, but he never really gave any thought to why they'd be engineered that way.

The whole reason for that was explicitly to discredit the Technical Manual, (which GR even goes farther in debasing in the TNG:TM). Considering that even in TNG we see odd-numbered nacelle craft, I think it makes more logical sense to consider that whole bit a 'bunch a' hooey'.

 

[Jimmy_C]

Ya, but Jefferies obscured the main deflector AND the phaser array by the saucer.

There is evidence to suggest that the NCC-1701 miniature was fabricated without visible weapons ports because Gene Roddenberry thought he could avoid telling stories where spacecraft shoot death rays at each other, and he even managed to achieve that until the demands of space opera became unavoidable circa Balance of Terror. I don't know what you mean about the main deflector, sorry.

If a space rock comes at the ship from above the saucer, then it is obscured by the saucer. From it's position on the ship, it only deflects a small part of the stuff in the way. It also deflects a lot of stuff that is in no way going to hit the ship, since it is so far from the center line.

As well as having the warp pylons right next to the shuttle bay. (Those doors are a weak point.)

The warp pylons - assuming they extend into the secondary hull - would be hidden behind the bulkhead at the forward end of the shuttlebay.

So? If a shuttle loses control and smashes into that bulkhead... You lose your warp reactors? If a terrorist smuggles a small bomb onboard a shuttle... then it disables the ship? If an enemy shoots right into the shuttlebay, then that bulkhead should be as strong as the outer hull if it is to protect the structural integerity of those struts. That seems like a waste. And what about moving all those supplies and equipment that you bring aboard the shuttlebay... right past such a critical part of the ship. If anything, the shuttlebay should be in its own nacelle in case of an accident.

What radioactive waste? Tritium? The Doomsday Machine makes it clear that the impulse engines are thermonuclear fusion energized. Besides, any "accident" serious enough to vent impulse reactor products into the habitable section of the primary hull would very likely destroy the ship.

In Obsession, radioactive waste was vented from the impulse engines.

"Captain, I cleaned the radioactive disposal vent on number two engine, but we'll be ready to leave orbit in a half hour."

"Open hatch on impulse engine number two."
"Mr. Scott was doing an A.I.D. cleanup on it."
"We won't be using the impulse engines. Turn the alarm off."

"When it entered impulse engine number two's vent, it attacked two crewmen, then got into the ventilating system."

http://www.voyager.cz/tos/epizody/48obsessiontrans.htm

And there doesn't have to be a major accident. What if the accident occurred during the cleanup procedure?

If the deflectors fail it wouldn't make the slightest difference where the bridge is located.

What about a glancing shot? Or simply moving from the bridge to other areas of the ship. If you need to get to the bridge, it will take longer than necessary.

Which was fixed by Jefferies for Phase II.

And so, Matt Jefferies wasn't perfect. Neither are the producers for the new show.

Observation posts for hard-dockings?

Is there even room to get there? Why waste bringing life support up that far in the ship's structure. Don't have remote cameras in the 23rd century?

Presumably the nacelle housing would opaque to gamma-rays and other products of anti-matter/koino-matter reactions so as to avoid irradiating the rest of the ship, but okay.

Couldn't that use some "subspace technobable field" to scan with? The Enterprise has FTL sensors. Why do you assume that sensor only detects gamma rays? Or why that's what it does?

As they would need to be exposed directly to the space environment to function, yes, I think so.

That's why the the heat sink in my computer case is directly exposed to the atmosphere and is not inside any case whatsoever. Right?

And why doesn't the impulse engine get a heat pipe? Or the refit Enterprise? Or the 1701-D? And if those "fins" on the refit Enterprise are heat pipes, why can't the fins on these craft be heat pipes too?

You're nitpicking.

Nitpicking at TrekBBS.com? Heaven forfend!

As long as you realize you're nitpicking and not having a legit complaint...

The Enterprise didn't have very large heat radiators attached to the narcells like you would expect if that was their actual purpose.

How do you know that, exactly? As I pointed out only recently, the NCC-1701 could have been equipped with a radiator the size of a penny if it were run at sufficiently high temperature.

TGT

Then why do you gripe about the new 1701 which likewise could have a radiator the size of a penny.

 

[Unicron]

The whole reason for that was explicitly to discredit the Technical Manual, (which GR even goes farther in debasing in the TNG:TM). Considering that even in TNG we see odd-numbered nacelle craft, I think it makes more logical sense to consider that whole bit a 'bunch a' hooey'.

* shrugs * I don't really know. I got the impression from reading the interviews with Andrew Probert that Gene had had that idea early on, because he thought it necessary for the ship to make a stable warp field. In that sense the idea kind of makes sense, but it was never demonstrated in such a capacity onscreen. And clearly warp engines don't have to be confined within the structure of nacelles, since we've seen many designs without them.

But as far as Gene having a vendetta against FJ, I've heard differing accounts of that so I don't comment on it. Probert didn't give a specific timeframe for when Roddenberry mentioned that idea to him.