Any good Black Friday stories?

[Trekker4747]

They created a mob situation by attracting large numbers of people with their specials and didn't take measures with either ropes or security personell to contain and order the crowd. They just let a mass group of people gather at a door, they opened them up, and just let the people go.

As happened at plenty of other stores... And as happens on every other day. I'm sure employees know what they are getting into
And was that employee supposed to be where he was when he was hurt?
He was charged with opening the doors. When he did the mob pushed though and trampled him.

What do you think will happen when you block hundreds of people behind locked doors on the day before a big sale and then suddenly open them? People push, shove and clamor and turn into animals. This Wal-Mart didn't take precautions for crowd control -something they should've expected and forseen.

Should they have? Since when does people running for the best deals lead to death?
The mentality and busisness around Black Friday is hardly a new concept, I've no idea what paticular deals Wal-Mart had going today but anyone with half a wit could forseen large crowds and that some form of crowd control would be called for.

They created a mob situation.

They are responsible.

Once again, we will have to agree to disagree

Perhaps. But the point remains that Wal-Mart failed to manage a situation that lead to a man's death. His surviving family can either try and to use remarkable forensics to find the people who stepped on him -leading to his death for restitution or they can sue the one, single, large body that created the situation in the first place and failed to do their job in managing a large crowd.

Black Friday crowds at places like Wal-Mart are hardly anything new. I'm sure Wal-Mart was running some-kind-of massive, nutty, ad today. They should've of forseen large crowds gathering at their stores. People are nuts on Black Friday. They wake up in the wee hours of the day to get good parking spots and be first in line for when the doors open. Everyone knows this.

They should've easily forseen large crowds and taken some measure of crowd control. They didn't. A man died.

 

[hamudm]

^^You go shopping under the reasonable assumption that this isn't going to be a dangerous shopping experience. You reasonably expect that you can go in there, under normal circumstances, shop for your items and be on your merry way. By hyping Black Friday deals and changing the store hours, an expectation is created among people that rare deals will be gone if they don't get there first in line... hence the creation of a mob. It's not unreasonable to assume that Wal-Mart full-well knew that the conditions would be dangerous.

Why can someone sue WM if they slip in water and fall but not sue for being trampled to death? In the same vein as the shoppers' scenario, every WM employee goes to work under the reasonable assumption that their working conditions will be safe as they did not apply for any high-risk position. Obviously, these workers are not trained to handle the mob.

Any other large venue with large amounts of people, that is prone to similar situations is required to have security personnel that are trained and expect to encounter sticky situations... be it concerts, sporting events, etc... these venues are held accountable. Wal-Mart has created an atmosphere where these similar conditions occur (if not worse) and have not taken reasonable measures to safeguard its customers and as such must be held accountable.

End of story.

 

[nevermore]

They created a mob situation by attracting large numbers of people with their specials and didn't take measures with either ropes or security personell to contain and order the crowd. They just let a mass group of people gather at a door, they opened them up, and just let the people go.

As happened at plenty of other stores... And as happens on every other day. I'm sure employees know what they are getting into

Yes, of course, they all understand that by working a shitty retail job, their lives might be forfeit. Perfectly reasonable assumption to make.

And was that employee supposed to be where he was when he was hurt?

He was unlocking the door, which these fuckwits also trampled. So yes, he was supposed to be there. Perhaps if Wal-Mart had, I don't know, dropped a few bucks on a uniformed security guard or five to do that job, the animals might have been corralled a bit.

Should they have? Since when does people running for the best deals lead to death?

It's called crowd control. Large groups of people, especially in a competitive atmosphere, require security. Full stop.

 

[Non Sync]

MSNBC is reporting two dead after a shooting at a Toys R Us in Palm Desert, California.

Initial reports are that the shooting is not shopping related. A city of Palm Desert spokesperson had been told by police that "two groups of individuals that have a dispute with each other."

 

[DanCPA]

They should've easily forseen large crowds and taken some measure of crowd control. They didn't. A man died.

I would say that they did forsee this... which is why they cleared out the entrances at the time of opening

And this mans family doesn't need extreme forensics... no doubt the police already has the video

 

[Trekker4747]

They should've easily forseen large crowds and taken some measure of crowd control. They didn't. A man died.

I would say that they did forsee this... which is why they cleared out the entrances at the time of opening

They clearly didn't do enough. Ropes, barriers, some form of other method to control the flow of people through the doors would've been more apt.

 

[DanCPA]

which these fuckwits also trampled.

so, why not punish the fuckwits that actually did this to him instead of going after Wal-Mart?

It's not unreasonable to assume that Wal-Mart full-well knew that the conditions would be dangerous.

busy yes... dangerous, no.
one does not necessarily equal the other

And the same people yelling for security now would be complaining about how Wal-Mart only has security looking over people's shoulder at "poor stores" or racial discrimination for putting security at inner city stores only if they actually did it

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

If he was told to stand clear of the mob and chose not to, how is that managements fault?

I didn't say it was management. They're not at fault. It was the crowd that KILLED the man - they're the ones at fault.

Them, and the ridiculous bullshit BUY, BUY, BUY, NOW, NOW, NOW culture we have.

If the people weren't running, that employee would not have died.

Yes. And if bars didn't have to stop serving booze at 2am in California, chances are there would be less drunks on the roads at that time... If someone is hit by a drunk driver around 2am, should they file claim against the State of California?

If something like that happens, they can charge the bartenders, I believe. If not, I wish they could.

MSNBC is reporting two dead after a shooting at a Toys R Us in Palm Desert, California.

Initial reports are that the shooting is not shopping related. A city of Palm Desert spokesperson had been told by police that "two groups of individuals that have a dispute with each other."

Well, isn't that the pickle on the giant crap sandwich that is this day. (Assuming you actually believe that the shooting wasn't Black Friday related... )

 

[DanCPA]

They clearly didn't do enough.

Seeing as this was an unique situation over the dozens of years that these types of sales have taken place, I would say that this is an extraordinary situation... And you can't really guard against EVERY contingency.

Ropes, barriers, some form of other method to control the flow of people through the doors would've been more apt.

Perhaps. But letting people in one at a time at all their stores nation wide would likely lead to even more unrest in the parking lots. I was at an office depot line early this morning, and I got the last ticket for the $349 laptop... The lady after me nearly threw a shit fit... At the end of the situation she shut up because we subdued her (by talking to her) and she was one of a small few to bitch and moan... Given the sheer volume of customers at Wal-Mart, it seems unlikely to avoid these situations.

And yes, the guy opening the door knew that the mob was going to fly right in... I don't see what reasonable precautions Wal-Mart could have taken to prevent the trampling. We should keep in mind that people don't go to Wal-Mart go get only 1 thing

 

[DanCPA]

If something like that happens, they can charge the bartenders, I believe.

The bartender is liable iff (economics for if and only if) it was pretty clear that the guy was heavily impaired... A guy with a buzz does not lead back to the bartender as so far as liability is concerned.

And "They took the doors off the hinges."
Straight quote from an employee that saw everything. Obviously those in the mob should be charged for their crimes, but Wal-Mart could not have forseen, and in my opinion, not be liable for this mans death.

 

[Trekker4747]

And yes, the guy opening the door knew that the mob was going to fly right in... I don't see what reasonable precautions Wal-Mart could have taken to prevent the trampling.

Some or ANY method of crowd control other than "hundreds of people gather by the door and when it opens everyone for themself."

 

[DanCPA]

And yes, the guy opening the door knew that the mob was going to fly right in... I don't see what reasonable precautions Wal-Mart could have taken to prevent the trampling.

Some or ANY method of crowd control other than "hundreds of people gather by the door and when it opens everyone for themself."

But that method has worked for decades... and worked at all but 1 of their stores today.
This was a case of an unruly crowd getting totally out of control... And I will point out that the vast majority of the crowd was African American... If Wal-Mart begins to "secure" these stores, how long until the ACLU starts screaming racial discrimination?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

But that method has worked for decades...

Wake up! It's not fucking working anymore! Do you even realize how bad it's gotten? These are nothing more than bloodthirsty mobs.

This was a case of an unruly crowd getting totally out of control...

On that we agree. Not only that, it's consumerism getting out of control.

And I will point out that the vast majority of the crowd was African American...

Big fuckin' deal.

If Wal-Mart begins to "secure" these stores, how long until the ACLU starts screaming racial discrimination?

Which would you rather have: The store might get sued, but nobody gets trampled or shot to death; or no security measures are taken (due to a fear of lawsuits) and people DO get killed?

 

[Mallory]

And yes, the guy opening the door knew that the mob was going to fly right in... I don't see what reasonable precautions Wal-Mart could have taken to prevent the trampling.

Some or ANY method of crowd control other than "hundreds of people gather by the door and when it opens everyone for themself."

A barbed wire funnel with security guards from the local chapter of Hell's Angels would probably suffice.

 

[Crusher Disciple]

And I will point out that the vast majority of the crowd was African American... If Wal-Mart begins to "secure" these stores, how long until the ACLU starts screaming racial discrimination?

You know, the funny thing is that when I heard about this tragedy, I pictured the entire crowd made up of white people. I never even thought about it being comprised of minorities, including African Americans. I was really surprised to find out that the crowd was African Americans.

I guess when I think about the "reasoning" that goes behind spending the night in front of a store and waiting for it to open at 5am so you can get $200 off of a tv, I just think of all the stupid white trash relatives my mother has and assume the crowds are made up of people like them.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

A barbed wire funnel with security guards from the local chapter of Hell's Angels would probably suffice.

Not a bad idea, that.

 

[ria 75]

That Black Friday business is fucked up. Why can't it be spread over several days?
I can't believe I'd never heard of it before (like the after Christmas sales. How long do those last?).

 

[DanCPA]

Wake up! It's not fucking working anymore!

Because it didn't work once does not mean the system has failed.

Do you even realize how bad it's gotten?

Very much so, but there is implied consent by all the shoppers who are there, who are part of the mob. And I bet if some people go to jail over this, it won't happen again.

These are nothing more than bloodthirsty mobs.

Consenting bloodthirsty mobs

it's consumerism getting out of control.

Which isn't a bad thing to me. I remember the lines for tickets before ticketmaster went online... This is just how it happens. Before it was for Laker playoff tickets... Now it's for that 32" plasma tv... In the future it will be for soemthing else. Human beings are violent, and some choose to use those ability over their reasoning on occasion. We can't prevent it

And I will point out that the vast majority of the crowd was African American...

Big fuckin' deal.

It is a deal... If they started putting security at all the stores in predominantly African American neighborhoods EVERYONE that is calling for the evil Wal-Mart to pay would be screaming bloody murder for profiling.

If Wal-Mart begins to "secure" these stores, how long until the ACLU starts screaming racial discrimination?

Which would you rather have: The store gets sued, but nobody gets trampled or shot to death; or no security measures are taken (due to a fear of lawsuits) and people DO get killed?

I believe that if we punish those that killed this man, the "let everyone in at once" system will work again. This mob was out of control, but that should not deter from the enjoyment that many shoppers get from taking part in these black-friday free for alls.

 

[DanCPA]

That Black Friday business is fucked up. Why can't it be spread over several days?

Because businesses compete with each other... They compete to say they had xyz sales volume. There will be plenty of spectacular deals, some perhaps better than the ones we saw today, during the rest of the holiday shopping season... but to get things off to a strong start, they all want to start off right, and with the mob outside their door!

You know, the funny thing is that when I heard about this tragedy, I pictured the entire crowd made up of white people.

As did I

I guess when I think about the "reasoning" that goes behind spending the night in front of a store and waiting for it to open at 5am so you can get $200 off of a tv, ...

I think that many of these people make $10/hr (if not less) and this might be the only way they can afford to get one of those tv's this year... Plus, those 6 hours of sitting outside the store multiplies times 3 times their normal wage (more if you count taxes that said employee would pay)

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Wake up! It's not fucking working anymore!

Because it didn't work once does not mean the system has failed.

The system clearly IS failing.

there is implied consent by all the shoppers who are there, who are part of the mob.

Consent to what? Get shot? Stabbed? Trampled to death?

And I bet if some people go to jail over this, it won't happen again.

People in general are nasty, brutish, violent animals. This is just one more bit of proof. But you're right, it may well take serious jail time to put a lid on this shit.

Which isn't a bad thing to me. I remember the lines for tickets before ticketmaster went online... This is just how it happens.

I doubt it was as bad then. Did you see people being injured or killed then?

Before it was for Laker playoff tickets... Now it's for that 32" plasma tv... In the future it will be for soemthing else.

Not if we put sufficient control on the people involved.

Human beings are violent, and some choose to use those ability over their reasoning on occasion. We can't prevent it

We can try.

It is a deal... If they started putting security at all the stores in predominantly African American neighborhoods EVERYONE that is calling for the evil Wal-Mart to pay would be screaming bloody murder for profiling.

As I said, I would consider it an acceptable risk...Better that the occasional profiling charge gets flung around, than the mobs be allowed to further spiral out of control and kill even more people.

I believe that if we punish those that killed this man, the "let everyone in at once" system will work again.

We'll see if anyone actually does get punished. It might be possible to check credit card receipts at this store, as well as check the security camera footage, to determine who was in the crowd and thereby find out who to charge - if not with murder, then at least reckless endangerment and possibly manslaughter.

This mob was out of control, but that should not deter from the enjoyment that many shoppers get from taking part in these black-friday free for alls.

It should.