Was The Prime Directive Violated.

[2 of 10]

In "Though the Looking Glass" did Sisko violate The Prime Directive, I am under the impression that the Prime Directive applies wherever you may happen to be. Whether it's Voyager 75,000 LY's from the AQ or in a alternate universe??

Resistance is Futile

 

[Marie1]

Lets face it, the MU was messed up already, not like it could be made worse... LOL

 

[dave_R_treker]

Lets face it, the MU was messed up already, not like it could be made worse... LOL

Agreed.

 

[Unicron]

The PD has never been explained adequately or used consistently, but its purpose and use seem more restricted to first contacts and races who are on a lesser degree of cultural development, to prevent the Federation from causing contamination to that culture. Since the MU had no government that was a counterpart to the Federation or had similiar ideals, it's unlikely the PD could be enforced there even if it applied.

 

[Marie1]

^ On that note, does the PD have to do with whether the people in question have warp drive?

 

[Timo]

Not necessarily. We have never heard the exact wording, but we know that PD can be evoked even in relations between the UFP and a starfaring culture. This was done at least in the Klingon civil war in TNG "Redemption" and with the Circle affair on Bajor in DS9 "The Circle".

Also, cultures that do not yet have warp drive (either their own, or loaned) may still be in contact with interstellar neighbors, in which case the PD probably doesn't limit the making of contact. But it might still limit the degree to which the UFP or its Starfleet can meddle in the affairs of that civilization. Recently discussed here was the Edo culture of TNG "Justice", contacted despite apparently not operating warpships of its own, but later on referred to as being entitled to local laws and customs and protection from UFP busybodying.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Good Will Riker]

The PD has never been explained adequately or used consistently, but its purpose and use seem more restricted to first contacts and races who are on a lesser degree of cultural development, to prevent the Federation from causing contamination to that culture. Since the MU had no government that was a counterpart to the Federation or had similiar ideals, it's unlikely the PD could be enforced there even if it applied.

There was a rebellion about to be brewing like a powder keg that was ready to be ignited.

All it needed was a spark, and the regular Star Trek universe's Benjamin Sisko was their answer to that.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Sisko didn't represent himself as an outsider, even though he did use knowledge that only an outsider would be party to. Timo the Klingon Civil War can be read to have not been a prime directive issue because the script referred the binding document forcing their hand as a non interference policy or some such. I've been arguing the point with lawyerish morons for years, sorry.

But he totally broke the PD. Affected the rise and fall of empires and the shape of the galaxy. Just because we didn't see all the nice places under the rule of the alliance, it doesn't mean that they were a completely evil people... Compare Iraq under American occupation to the servile relationship America has with Puerta Rico?

I am quite of the belief that the PD is more about stopping the idiot lower ranks dragging the entire Federation into WARS they don't need to fight, and much like telling the Dominion "Here we are come and get us" that's exactly what Sisko did here. I'm surprised that the Alliance didn't sue for extradition?

 

[Unicron]

Not necessarily. We have never heard the exact wording, but we know that PD can be evoked even in relations between the UFP and a starfaring culture. This was done at least in the Klingon civil war in TNG "Redemption" and with the Circle affair on Bajor in DS9 "The Circle".

Also, cultures that do not yet have warp drive (either their own, or loaned) may still be in contact with interstellar neighbors, in which case the PD probably doesn't limit the making of contact. But it might still limit the degree to which the UFP or its Starfleet can meddle in the affairs of that civilization. Recently discussed here was the Edo culture of TNG "Justice", contacted despite apparently not operating warpships of its own, but later on referred to as being entitled to local laws and customs and protection from UFP busybodying.

I could be wrong, but I don't think the PD was cited in either of those cases. The Federation couldn't take sides in the Klingon civil war because it was an internal affair of that government, and the alliance didn't allow them to decide the leadership of the Empire. It was more of a military alliance than anything else. Picard was asked to arbitrate in an individual capacity because no one in the Klingon leadership could be trusted to do it. Same with the Circle, it was a group that didn't want Bajor to be affiliated with the Federation.

 

[Guy Gardener]

GOWRON: The Duras family is gathering a large force near Beta Thoridar. As per the terms of the Treaty of Alliance, I now formally request your assistance in fighting these enemies of the Empire.
RIKER: These enemies are Klingons.
GOWRON: By right and tradition, I am the sole leader. All who oppose me are traitors.
PICARD: I understand your position, but I', sure you're aware that the Federation cannot interfere in what is, by definition, an internal Klingon affair.
GOWRON: You arbitrated the Rite of Succession. You are already involved.
PICARD: My duties in that regard are finished.
WORF: Captain, we must intervene. The Duras family is corrupt and hungry for power with no sense of honour or loyalty. They represent a grave threat to the security of the Federation. Captain, you and I know that they have conspired with Romulans in the past. If they should be victors in this war, they will surely form a new Klingon-Romulan alliance. That would represent a fundamental shift of power in this quadrant. Starfleet must support Gowron. It is in the interests of both the Federation and the Empire. I beg you, support us in our cause.
PICARD: Mister Worf, I don't have to lecture you on the principle of non interference. As Starfleet officers, we have all sworn an oath to uphold that principle whatever our personal feelings. I'm sorry. I must refuse your request.
(Worf starts to follow Gowron out of the room)
PICARD: Mister Worf. I'm afraid I must recall you to duty. The Enterprise will be leaving this sector immediately.
WORF: Captain, I respectfully request that I be allowed to take an extended leave of absence.
PICARD: Mister Worf, your responsibilities as a Starfleet officer are incompatible with remaining on board a Klingon ship during a time of war.
WORF: Captain.
PICARD: I order you to return to duty at once.
WORF: Then I resign my commission as a Starfleet officer.
(Worf puts his comm. badge on the table)
GOWRON: I will await you aboard the Bortas.

Is the Noninterference Directive the Prime Directive?

 

[Timo]

That's a very nice distinction there, for us nitpickers. Alas, "The Circle" is more explicit:

Sisko: "They don't even know the Cardassians are involved."
Adm. Chekote: "Then, you're saying it's a genuine political revolution internal to Bajor?"
Sisko: "Supported by the Cardassians-"
Chekote: "But internal to Bajor. The Cardassians might involve themselves in other people's civil wars. But we don't. The Prime Directive applies, Ben."

Since the situation is analogous to that of "Redemption", and since "noninterference directive" and "Prime Directive" have been associated in other contexts as well, it would make sense not to make the distinction after all. The PD does appear to cover multiple angles of noninterference, ranging from letting primitive cultures completely to their own devices, to not meddling in the politics of mighty warp-capable rival star empires.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Guy Gardener]

I'm on your side, but this argument has been used against me a couple times when I inssist that the Prime Directive applies to post Warp Cultures. The Ultimate distinction however would have to be from Insurrection where Starfleet suddenly assumes they have cart blanch as soon as it becomes clear that the Aliens in that story are only pretending to be prewarp.

But then we all know that there's less no consistency and in fact some writers seem to be at war with ideology, which makes it delightful for us, no?

 

[EEE]

Sisko: "They don't even know the Cardassians are involved."
Adm. Chekote: "Then, you're saying it's a genuine political revolution internal to Bajor?"
Sisko: "Supported by the Cardassians-"
Chekote: "But internal to Bajor. The Cardassians might involve themselves in other people's civil wars. But we don't. The Prime Directive applies, Ben."

A Private Little War.

 

[Timo]

But then we all know that there's less no consistency and in fact some writers seem to be at war with ideology, which makes it delightful for us, no?

Yes.

A Private Little War.

It might be relevant whether the planet is in the hot focus of interstellar magnifying glasses, or some obscure backwater where a few thousand natives dying in a proxy war won't be noticed...

The effects (and effectiveness) of PD protection probably diminish sharply once the target culture has learned of the existence of the interstellar community and has started interacting with it. So "Redemption", "The Circle" and "A Private Little War" (or, say, "Friday's Child") would deal with cultures that are already as "contaminated" as they get, and there would be little need for the "secrecy" part of the PD. There might be a separate "decency" part, though, wherein the Feds try to stay out of internal strife. But "A Private Little War" might be more about external strife, and showing to the uppity Klingons who's really in charge; the Feds would have an incentive to compete with Klingons, but they would have little wish to do the same with Cardassians in "The Circle" since those were a far lesser menace, and perhaps even a strong future ally who might yet replace the weak Bajorans...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Marie1]

So... the PD has a double meaning perhaps- to do with planets they're unfamiliar with, especially ones that have less technologically, but maybe it also gives planets within the UFP autonomy with regards to individual governments, to a point?

 

[2 of 10]

In the Voyager espisode "The Omega Directive" Janeway does tell Tuvok the for the duration of the mission the PD is to be recinded, So it would seem that in certain situations a Capt or other senior officers can at his/her disgression can suspend the PD...

Resistance is Futile

 

[Lindley]

Yeah, well, the Omega Directive supersedes all others that we know of.

 

[Unicron]

It would definitely be nice to have more clarification on the PD, and any similar directives. Course, we'll probably never get it, at least not in a canon form.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Yeah, well, the Omega Directive supersedes all others that we know of.

Yep. That's codified in Starfleet regulations. Omega trumps EVERYTHING else. Even the Prime Directive.

 

[Guy Gardener]

But that was Voyager at it's fanwankiest. Rather than write a story about working around and with the prime directive and coping with the afternote that they're all bad people for bending, nigh snapping General Order Number One in two... Voyager's writers once more show that they are more mighty than any definition of respect for what had come before. Bah humbug.

Fanwank is a thrill, a cheap thrill, but a thrill.

Although I hardly see the point in seeing Janeway operate with her hands unbound when we had never ever really seen episode where she was bound.

The circle was excellent, but Picard made it out that if the Romulans were tagged for supporting the house of Duras, that the non-interference Directive would no longer apply and Starfleet could also chose sides... I must say although, that from the exerts read above, that the politicking in the Circle seemed more rational and logical... Hey, if it was discovered/proved during the Klingon Civil war that a couple Alien Governments were helping/supporting Gowron on a similar level to how the Romulan's were helping Duras, doesn't that mean that starfleet could enter the conflict and chose sides? Since logically it really doesn't matter who makes the conflict an "external matter" does it?

The problem with a private little war is that Kirk broke the prime directive and his rationalisation for how he didn't was utter bullshit. I mean it was peer pressure, competing with the Jones and crap... "If all your friends were jumping off the harbour bridge, would you?" I mean it wasn't too different from South Park a week ago when all the other kids went mental over High School Musical and Stan, Kyle, Kenny and Eric tried not to give into the allure of joining the herd. They lasted a good 18 minutes.

I read a short story where a survey mission showed up a couple years later and all the people on that planet were all quite dead. Um, has it been decided if Tyree's world is Tyree seen in the Image in the sand? because that planet seemed devoid a little of much civilization.