Archer's Aggression Explained!

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

To my satisfaction at least, not that my dissatisfaction was a universal thing.

I was always bothered by Archer's aggression in Broken Bow towards T'Pol and the rest of the Vulcan entourage. It was embarrassing. For that matter so was Trip in some scenes for the same reason.

But! I have been watching all of TOS again and having finished that I just watched Broken Bow and you know.. the human aggressive reactions fit right in with Kirk and McCoy. You don't think Captain Kirk would stand around letting the Vulcans look down on him do you? He'd be volatile. McCoy would be all huffy and pissy about logic and having no heart. This is the first time I've seen what I percieved as embarrassing behaviour on Archer's part as part of the Trek continuum, connected to the great Captain Kirk.

(I'll admit I'm a Trek apologist and wanted an answer that would sit well.. I don't enjoy disliking my Trek, LOL)

 

[jgdst]

That sounds pretty good... I'd always put it down to Archer's haircut at the time. The shorter his hair gets, the shorter his fuse is. Where Archer had seen his father held back and frustrated by the Vulcans, I was never really sure what Trip's motivation was, especially considering it's revealed he had a Vulcan teacher...

Your explanation makes a lot of sense with the comparison to McCoy.

It did surprise me at first that Enterprise gave the Vulcans a very superior arrogant attitude, but I think they handled their attitude and how it evolved quite well to what we knew from Kirk's and Picard's times.

Obviously by the time of DS9's Take Me Out To The Holosuite, that arrogance is starting to resurface among some Vulcans, and Sisko is equally irritated by it. But I think Sisko shares a few of Kirk's character traits, so that might explain it.

 

[Mach5]

I was always bothered by Archer's aggression in Broken Bow towards T'Pol and the rest of the Vulcan entourage.

I always thought that reasons behind Archers resentment toward Vulcans were pretty obvious. His father never lived to see the launch of Enterprise because Vulcans held back Earth's space program.

I was never really sure what Trip's motivation was, especially considering it's revealed he had a Vulcan teacher...

Trip (by his own admission in season 4) just enjoyed arguing with T'pol. He really didn't have anything against the Vulcans in general.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I was always bothered by Archer's aggression in Broken Bow towards T'Pol and the rest of the Vulcan entourage.

I always thought that reasons behind Archers resentment toward Vulcans were pretty obvious. His father never lived to see the launch of Enterprise because Vulcans held back Earth's space program.

I had no problem understanding his resentment. It was his behavior I couldn't countenance. It is unprofessional, utterly unprofessional for the captain of the flagship of Starfleet to tell T'Pol (a person he's never even met) that he will "knock her on her ass". He says this in front of his superior Admiral Forest. He thrashes around and gets very emotional. He has a moralizing spew about the Klingon not being taken off life support.

Tell Kirk "you can't go into space, you're not ready" and he would do the same thing! I can just hear some stuffy admiral admonishing him "Now Jim.." and Kirk talking over the top of him. It wasn't unprofessional when Kirk did it, it was dashing and strong minded, you could smell the testosterone. And you can look at Jonathon Archer's unprofessional behavior the same way.

 

[Lady Conqueror]

^Don't forget Admiral Forrest called Archer in on the Klingon meeting because he knew exactly how Archer would react and that would help with resisting the Vulcans claims to put the mission off yet again.

I didn't personally see Archer as being all that aggressive though - his comment about knocking T'Pol on her ass was really more about showing his frustration than anything. I never got the impression that he would ever actually hit her or any of the other Vulcans.

 

[Timo]

...He probably wouldn't dare, no. Never mind the political repercussions, the upcoming personal percussion and concussion would already be big enough a discouraging factor!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mach5]

I didn't personally see Archer as being all that aggressive though - his comment about knocking T'Pol on her ass was really more about showing his frustration than anything. I never got the impression that he would ever actually hit her or any of the other Vulcans.

Neither did I! Archer was simply fed up with the Vulcan arrogance, and didn't hesitate to show it. He never even came close to becoming violent.

 

[commodore64]

To the original poster -- yeah, that was the idea. Trip = McCoy, Archer = Kirk and T'Pol = Spock. I thought it worked and never had a problem with why Archer didn't like the Vulcans. I got it.

On the "knock you on your ass" remark from Archer, I always assumed it was meant sarcastically. She calls humans volatile and his retort is to prove she's right, but by taking it up a notch, like, "Listen, lady, you ain't seen nothing yet." I liked it.

I never thought he intended to hurt her. His posture wasn't aggressive with T'Pol and even the way he said the line wasn't that of an abusive male.

 

[Kalen Archer]

On the "knock you on your ass" remark from Archer, I always assumed it was meant sarcastically. She calls humans volatile and his retort is to prove she's right, but by taking it up a notch, like, "Listen, lady, you ain't seen nothing yet." I liked it.

That was how I saw that scene as well. I don't think Archer was seriously going to knock her over and I don't think T'Pol thought so either.

 

[angie]

I was always bothered by Archer's aggression in Broken Bow towards T'Pol and the rest of the Vulcan entourage.

I always thought that reasons behind Archers resentment toward Vulcans were pretty obvious. His father never lived to see the launch of Enterprise because Vulcans held back Earth's space program.

I was never really sure what Trip's motivation was, especially considering it's revealed he had a Vulcan teacher...

Trip (by his own admission in season 4) just enjoyed arguing with T'pol. He really didn't have anything against the Vulcans in general.

Did you watch The Expanse?? Trip had alot of baggage against the Vulcans.Alot of the crew seemed to resent them but we heard Trip voice his feelings frequently.

 

[Mach5]

Did you watch The Expanse??

Not recently, what exactly are you referring to?

 

[Captain X]

On the "knock you on your ass" remark from Archer, I always assumed it was meant sarcastically. She calls humans volatile and his retort is to prove she's right, but by taking it up a notch, like, "Listen, lady, you ain't seen nothing yet." I liked it.

That was how I saw that scene as well. I don't think Archer was seriously going to knock her over and I don't think T'Pol thought so either.

And yet still completely unprofessional and inappropriate.

 

[commodore64]

I was always bothered by Archer's aggression in Broken Bow towards T'Pol and the rest of the Vulcan entourage.

I always thought that reasons behind Archers resentment toward Vulcans were pretty obvious. His father never lived to see the launch of Enterprise because Vulcans held back Earth's space program.

I was never really sure what Trip's motivation was, especially considering it's revealed he had a Vulcan teacher...

Trip (by his own admission in season 4) just enjoyed arguing with T'pol. He really didn't have anything against the Vulcans in general.

Did you watch The Expanse?? Trip had alot of baggage against the Vulcans.Alot of the crew seemed to resent them but we heard Trip voice his feelings frequently.

I think Trip like the rest of the humans didn't *love* the Vulcans. In Broken Bow (both parts), the humans act like T'Pol is a major pain in the ass and she thinks they're a bunch of morons. Hoshi even curses at T'Pol. And in Strange New World, Trip reverts to his opinions about Vulcans, thinking in his dellusion that T'Pol is plotting against them (the humans) and trying to sabatoge the mission of Enterprise.

I think like Archer's friendship with T'Pol, Trip's isn't immediate and is hard won.

In The Expanse, a bitter Trip tells Archer that they better not follow T'Pol's "noninterference crap" she touts.

 

[Captain X]

Trip's friendship with T'Pol started in Breaking the Ice, which is all of 8 episodes into the first season. Unlike with Archer, they actually showed the friendship and trust develop between them. It wasn't until much later that we were just told that Archer and T'Pol trusted each other and considered each other to be friends.

 

[Mach5]

Trip's friendship with T'Pol started in Breaking the Ice, which is all of 8 episodes into the first season. Unlike with Archer, they actually showed the friendship and trust develop between them. It wasn't until much later that we were just told that Archer and T'Pol trusted each other and considered each other to be friends.

Hm, now that you mention this, when exactly did we have the chance to witness any entirely and profoundly personal Archer/T'pol conversations? Hell, he didn't even have the nerve to ask her about her marriage. Not even a simple "Are you okay?" And later, when Trip left Enterprise, I expected Archer to ask T'pol about Trip's sudden departure. He must have had some suspicions about why Trip really left (and he could have asked her in a subtle, non intrusive way). One would expect some inquisitiveness from close friends.

 

[Captain X]

Yeah, they weren't real good about showing things, beyond wet dreams and boob dives that is.

 

[kissthestar]

Whenever peril threatened Archer, T'Pol demonstrated, by facial expression and body language, her concern for his safety. The actors were good enough at using non-dialogue cues to overcome scripts deficiencies.

 

[Captain X]

Which doesn't really establish anything between them beyond friendship, which apparently came out of no where.

 

[Mach5]

Whenever peril threatened Archer, T'Pol demonstrated, by facial expression and body language, her concern for his safety. The actors were good enough at using non-dialogue cues to overcome scripts deficiencies.

A true and sincere friendship (especially the on-screen one) should be a lot more than just facial expressions and body language, wouldn't you agree? Imagine the Bashir/Obrien relationship consisting only of them two staring worryingly at one another. And in case you didn't find those two to be a fitting example, imagine Picard and Guinan doing the same ("Beyond friends, beyond family" - and they were all about dialogue).

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

Okay, you've had your fun, but the discussion is a comparison of Archer to TOS's Kirk and McCoy, according to the OP, not about insulting ENT ships you don't like. Kindly get back on topic. Now.