Denobulan, Vulcan and human sexuality; bonding
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I don't remember that dialogue and tried to find it online. You have that handy?
I'll bite. Then why didn't she attempt to restart a relationship with Trip when he gave her ample opportunities to do so?One could argue that T'Pol chose Trip precisely because he had feelings for her--and because she was acting on her feelings for him, as a result of her jealousy of Cole. Viewers hadn't been made aware at this point that T'Pol was taking trellium-D, and accessing emotions that were new to her. One could theorize that she wasn't prepared for the consequences of feeling those emotions, or acting on them. Somehow I don't think "Dealing With Emotions 101" is something they were teaching kids on Vulcan.
And her morning-after characterization of that night with Trip as "exploring human sexuality"? I didn't buy it. By the end of that scene, I don't think Trip bought it either, bless his heart. I think T'Pol was backpedaling to keep from admitting that she had gotten in way over her head, emotionally speaking, and didn't know how to deal with it.
Just my .02
I agree with some of what you say. I think T'Pol took trellium to try to understand the humans more and got wrapped up in Trip because he needed her and was around. I truly think one of the things T'Pol likes most is to be needed. (She usually "comes around" when people say they need her -- staying on Enterprise in Broken Bow, joining the crew to look for the Xindi, ending her addiction in Damage, etc.) I think part of the reason she started taking trellium is the lack of being needed; Archer made it *his* mission to find the Xindi, not Enterprise's mission.
And yet, I think she realized not only was she over her head, but out of emotional control -- something that she realized was a problem only when Archer said, "Hey, I need you" in Damage. It was then she sought help, and not before -- even after having a dream she tried to strangle Trip. I think there was a part of Trellium!T'Pol that enjoyed the lack of control. It made her human. But being human was an experiment, like trying mind melds with Tolaris, I think.
I do think she's close with Tucker. I'm sure you can't have neuropressure without getting wrapped up in someone. (Although the writers never let us know his emotions were passing over her or anything.) But, I never thought she was dying to have a romantic relationship with him -- only evidenced in TATV when we find out they haven't gotten back together since Harbinger.
Is it okay to talk about this? I feel like the subject is interesting, but am concerned about "the hammer" coming down on me.
T'POL: I suppose I should thank you.
TUCKER: No need to thank me.
T'POL: For facilitating my exploration of human sexuality.
TUCKER: I'm not sure I follow.
T'POL: It's one of the many aspects of your species which I've been meaning to explore since I left the High Command.
TUCKER: Sounds like you're saying last night was some kind of experiment.
T'POL: I wouldn't use that term.
TUCKER: But that's the general idea.
T'POL: Are you getting emotional?
TUCKER: No, I'm not getting emotional. I just don't like being compared to a lab rat.
T'POL: I'm sorry if I offended you.
TUCKER: Forget it. I'd appreciate it if we could keep this between us. In fact, we probably should forget it ever happened.
T'POL: Agreed.
TUCKER: Doesn't mean we can't keep doing the neuro-pressure though.
Oh no, you didn't!
Doesn't make it allrightSorry. That is a true statement though.Oh no, you didn't!
(
)(Don't wanna get into TATV again, I really don't, but since it's pretty inconceivable that every private conversation aboard a starship got recorded for historical purposes, every piece of dialogue heard in that ep is dismissible).
No need to worry. The mods have been talking, and we agree that it's time to drop the "shipper rule" restriction and free up discussion.
Yep, y'all read me right. Let's keeps things courteous and respectful and see how things go.
Hell if I know. That talk they had at the end of "Daedalus" seemed very "Hand Of Writer" to me--a contrived attempt to keep the two of them apart when there was no impediment between them, to set up the "Trip Leaves Enterprise" storyline. T'Pol could just have easily (and credibly) asked to start fresh with him, or they could have gone as far as having a full-blown romantic resolution to the "Home" thing. Structurally, both options would have worked effectively, given the setup of "Home," where their mutual affection had been established.
I got the impression in Season 3 that the T/T dynamic had been set up to be developed over time in Season 4, not derailed. My guess is that the T/T relationship arc was put on ice to make room for the big showy arcs (Spiner! Klingons! Space battles! MU!) because the staff knew the axe was about to fall. If there had been 5 seasons, or 7, I think the storyline would have had time to go in a different, perhaps more optimistic direction.
I never thought of it that way--T'Pol wanting to feel needed. It makes sense. A lot of humans think that way--they need to be needed in order to feel worthwhile. Since T'Pol is Vulcan, my guess is that she might think of it in more selfless (logical) terms...a desire to be of service, to fill a role that, in her assessment, no one else can fill.
I think T'Pol's fascination with trellium grew out of her unseemly (for Vulcans) fascination with emotion, as established in "Fusion". She would be smart enough to convince herself she was facilitating her access of emotions in order to get along better with the crew, but I could see it getting away from her without her realizing it. She's not well-versed in emotion; she doesn't know its power.
Another reason she might not have sought help until "Damage" could be that the stakes weren't that high until that moment. Sometimes you don't act until you hit rock bottom, and even then, only when you are forced, kicking and screaming, to act.
I had a different take on the Tolaris meld. I think that was T'Pol experimenting with being emotional, rather than being human. Her regard for humans in Season 1 didn't seem all that high...kind of on a par with Archer's regard for Vulcans.
Luckily, they both widened their horizons.
You know, as long as we're talking about what might've worked, I think it would've been smart for the writers -- if T/T'P was intended -- to have Trip (who met T'Les) inquire about T'Pol's mother after Kir'Shara and reach out to her that way. It would've been "natural" and established more of a relationship built on real emotion.
I thought the T/T'P relationship was doomed in season 3. It's hard for writers to make it work when they've chosen a path of sexuality rather than of emotion (as per my earlier comment). I was surprised to see they picked it up in season 4 and because of my ship tendencies happy they did so weirdly -- exactly to your point.
You had a quote in another thread that applies here. I don't think they planned anything, which is why they had a haphazzard story arc on T/T'P. If I were an excited T/T'P shipper, I'd be incredibly confused.
Agreed. I think it's what Spock felt and why he demanded -- even when his father was dying in Journey to Babel -- to remain in command.
You know, it's hard to figure out what T'Pol was thinking. I wish I could easily chalk it up to her fascination with emotion, but ... until this time she hasn't really been fascinated. Even aflter Fusion, she seems shaken as if she won't try mindmelds or anything like them for a while. And through her experience on Impulse, it's hard to believe she liked feeling extreme emotion.
Also, let's not forget Vulcans *do* feel emotion. T'Pol tells Hawkins that in Impulse. What makes them "Vulcan" is they try to surpress emotions. So, one would think T'Pol -- like in Fusion -- simply has to stop meditating to feel emotion.
I still think the trellium was to "fit in" because she wasn't needed. Besides, she told Phlox that she took the drug to improve her interactions with the crew although he believed she took the trellium for Trip (and not really to help her relations with the rest of the crew).
Since it's okay to talk about ships, I'll say this: Archer liked her just the way she was, before the drugs. And I like that. Really, it seemed like he was the only one.
I suppose! She indeed hit rock bottom when she ordered a priority to the cargo bay that held her stash as well as understanding that she was impaired while in command. The thing is, Archer didn't drag her down to Sickbay nor did he really needle her about getting help. His words were pretty simple: I need you.
I had a different take on the Tolaris meld. I think that was T'Pol experimenting with being emotional, rather than being human. Her regard for humans in Season 1 didn't seem all that high...kind of on a par with Archer's regard for Vulcans.
Exactly why I like A/T'P -- they met in the middle.
One of the things I really like about the show is that both of these characters grew in that regard.On Tolaris, you know, he asked about the jazz club and seemed to get a real kick out of what the human were doing and what went through her mind. The votosh katur (misspelled I'm sure) seemed too intrigued with the humans because of their emotions.
When I said T'Pol was turning human, I meant she was trying to fit in.
But that's exactly what he tried to do in "Daedalus," IIRC. She explicitly refused his help by claiming she didn't need it.
That didn't really sit right with me at the time. If I were Archer, T'pols outburst of anger (smashing the pad on the desk) would have seriously freaked me out. Vulcans do get emotional, sure, but her behavior was extreme. Imagine Tuvok doing that in front Janeway. No, I can't either.
There's a big difference between "You've been reading that bible of yours" approach and "I really liked your mother. I was sorry to hear about her passing." When you know a friend needs help, do you say: Hey, you need help? Or do you just help? I think the latter. Plus, that way, dramatically speaking, we know he's on her page.
Well, yeah, I definitely think there should've been a "come to Jesus meeting," but because the drug addiction plotline was killed and she admitted it to no one, hard for anyone to do anything about it. I think we agree on this one -- why put someone through hell unless to see them completely pay for it and come out on the other side okay. Huge missed opportunity. Imagine the great drama and fireworks by having T'Pol admit her drug addiction to Archer or him finding out from Phlox. Holy smokes! Imagine the heart ache and geniune angst if Trip found out that T'Pol had been dosing up when she slept with him. Whoah.
One thing about Vulcans -- not all are alike. T'Pol is not Tuvok. Although in seasons 1 through most of 3 she was more Vulcan, she's never been as austerely logical as Tuvok. In season 4, T'Pol is all over the map, so hard to tell what the heck is going on.
Hell no! Phlox would never, ever break the doctor/patient confidentiality. He was undoubtedly the most ethical person on the show, and telling anyone anything about T'pols addiction would be completely out of character.
Didn't ENT have enough angst to fill three Star Trek shows? Personally, I got sick of it long before "The Aenar."
Except of course where he went explicitly against Trip's wishes and blabbed to T'Pol about his condition in order to push neuropressure onto him.
Plus wouldn't it be more ethical to at least inform Archer that something (even if he didn't mention the addiction specifically) was wrong with a senior officer and that leaving her in charge might not be the best idea for the near future at least. After all he also 80 odd other lives he's also ethically and morally obliged to look out for as well.
The whole idea behind neuropressure never made any real sense to me. Trip's problem was psychological in nature, and could have been dealt with traditionally, by talking, not by the means of erotic massage.
Absolutely not! T'pol came to Phlox, admitted she had a problem and sought help, and by doing that showed that she could still be trusted. Phlox had an obligation to respect her privacy as far as she didn't pose any serious threat to the mission and/or the crew.
No argument there. I didn't like T/T'P.
But, if the writers were indeed going to do so, it would've been smarter for them to have Trip find out in early season 4 and would've been a lot more interesting than having T'Pol married and divorced within three episodes and the other psuedo-angst they did.
I actually rather liked that pairing a lot more than most other pairings in star trek. To get this thread back on topic, I'll say that the Vulcan mating bond was actually a good idea (IMO), and it was such a shame that it hadn't been introduced earlier in the season. It would have given us a deeper insight into the Vulcan psyche.
Agreed.
Phlox first duty was to the Ship, Crew and Captain.
T-Pol as addicted and was trying to kick the habit was going through withdrawal. She wasn't fit fot command (never mind that she was a civilian, had no rank or status on Enterprise so she should not have been in command at all.) She would have been a menance. she may not have been able to withstand withdrawal and gave herself a fix then decided to try withdrawal again. she would be up and down like Yo-Yo. Spaced out one minute and having bad withdrawal symptoms the next.
Phlox should have told the Captaom that he was removing t-Pol from duty because she was overly stressed and needed a rest from her duties. No need to tell Archer that she was a druggie.
I am a ccommited Trip and t-Pol fan. I like the couple and wish that the writers and the PTB had written a romance for them without the "They are getting together" No they are not stuff.
RE T-Pol's addictin. It was mentioned in E2 when the old T-Pol told the young T-Pol that she would never be totally free of the addiction but that there ws one person on the Enterprise who could and would help her with it, Trip.
T-Pol as addicted and was trying to kick the habit was going through withdrawal. She wasn't fit fot command (never mind that she was a civilian, had no rank or status on Enterprise so she should not have been in command at all.) She would have been a menance. she may not have been able to withstand withdrawal and gave herself a fix then decided to try withdrawal again. she would be up and down like Yo-Yo. Spaced out one minute and having bad withdrawal symptoms the next.
Phlox should have told the Captaom that he was removing t-Pol from duty because she was overly stressed and needed a rest from her duties. No need to tell Archer that she was a druggie.
I am a ccommited Trip and t-Pol fan. I like the couple and wish that the writers and the PTB had written a romance for them without the "They are getting together" No they are not stuff.
RE T-Pol's addictin. It was mentioned in E2 when the old T-Pol told the young T-Pol that she would never be totally free of the addiction but that there ws one person on the Enterprise who could and would help her with it, Trip.
Absolutely, he could have came up with a number of excuses to temporarily relieve her of duty, had he considered her a liability.
IIRC, Many Coto intended to end that "will they/wont they" mumbo jumbo with the Vulcan mating bond. He said something about "Bound" being the episode which establishes that Trip & T'pol belong together, but I'm not sure that that's exactly what it did.
I'm a committed Archer/T'Pol fan and I wish they had just decided to either go with a real romance (or nothing at all
) with Trip and T'Pol!The back and forth will they/won't they thing was very frustrating to watch. Instead of writing a compelling story it ended up coming across to me most of the time as being not out of place on a bad soap opera. I have Days of Our Lives for that, I didn't need to see that kind of thing on Enterprise!
Similtude had a good scene between T'Pol and Sim that I fully admit as an A/T'Per could have been the beginning of a great story for Trip and T'Pol... instead they went the Harbinger route. Bah!
Whoa, talk about opening up the floodgates!
Looking back on the whole T/T relationship arc with the wisdom of hindsight, it had tremendous potential. The writers got it right some of the time, which showed they could have made it work. "Breaking the Ice," "Similitude," "The Forgotten," and "Terra Prime" have scenes that are just sublime for me.
But the relationship as a whole...Someone upthread mentioned "high expectations." I would see a lovely T/T scene and hope for more of the same. We all know about Sarek and Amanda. I wanted to see how another human and Vulcan, in an earlier, more volatile time, figured out how to make a relationship work. We got hints, in fits and starts. We even got a Vulcan bond, though it didn't come with much of an explanation. But there was also inconsistency, and the characters acting out of character. Frustrating. I won't wish there was "all or nothing"--I'm glad for what good there was, because my imagination filled in the rest--but I wish there had been more.
Maybe TPTB were distracted/restricted by the constant threat of cancellation, or whatever UPN was telling them to put into the shows. They didn't have the luxury to plan something over seven seasons. Coto said in an interview that he was planning on developing T/T, so I think he would have done more with it, rather than the sprint to "Bound" and "Terra Prime" that we saw before the axe fell.
And I do think that T'Pol drove Archer batty at first. Let's face it, she really looked down her nose at humans, and didn't try to fit it at all, at first. They both had learning to do. To their credit, they learned. They came to respect and trust each other. I like how strong their partnership became. I didn't think of them as a potential couple, because of Archer's strong moral center and sense of ethics; I don't believe he would ever have crossed that line. But I liked watching the progression of their professional and personal relationship, since it represented such growth for both of them.
They had great moments together all through the series, but some of my favorites are from later episodes... "Damage" (the ready room scene), "Borderland," (the compass), the Vulcan arc, "Observer Effect" (you're in command), "United."
Another way to show the consequences--the writers were kind of trying that: T'Pol having trouble controlling her emotions. When I saw T'Pol's struggles in "Home," I was getting ready for a Spock-like inner battle, logic vs. emotions, T'Pol trying to come to terms with emotions she hadn't been trained to handle...I think it would have been compelling. But one mind-meld later, poof! no Pa'nar, no emotional wigouts, no more compelling inner conflict. *sigh* Too bad.
Hard, sure. Writing isn't a cakewalk. But impossible? Nah. IMHO, the writers had succeeded in bringing the characters back by the end of Season 3 to a place where they could move forward. They were communicating again, working well together again. The first few scenes in "Home," with T'Pol inviting Trip to visit Vulcan, and Trip casually teasing her, indicated a comfort level that implied the relationship might be progressing.
Looking back on the whole T/T relationship arc with the wisdom of hindsight, it had tremendous potential. The writers got it right some of the time, which showed they could have made it work. "Breaking the Ice," "Similitude," "The Forgotten," and "Terra Prime" have scenes that are just sublime for me.
But the relationship as a whole...Someone upthread mentioned "high expectations." I would see a lovely T/T scene and hope for more of the same. We all know about Sarek and Amanda. I wanted to see how another human and Vulcan, in an earlier, more volatile time, figured out how to make a relationship work. We got hints, in fits and starts. We even got a Vulcan bond, though it didn't come with much of an explanation. But there was also inconsistency, and the characters acting out of character. Frustrating. I won't wish there was "all or nothing"--I'm glad for what good there was, because my imagination filled in the rest--but I wish there had been more.
Maybe TPTB were distracted/restricted by the constant threat of cancellation, or whatever UPN was telling them to put into the shows. They didn't have the luxury to plan something over seven seasons. Coto said in an interview that he was planning on developing T/T, so I think he would have done more with it, rather than the sprint to "Bound" and "Terra Prime" that we saw before the axe fell.
To be fair, I don't remember anyone telling T'Pol, "Y'know, I'd like you if you were more emotional." I think she came up with that idea herself.
And I do think that T'Pol drove Archer batty at first.
Let's face it, she really looked down her nose at humans, and didn't try to fit it at all, at first. They both had learning to do. To their credit, they learned. They came to respect and trust each other. I like how strong their partnership became. I didn't think of them as a potential couple, because of Archer's strong moral center and sense of ethics; I don't believe he would ever have crossed that line. But I liked watching the progression of their professional and personal relationship, since it represented such growth for both of them. They had great moments together all through the series, but some of my favorites are from later episodes... "Damage" (the ready room scene), "Borderland," (the compass), the Vulcan arc, "Observer Effect" (you're in command), "United."
Hmm. Lots of ways to demonstrate the consequences of the trellium-D besides T'Pol spilling her guts to someone. For one thing, soul-baring Confessional!T'Pol would have felt OOC to me. I understand why she only told Phlox; she was ashamed. She was determined to recover on her own. And I think there was a setup for her to tell Trip at some future point ("If you want to talk, I'm all ears," and old T'Pol telling her that Trip could help her deal with her emotions), but add that to the pile of dangling plot threads that never got tied up.
Another way to show the consequences--the writers were kind of trying that: T'Pol having trouble controlling her emotions. When I saw T'Pol's struggles in "Home," I was getting ready for a Spock-like inner battle, logic vs. emotions, T'Pol trying to come to terms with emotions she hadn't been trained to handle...I think it would have been compelling. But one mind-meld later, poof! no Pa'nar, no emotional wigouts, no more compelling inner conflict. *sigh* Too bad.
That should have been a crucial turning point in their relationship, an ultimate token of trust on T'pol's part.
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