TMP / TOS Skin Detail

[Cary L. Brown]

^But I'll bet it's painted all one color, not alternating panels of azure, pea green, ghost gray and tan.

Yep... the difference in appearance are caused by the inevitable fact that no two cans of paint are ever QUITE the same color... or that some may have been painted at other times (and so some is sun-faded and weathered more than other might be) and so forth.

In general, the actual paint job of the outside of a carrier, for instance, is going to be two colors... one for "beneath the waterline" and another for "above the waterline." And even that isn't a universal rule. But they'd never... ever... paint it in "plaids."

http://www.shipcamouflage.com/warship_camouflage.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dazzle_camouflage

They experimented with that in the past... sure... but that's what it was, experimentation. But we were talking about today. Maybe my phrase shouldn't have been "never ever" and would better have been "and today, they would never, ever"...

 

[Forbin]

^But I'll bet it's painted all one color, not alternating panels of azure, pea green, ghost gray and tan.

Yep... the difference in appearance are caused by the inevitable fact that no two cans of paint are ever QUITE the same color... or that some may have been painted at other times (and so some is sun-faded and weathered more than other might be) and so forth.

In general, the actual paint job of the outside of a carrier, for instance, is going to be two colors... one for "beneath the waterline" and another for "above the waterline." And even that isn't a universal rule. But they'd never... ever... paint it in "plaids."

http://www.shipcamouflage.com/warship_camouflage.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dazzle_camouflage

http://www.inpayne.com/models/masao1.html

 

[CuttingEdge100]

I have a pretty good feeling in Star Trek times they wouldn't have enlisted men in space suits routinely crawling along the hull and painting everything...


CuttingEdge100

 

[sojourner]

Mr. Scott's Guide mentions that the reason they left the smooth, gray paint job off the refit Enterprise is that it saved thousands of tons of mass, and the designers liked the way it looked without it just fine.

Makes enough sense, I suppose.

But that's basically saying the original engineers were dumb enough to add all that unnecessary mass in the first place, isn't it? Sure makes the original designers sound like idiots!

Lol! That's the exact reason the shuttle external tank is orange these days and not white. NASA realized they could save thousands of pounds in payload by not painting it!

 

[Cary L. Brown]

I have a pretty good feeling in Star Trek times they wouldn't have enlisted men in space suits routinely crawling along the hull and painting everything...


CuttingEdge100

No, they have a full complement of Second Technicians who are there to do just that... and also to clean the nozzles on the chicken-soup dispensers.

 

[Data Holmes]

Mr. Scott's Guide mentions that the reason they left the smooth, gray paint job off the refit Enterprise is that it saved thousands of tons of mass, and the designers liked the way it looked without it just fine.

Makes enough sense, I suppose.

But that's basically saying the original engineers were dumb enough to add all that unnecessary mass in the first place, isn't it? Sure makes the original designers sound like idiots!

Lol! That's the exact reason the shuttle external tank is orange these days and not white. NASA realized they could save thousands of pounds in payload by not painting it!

You know, I was thinking the same thing myself.

 

[Forbin]

And a shuttle external tank is used for roughly 8 minutes and then thrown away forever.
A starship needs to last a little longer.

 

[CuttingEdge100]

Sojourner

Lol! That's the exact reason the shuttle external tank is orange these days and not white. NASA realized they could save thousands of pounds in payload by not painting it!

If I recall the weight savings was around 600 lbs. Regardless, you make a good point.


CuttingEdge100

 

[Forbin]

It would be a good point if the Enterprise was going to be used for roughly 8 minutes and then thrown away. Otherwise, not so much.

 

[Timo]

Well, the analogy is valid: the white paint was there on the ET due to aesthetics, and if the grey was on Kirk's ship due to aesthetics only, it deserved to go. All the more so if the ship was to sail for five years or more.

(If it was for stealth but said stealth type got outdated, again it deserved to go. If it was for thermal management, but a new onboard gadget, or uprating of the onboard gadget responsible for thermal management, made it obsolete, again it deserved to go. But it could probably be restored at any point if need be, at minimal expense - perhaps less expense than what would be saved by its temporary absence.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JuanBolio]

It would be a good point if the Enterprise was going to be used for roughly 8 minutes and then thrown away. Otherwise, not so much.

How is permanent payload less relevant than temporary payload?

 

[Cary L. Brown]

It would be a good point if the Enterprise was going to be used for roughly 8 minutes and then thrown away. Otherwise, not so much.

How is permanent payload less relevant than temporary payload?

I see his point, quite clearly.

You can cut corners on something which only has to last for a brief period of use which you would never be able to cut if you have something intended to be "durable goods."

You don't care if the shuttle booster tank lasts for six months or a year or twenty years. It only has to last long enough for one successful use, then it's trashed. If it were going to be recycled (as, if memory serves, the original design concept allowed for?) or used as the basic component of space-station construction (another idea that was tossed around), the construction of the tank would need to be significantly more robust, even at the cost of some lost payload-carrying capacity for the shuttle.

If the hardware has to last, it's going to be more robust... and thus probably more expensive (both in dollars and in weight-penalty).

 

[Timo]

But, as said, the white paint on the ET added nothing to the durability of the structure. It was there merely to make the tank look prettier.

No reason why Starfleet of the 2240s wouldn't decide to make their ships prettier by hiding the panel lines behind (utterly nonfunctional) thick grey paint. And no reason why Starfleet of the 2270s wouldn't decide that this was eminently silly, and that paint should only be applied where it served an informative purpose, in the pennants, although it could still be applied there in an aesthetically pleasing manner.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Data Holmes]

But, as said, the white paint on the ET added nothing to the durability of the structure. It was there merely to make the tank look prettier.

No reason why Starfleet of the 2240s wouldn't decide to make their ships prettier by hiding the panel lines behind (utterly nonfunctional) thick grey paint. And no reason why Starfleet of the 2270s wouldn't decide that this was eminently silly, and that paint should only be applied where it served an informative purpose, in the pennants, although it could still be applied there in an aesthetically pleasing manner.

Timo Saloniemi

You know, I wonder if it was a "war" deal...

I mean, at the time of TOS relations with the klingons was hot. By TMP it had cooled, by the time of TWOK and up until TUC it was hot again...

Perhaps it's a defensive deal...

 

[Cary L. Brown]

But, as said, the white paint on the ET added nothing to the durability of the structure. It was there merely to make the tank look prettier.

Not originally.

The earliest designs for the tank included a parachute-recovery system. And later ideas included carrying the tank into orbit for use as an element of space-station construction.

The paint was there for a reason... but the reason went away and the paint didn't 'til much later, in other words.

That's typical for this sort of thing. A design element is incorporated... the design changes (removing the need for that element) but since the original folks who implemented that feature have since moved on to different jobs, nobody thinks about this aspect of things.

It's far more common than people tend to think. Your car, the circuit boards in your computer, and your microwave oven are all probably full of elements which no longer serve any purpose...

 

[Forbin]

It would be a good point if the Enterprise was going to be used for roughly 8 minutes and then thrown away. Otherwise, not so much.

How is permanent payload less relevant than temporary payload?

Who's talking about payload? I'm talking about the whole ship! Since when is the ship itself payload?

 

[JuanBolio]

It would be a good point if the Enterprise was going to be used for roughly 8 minutes and then thrown away. Otherwise, not so much.

How is permanent payload less relevant than temporary payload?

Who's talking about payload? I'm talking about the whole ship! Since when is the ship itself payload?

Its mass you have to carry around with you. Has the same effect.

 

[Forbin]

Okay, but that's not the point I was trying to make - what I'm really talking about is protecting the surface of the item in question. The external tank doesn't need that much protecting because it gets thrown away after 8 minutes of use. On the other hand you want a starship to last a few decades out there in the harsh environment of space with its corrosive hyper-velocity dust, extreme radiation, etc.

 

[Santaman]

I could imagine painting a ship with a grey non reflective paint so it won't draw too much attention when its in standard orbit around a planet with a primitive culture or just to not have annoying reflections when entering a solar system.

 

[JuanBolio]

Okay, but that's not the point I was trying to make - what I'm really talking about is protecting the surface of the item in question. The external tank doesn't need that much protecting because it gets thrown away after 8 minutes of use. On the other hand you want a starship to last a few decades out there in the harsh environment of space with its corrosive hyper-velocity dust, extreme radiation, etc.

Fair point... but maybe by the time TMP came around they were able to incorporate the protective elements from the gray "thermocoat" into the hull plates themselves.