• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

"In some ways you're even worse than the Borg!"

Just as an aside, in "Accession" Sisko never explicitly and categorically says the Feds wouldn't accept caste systems. Instead, he says that the Bajorans might have to give up their specific caste system or extensively modify it, because Sisko finds it oppressive, at least as presented by this Akorem Laam guy.

The Federation is remarkably tolerant/spineless in this regard, really. They apparently still tolerate duels to death on Vulcan in the TNG era, and accept the Trill system of subjugating one sentient lifeform to the whims of another. There's very little indication of them impressing "human"/21st century American values on alien species or their own subcultures in the TNG era. Kirk was the herbert who sometimes told counterculture colonists ("This Side of Paradise", "Way to Eden") to return to the usual societal norms or else - Picard or Sisko never did that sort of stuff.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Just as an aside, in "Accession" Sisko never explicitly and categorically says the Feds wouldn't accept caste systems. Instead, he says that the Bajorans might have to give up their specific caste system or extensively modify it, because Sisko finds it oppressive, at least as presented by this Akorem Laam guy.

I don't see it that way - how different from other caste systems could Bajor's d'jarras possibly have been? Castes are castes, after all, and are inherently oppressive anyway. (You saw what happened on DS9 when they started to come back, after all; people were being *killed* for not following their d'jarras.) IMHO, the Federation is right to forbid them.
 
But it DOES mean giving up that caste system you liked so much- but you those planets do it of their own will- which is not true assimilation.
When has a single planet been asked to give up their caste system?

Bajor.

Remember when the poet from 200 years ago, came back and claimed to be the Emissary? He wanted to bring back Bajor's caste system (which it had abolished during the Cardassian occupation). That would have made Bajor ineligible for Federation membership.

And a Caste system is essentially akin to slavery, which is illegal in the Federation.
 
We are the United Federation of Planets.

You can make an application to be assimilated where your biological and technological distinctiveness will be added to our own.

Your culture will adapt to service us.

Resistance is futile. Just ask the Ba'ku.
 
Resistance is futile. Just ask the Ba'ku.

I don't blame the entire Federation for that. It seems clear that what happened with the Ba'ku was Section 31, nothing more. I know it was never stated outright, but Admiral Dougherty's actions practically had Section 31 written all over it. And in the novels, I believe Dougherty *is* linked to that group.
 
It's perfectly fair to say that the Federation has some culturally imperialist tendencies -- after all, their goal is, quite explicitly, to incorporate all sentient species into their society and to spread their values to everyone else.

It is also, however, perfectly fair to note that the Federation seeks to do this with the ACTIVE CONSENT of every other society and that they aren't out to use force or coercion. It also also fair that the values they seek to spread are a great deal more libertarian than the Borg's.
 
Eddington's comment also kind of reminded me of how in real life (or rather in the media), whenever someone wants to attack something for being oppressive (or for just cramping their style), they compare something to the Nazis or compare someone they intensely dislike to Adolf Hitler. And as liberal a person as I am, I often find it embarrassing when these kinds of comments are made by people of an extreme leftist stripe. Not to mention that it devalues genuine anti-fascist sentiment, numbing people and making them insensitive to things which are truly evil and fascistic.
It's sort of like saying "Saddam...9/11....Sadaam Sadaam....9/11....9/11.....Sadaam." The association is there, draw your own conclusions.
 
When I hear assocciations, say like "you're just like the Borg" or in real life, comparisons made to Hitler, I am reminded of Jon Stewart (mind you maybe saying Borg is akin to saying Nazis, not Hitler- but still):
And the Hitlers keep on coming. Yes, Adolf Hitler, one of the worst mass-murders in all of history, has become the go-to metaphor and comparison for anyone you have a minor disagreement with.
…Here’s my point. When you compare people to Hitler, enh, you lose a little credibility.

…[P]lease stop calling people Hitler when you disagree with them. It demeans you, it demeans your opponent, and to be honest, it demeans Hitler. That guy worked too many years, too hard, to be that evil to have any Tom, Dick and Harry come along and say “Hey, you’re being Hitler.” No–You know who was Hitler? HITLER!
 
in real life (or rather in the media), whenever someone wants to attack something for being oppressive (or for just cramping their style), they compare something to the Nazis or compare someone they intensely dislike to Adolf Hitler. And as liberal a person as I am, I often find it embarrassing when these kinds of comments are made by people of an extreme leftist stripe. Not to mention that it devalues genuine anti-fascist sentiment, numbing people and making them insensitive to things which are truly evil and fascistic.
In the Killing Game episode Tom Paris compared the NAZIs to the Borg.

But look at the history of the last 500 years. Haven't Europeans been the Borg of planet Earth?


We are Euroborg.

You will be assimilated.

LocutusOfBorg.jpg


Resistance is Futile! :eek:

psik
 
The Feds have some tall explaining to do.

1. Kirk for one sure stomped on people. Eminiar and Vindicar come to mind.
2. Picard wanted to stomp Borg flat, and he just about rolled over anybody who wasn't strong enough to resist him or the Federation. He also has some questionable international law crimes of his own for which to answer-such as meddling in the internal affairs of the Klingon Empire.
3. Sisko poisoned the planet as mentioned. (That is a warcrime by the way.)
4. The Feds use slave labor holograms.
5. There is a whole court martial section here in this forum dealing with Captain Janeway's various crimes.
6. Archer has his own legal problems.

The Feds may not be Borg; but they sure are criminal imperialists and they are aggressive colonialist oppressors under our modern lawes.........
 
Oh yeah, THAT excuses it. Sisko seriously should've been put on trial for what he did. Or did he cover that one up???
 
2. Picard wanted to stomp Borg flat, and he just about rolled over anybody who wasn't strong enough to resist him or the Federation. He also has some questionable international law crimes of his own for which to answer-such as meddling in the internal affairs of the Klingon Empire.

Hardly. Picard was legally appointed Arbiter of Succession for the Chancelorship according to Klingon law. He performed his legal function, and then he let the Klingons duke it out -- until he found evidence that the Romulans were manipulating the Klingons in their civil war, at which point he alerted them that the Duras faction was getting Romulan support but did nothing else.

I'd say Picard's actions with regards to the Klingon Empire are completely respectful of Klingon sovereignty and tradition.
 
2. Picard wanted to stomp Borg flat, and he just about rolled over anybody who wasn't strong enough to resist him or the Federation. He also has some questionable international law crimes of his own for which to answer-such as meddling in the internal affairs of the Klingon Empire.

Hardly. Picard was legally appointed Arbiter of Succession for the Chancelorship according to Klingon law. He performed his legal function, and then he let the Klingons duke it out -- until he found evidence that the Romulans were manipulating the Klingons in their civil war, at which point he alerted them that the Duras faction was getting Romulan support but did nothing else.

I'd say Picard's actions with regards to the Klingon Empire are completely respectful of Klingon sovereignty and tradition.

Oh, diplomacy rather than war. Who would have thought that, one day, that would be considered "meddling?"
 
, didnt the maquis originally form because the cardassians were beating up citizens in the streets at random ? doing violence to drive them out or kill them ? it seems to me they have a right to defend themselves . if i remeber correctly they didnt attack the federation until the federation got involved .

its kind of like , a child is at school and he is acting up and is rightfully punished by the teacher and then the parents call up the principal and then the poor teacher is left being attacked on both sides . parents on one side and the principal on the other .
 
I have to admit I am outright surprised and dismayed at the degree of cynicism and contempt towards the Federation voiced by many of the postings in this thread. Seriously, comparing the Federation to the Borg, are you out of your minds? :wtf:

The Federation is the most liberal, tolerant and free society that humanity has ever had a part in. In no way does the Federation endeavour to subjugate or even incorporate all other sentient races or any race for that matter. Only the races that explicitly wish to join are considered. Those that wish to be left alone are protected by the PRIME DIRECTIVE. Surely you guys have heard of this law?

Those that do want to join have to meet certain criteria, such as democracy, civil liberties global peace etc. This is necessary for forming common grounds to enable a federal government to function on the basis of equity and equality and is hardly evidence of cultural imperialism.

Exceptions to this only prove the rule. Some people have brought up the Ba’ku incident. If you paid any attention to Insurrection then it should have been clear that this was more of a rouge operation than anything else and once all the facts where revealed to the Federation Council it was stopped immediately. Also the existence of Section 31 does not prove that the Federation is malevolent. This is clearly not an official organisation, but a bunch of criminals who believe to be above the laws of the Federation.

The Federation endeavours to be the most ethical, humane and decent government it can be, a fact that is clearly enshrined in its institutions such as Starfleet and the Council. To suggest some sinister, covert-hegemonial counter-agendum simply does not fit the facts. It rather sounds like one of those crazy conspiracy theories by people who believe that power is always abused, regardless of the laws and institutions that it is based on.

Some of the more thoughtful criticisms here have accused the Federation of being elitist and classist. To this I can say that when taken from today’s perspective that might be true.

However, the Federation is the closest thing to a classless, yet free society as you will ever get. Everyone has a high degree of education. A very large amount of the population goes to university or receives training of an equivalent level. In addition, there is no stratification through wealth. Therefore, there is no underclass or working class or upper class for that matter (if you exclude cultural singularities like joined Trills).

There will be a large group of people who probably don’t work or work in areas that do not directly advance society like science, medicine or being in Starfleet. But these people do so because they chose to, like Sisko’s dad. At no point do we see that they are treated with disregard. If anything Sisko’s father seemed to be a highly respected member of the community.

In all honesty there is nothing insidious or corrupt about the Federation. That’s the whole point about it. Does this mean it is capable of pleasing everyone? The answer is, of course not. Life doesn’t work that way. Just because you are decent and honest and want the best for everyone doesn’t mean you can put everything to right.

This, however, is no moral justification for people like the Marquis. Sure, it was a less than optimal situation and clearly the Federation wasn’t happy with it. However, peace is seldom free. The fact that the Federation was willing to make sacrifices for this shows their good intent.

The colonists were given every chance of moving to safety and every warning of what would happen if they didn’t. Furthermore, the Federation was willing to assist them in any way possible to build a new life on different planets. They refused and then formed a terrorist group when things didn’t turn out the way they wanted. These people are murders and traitors. The response they eventually received from the Federation is hardly a sign of totalitarianism.
 
Also the existence of Section 31 does not prove that the Federation is malevolent. This is clearly not an official organisation, but a bunch of criminals who believe to be above the laws of the Federation.

No. They get their "powers" from an article in the Federation charter. They are as much an official part of Starfleet as the engineering corp are. Starfleet admirals work with them. Starfleet medical covers up their acts. When they try to commit genocide Starfleet "condems" them but are pretty happy with the result. At least the Romulans acknowledge that the Tal'Shiar are a part of them. The Federation as Odo said look the other way when they want the dirty work done.

At no point do we see that they are treated with disregard. If anything Sisko’s father seemed to be a highly respected member of the community.

Sure until he's forced to take a blood test because he's related to someone in Starfleet.
 
No. They get their "powers" from an article in the Federation charter. They are as much an official part of Starfleet as the engineering corp are.

That's pretty much the same as saying that Montana hillbilly militias are as much an official part of the US Army as the engineering corps are, because they get their "powers" from the Second Amendment.

Starfleet admirals work with them. Starfleet medical covers up their acts.

Now that holds water a little bit better. Doesn't make any of this "official", though. And isn't it nice that people doing dirty tricks in Starfleet have to do it secretly, when people doing dirty tricks in the Klingon or Romulan or Cardassian militaries do it openly, and get medals and mausoleums for it?

Timo Saloniemi
 
No. They get their "powers" from an article in the Federation charter. They are as much an official part of Starfleet as the engineering corp are. Starfleet admirals work with them. Starfleet medical covers up their acts. When they try to commit genocide Starfleet "condems" them but are pretty happy with the result. At least the Romulans acknowledge that the Tal'Shiar are a part of them. The Federation as Odo said look the other way when they want the dirty work done.

I disagree with this assessment. From what I gather, Article 14, Section 31, of the Articles of the United Federation of Planets states (something to the effect of) that under excruciating circumstances certain laws may be interpreted more freely than under normal conditions. To me this means that the constitution allows for extra statutory measures during times of severe crisis. In addition, these probably have to be granted by the Federation Council and have a time limit. This is a legal measure we find in many current democracies and it makes a lot of sense with regard to self-preservation.

This hardly makes people like Sloan legit. The Admirals that aided and abetted his actions are therefore guilty of criminal acts. William Ross as a result of his actions in Inter Arma becomes a highly ambiguous character because of the personal choices he made in that episode. In no way does this incriminate the Federation.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top