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The E-D was built on the ground, don't see why The 1701 couldn't

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The forty years between TOS and now should allow for a little "wiggle room" in how the future is portrayed. Dogmatic clutching to one set version of "predicted" events is , well, dogmatic clutching.

I agree with this. To paraphrase F. Scott Fitzgerald, the Enterprise may be founded on Earth or on orbit, but after a certain point I don't care what it's founded on.

There's something to be said for the view that enough wrong details can signify larger problems with a film, but I submit that if there is so little going on in this movie that the circumstances of the construction of the Enterprise take up more than a couple of minutes of screen time, it will be entirely moot, because by that point we'll all be dead asleep.
 
But why do we even need "wiggle room"? Surely Kurtzman & Orci - as self-proclaimed fans of TOS - would have read TMoST and Gene Roddenberry's Bible many times before being offered this writing gig. How on (or off) Earth can honoring The Great Bird's stated intentions regarding the genesis of the NCC-1701 cramp their story options to such an extent that they have been left with no choice but to junk a key element of the technical mythology?

TGT
 
I am personally inclined to rationalize it away by proclaiming that the Enterprise was one of the last starships which had its "unit components" fabricated on the surface, as Starfleet was by that point well into transitioning all of its heavy industry into orbit.

TGT

I see we agree on yet another idea. :techman:

On another note, welcome back, TGT. The God Cult patiently awaits for your orders. :devil:
 
I have faith that the Trek XI production team have come up with highly creative ways to maintain continuity with established trek lore while providing a fresh perspective on it.

May I say to "The God Thing" that while I may differ with you on some points in this thread, your intention to "keep the flame" of TOS burning in the purist form is to be greatly admired. Seeing this devotion to Gene's legacy in so many fans has surely helped keep JJ and co. honest. I hope we will all be pleasantly surprised next May.
 
But why do we even need "wiggle room"? Surely Kurtzman & Orci - as self-proclaimed fans of TOS - would have read TMoST and Gene Roddenberry's Bible many times before being offered this writing gig. How on (or off) Earth can honoring The Great Bird's stated intentions regarding the genesis of the NCC-1701 cramp their story options to such an extent that they have been left with no choice but to junk a key element of the technical mythology?

TGT

Allow me to add that this element probably came from the mind of one of the many SF writers or aerospace experts GR consulted as he shaped the concept. One problem I have with Modern Trek and much of what passes for media science fiction these days (like, say, Transformers) is how divorced ir is from literary SF and science itself.
 
But why do we even need "wiggle room"? Surely Kurtzman & Orci - as self-proclaimed fans of TOS - would have read TMoST and Gene Roddenberry's Bible many times before being offered this writing gig. How on (or off) Earth can honoring The Great Bird's stated intentions regarding the genesis of the NCC-1701 cramp their story options to such an extent that they have been left with no choice but to junk a key element of the technical mythology?

TGT

Well, there are fans of the show, and then there are people who buy Star Trek technical bibles. Not everyone is interested in the pseudo-science of the future. It doesn't mean they aren't fans of the show if they are not also obsessed with How The Tech Works. Star Trek is not defined by its behind-the-scenes commentary.

Also, keep in mind that we still do not know if this issue will even come up in the movie, or if the trailer was just being used to sell the movie.

A trailer being used to sell the movie, you say? How very odd.
 
...Also, keep in mind that we still do not know if this issue will even come up in the movie, or if the trailer was just being used to sell the movie...

C'mon...teaser trailers are ALWAYS literal representations of the film.

Don't you remember the teaser trailer for First Contact: it showed a Borg ship that -- as the camera panned back -- was revealed to be in the shape of a Starfleet Delta Logo...

...Then, don't you remember in the actual film where the Borg were zipping around space in a ship shaped like the Delta logo? :rolleyes:
 
...Also, keep in mind that we still do not know if this issue will even come up in the movie, or if the trailer was just being used to sell the movie...

C'mon...teaser trailers are ALWAYS literal representations of the film.

Don't you remember the teaser trailer for First Contact: it showed a Borg ship that -- as the camera panned back -- was revealed to be in the shape of a Starfleet Delta Logo...

...Then, don't you remember in the actual film where the Borg were zipping around space in a ship shaped like the Delta logo? :rolleyes:

So you're saying the trailer could be some sort of... metaphorical representation of the film itself being "under construction"? Wow. That thought never crossed my mind.
 
...Also, keep in mind that we still do not know if this issue will even come up in the movie, or if the trailer was just being used to sell the movie...

C'mon...teaser trailers are ALWAYS literal representations of the film.

Don't you remember the teaser trailer for First Contact: it showed a Borg ship that -- as the camera panned back -- was revealed to be in the shape of a Starfleet Delta Logo...

...Then, don't you remember in the actual film where the Borg were zipping around space in a ship shaped like the Delta logo? :rolleyes:

And remember that part in Insurrection where Federation ships are firing on the Enterprise-D?
 
A lot of us had no problem with seeing this trailer as a metaphor. I t was when Orci began to suggest that it may not be such that the debate began--this thread because RAMA was defending the idea that the ship was built on the ground as seen in the trailer.
 
A lot of us had no problem with seeing this trailer as a metaphor. I t was when Orci began to suggest that it may not be such that the debate began--this thread because RAMA was defending the idea that the ship was built on the ground as seen in the trailer.

Yeah. Because amongst Warp-drive, matter-to-energy-to-matter transportation, food-replicators, artificial gravity... building a starship on the Earth is the most impossible of all.
 
A lot of us had no problem with seeing this trailer as a metaphor. I t was when Orci began to suggest that it may not be such that the debate began--this thread because RAMA was defending the idea that the ship was built on the ground as seen in the trailer.

Yeah. Because amongst Warp-drive, matter-to-energy-to-matter transportation, food-replicators, artificial gravity... building a starship on the Earth is the most impossible of all.

And here we go again...:rolleyes:
 
I see we agree on yet another idea. :techman:

Great minds... ;)

On another note, welcome back, TGT. The God Cult patiently awaits for your orders. :devil:

Must you even ask, my loyal minion? Tribute is to be paid in the form of cash (€ and ¥ only please), comely women and heretofore undiscovered TOS/TGT/Phase II/TMP scripts, production documentation and artwork. Now go, and let nothing and nobody stand in your way! Oh, unfortunately I am going to have to trim your cut of the proceeds from 2% to 1.5% due to the present economic situation. I am sure you understand. :)

May I say to "The God Thing" that while I may differ with you on some points in this thread, your intention to "keep the flame" of TOS burning in the purist form is to be greatly admired.

Thanky!

Seeing this devotion to Gene's legacy in so many fans has surely helped keep JJ and co. honest. I hope we will all be pleasantly surprised next May.

They have consistently failed since 1982 AFAIAC, so the chances of Abrams et al succeeding in my eyes are absolutely non-existent.

Allow me to add that this element probably came from the mind of one of the many SF writers or aerospace experts GR consulted as he shaped the concept. One problem I have with Modern Trek and much of what passes for media science fiction these days (like, say, Transformers) is how divorced ir is from literary SF and science itself.

Which is why I so deeply regret the loss of a Gene Roddenberry-produced Phase II, particularly as a direct followup to TMP. Considering the crap that was being unloaded on an unsuspecting public circa 1980 (Galactica: 1980 and Buck Rogers in the 25th Century being two notable examples :rolleyes:), the very thought that we could have instead been basking in the GR-focused light of heavyweight LitSF and mainstream writers on the order of Norman Spinrad, Theodore Sturgeon, Jerome Bixby and Richard Bach drives me to tears. But nooooooo, we had to get Harve "The Powers of Matthew Starr" Bennett instead...

Well, there are fans of the show, and then there are people who buy Star Trek technical bibles. Not everyone is interested in the pseudo-science of the future. It doesn't mean they aren't fans of the show if they are not also obsessed with How The Tech Works. Star Trek is not defined by its behind-the-scenes commentary.

Sure, and for those who don't care about the imaginary tech it doesn't make the slightest difference as to how the Enterprise is assembled and launched so why not stick to GR's intentions as a throw-away gesture to the few of us who do care?

Yeah. Because amongst Warp-drive, matter-to-energy-to-matter transportation, food-replicators, artificial gravity... building a starship on the Earth is the most impossible of all.

No, but Earth's orbital infrastructure would have been built up over centuries like a "Cosmic Coral Reef" (JvP) to support Solar System exploration and colonization when anti-gravity technology didn't exist or was still confined to the laboratory (indeeds, Probert's drydock structure was supposed to be at least a hundred years old by the time of TMP), so what would possibly give Starfleet cause to suddenly ignore such a literally astronomical technological capital investment in the 23rd century? BTW, kindly recall that GR conceived of 23rd century Earth as an idyllic, clothing-optional ecological reserve where people live in Paolo Soleri-inspired "Subterra Cities" in order to maximize the transcendent societal stimulus of the "Urban Effect" while also minimizing negative impact upon on the biosphere. I mean, seriously, why ruin it with a dirty and dangerous starship manufacturing industry?

TGT
 
... Probert's drydock structure was supposed to be at least a hundred years old by the time of TMP), so what would possibly give Starfleet cause to suddenly ignore such a literally astronomical technological capital investment in the 23rd century

I know that particular structure has been referred to as a "drydock", but a drydock analogue in space (to me, at least) would be a pressurized, breathable environment. That dock in TMP was simply that -- a dock. We have no onscreen indication that the refit work on the Enterprise was performed in that particular dock -- especially considering that the refit was complete, and thus the ship would probably have been removed already from the place the refit was done...like I said, that was simply a dock.

I'm not saying that the refit was done on the ground, but I don't think it was done in that particular spacedock. That dock didn't seem like it had the proper infrastructure to perform such a radical refit.

Plus, I don't believe they ever said onscreen that the spacedock was over a hundred years old. I don't care what the designer's (or writer's or director's) intentions were -- I'm sure the designer had a variety of ideas that never made it onto the screen.
 
I know that particular structure has been referred to as a "drydock", but a drydock analogue in space (to me, at least) would be a pressurized, breathable environment. That dock in TMP was simply that -- a dock. We have no onscreen indication that the refit work on the Enterprise was performed in that particular dock -- especially considering that the refit was complete, and thus the ship would probably have been removed already from the place the refit was done...like I said, that was simply a dock.

It says "dry dock" on the structure in this screencap, hence my use of the term.

I'm not saying that the refit was done on the ground, but I don't think it was done in that particular spacedock. That dock didn't seem like it had the proper infrastructure to perform such a radical refit.

As stated upthread the parts for the refit would have been received and fabricated over at the space office complex and then transferred via Workbee to the dock for final assembly.

Plus, I don't believe they ever said onscreen that the spacedock was over a hundred years old.

Under what conceivable circumstances would they have?

I don't care what the designer's (or writer's or director's) intentions were -- I'm sure the designer had a variety of ideas that never made it onto the screen.

Painting the drydock miniature a dark brownish color to indicate corrosion caused by over a century's worth of exposure to atomic oxygen and countless radiation events was pretty much the only way for the filmmakers to advertise their intentions to the comparative handful of fans who are actually interested in the subject of speculative astronautics.

TGT
 
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^
^^I was wrong about the use of the term "Drydock" by the TMP creative team (although I still don't agree with their use of the term), but I still don't see any onscreen evidenece that the drydock had been there for over a hundred years -- and thus was there when the original Enterprise was constructed -- or if the TMP Enterprise refit happened there.

Yeah, your explanation about the space office complex and Workbees makes sense -- and is a valid 'fanon' explanation with which I can agree. However, if tomorrow a filmmaker decides to make a movie about the conversion of the Enterprise into the Enterprise A, he would have free reign to create a totally separate construction dock than the faciliies we saw onscreen in TMP -- and still not violate canon, i.e., onscreen TMP never overtly indicated that the dock we saw was the assembly dock. The new on screen canon would trump the fanon.

I'm just saying there are certain 'fanon ideas' concerning the construction of the original Enterprise that the makers of this new film can change. Conversely, if this film never addresses how the Enterprise was built, then that fanon is certainly still valid.

...and by the way -- I have a basic interest in speculative astronautics, but I'm not going to base my enjoyment of this film upon whether or not the filmmakers satisfied that interest -- that is I don't go to the movies to see what others think about the future of astronautics. There are plenty of other resources to fulfill that need. I'm sure that the science content that Carolyn Porco, for example, adds to this film can be found elsewhere.

I like to see speculation of future technologies and discoveries in films, but they only need to be basically believable, such as the case with TOS. There are plenty of real-world problems with TOS's stated technologies, but that's OK...it works within the confines of the TV show and Star Trek universe.
 
^
I was wrong about the use of the term "Drydock" by the TMP creative team (although I still don't agree with their use of the term), but I still don't see any onscreen evidenece that the drydock had been there for over a hundred years -- and thus was there when the original Enterprise was constructed -- or if the TMP Enterprise refit happened there.

Moving the NCC-1701 in its various states of disassembly from one facility to the other while undergoing refitting strikes me as being somewhat inefficient.

Yeah, your explanation about the space office complex and Workbees makes sense -- and is a valid 'fanon' explanation with which I can agree. However, if tomorrow a filmmaker decides to make a movie about the conversion of the Enterprise into the Enterprise A, he would have free reign to create a totally separate construction dock than the faciliies we saw onscreen in TMP -- and still not violate canon, i.e., onscreen TMP never overtly indicated that the dock we saw was the assembly dock. The new on screen canon would trump the fanon.

Why are you calling it "fanon"? Andrew Probert, the film's production illustrator who consulted extensively with Gene Roddenberry when designing the drydock and space office complex, made his reasoning perfectly clear on his official website. Hell, the SOC supplying parts for the manufacturing and refitting of drydocked spacecraft was obvious even to me when I first saw the film as an eight year old back in 1979.

I'm just saying there are certain 'fanon ideas' concerning the construction of the original Enterprise that the makers of this new film can change. Conversely, if this film never addresses how the Enterprise was built, then that fanon is certainly still valid.

Again with the "fanon"...

...and by the way -- I have a basic interest in speculative astronautics, but I'm not going to base my enjoyment of this film upon whether or not the filmmakers satisfied that interest -- that is I don't go to the movies to see what others think about the future of astronautics.

Neither do I, but I do appreciate it when the filmmakers at least make an effort to generate a sense of - if not realism - then at least verisimilitude.

There are plenty of other resources to fulfill that need. I'm sure that the science content that Carolyn Porco, for example, adds to this film can be found elsewhere.

ST:TWOK and ST:TSFS had astronomer Richad Green credited as scientific advisor, and the latter degenerated into a cabalistic resurrection fantasy. In any event, I have noticed that engineers generally appear to make better technical advisors for sci-fi films than astronomers, but that is a subject for another thread.

I like to see speculation of future technologies and discoveries in films, but they only need to be basically believable, such as the case with TOS. There are plenty of real-world problems with TOS's stated technologies, but that's OK...it works within the confines of the TV show and Star Trek universe.

I think Gene Roddenberry along with his various designers and advisors did a perfectly good job in that regard, and Abrams, Kurtzman and Orci would lose absolutely nothing by depicting these "fanon assumptions" on screen should the subject come up in their film.

TGT
 
Sure, and for those who don't care about the imaginary tech it doesn't make the slightest difference as to how the Enterprise is assembled and launched so why not stick to GR's intentions as a throw-away gesture to the few of us who do care?

If, IF they don't, it's because they thought up something they think will appeal more to a larger audience. In other words, something cooler. Or because the plot requires it for some reason.
 
Sure, and for those who don't care about the imaginary tech it doesn't make the slightest difference as to how the Enterprise is assembled and launched so why not stick to GR's intentions as a throw-away gesture to the few of us who do care?

If, IF they don't, it's because they thought up something they think will appeal more to a larger audience. In other words, something cooler.

And so now we're back round to the 'make it more like STAR WARS' argument.

Circle-jerk to enterprise, beam me THE HELL outahere.
 
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