Just how bad is Janeway, Captain wise?

[unimatrix7]

If you are going to defend Janeway's acts in law, then you need to do so from a solid legal base.

I doubt that the second worst Federation Captain as seen on film can be defended successfully at all due to her many serious criimes we see her commit, but I have little doubt that she acted in a criminal fashion in this specific case and on it alone, she is subject to legal sanctions up to and including imprisonment..

Dude, it's a sci-fi TV show. You can't provide links to documents espousing US law, talk about a 'solid legal base,' then try and apply them to Janeway as the captain of a starship owned by a fictional futuristic utopia.

Well you can, but you'd look a bit silly. Also, nobody cares that much.

 

[bintak]

If you are going to defend Janeway's acts in law, then you need to do so from a solid legal base.

I doubt that the second worst Federation Captain as seen on film can be defended successfully at all due to her many serious criimes we see her commit, but I have little doubt that she acted in a criminal fashion in this specific case and on it alone, she is subject to legal sanctions up to and including imprisonment..

Dude, it's a sci-fi TV show. You can't provide links to documents espousing US law, talk about a 'solid legal base,' then try and apply them to Janeway as the captain of a starship owned by a fictional futuristic utopia.

Well you can, but you'd look a bit silly. Also, nobody cares that much.

I didn't know that Hammurabi was an American.^1

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/hamcode.html

As for silly.........Past is prologue. One can't really unlink from Human evolution, cultural or physical, and then claim that the legal system is anymore Human or that it has a legal or moral basis .

One is of course entitled to an opinion: but it should be one based on good logic and sound reasoning. So far? NSBE specifically here as in not sustained by evidence.

 

[bintak]

I realize that you think that your numerous posts might make you qualified to bring some admonition to me, but you need to realize that you aren't in a position to assess my qualifications, or to rank the basis for my opinion. You don't know me.

Which part of everyone is entitled to their opinion are you not comprehending?

If you express an opinion, can you defend it? I submitted an opinion. Elsewhere I was challenged to defend "my idiotic assertion" when I commented here:

http://trekbbs.com/showthread.php?p=2145358&posted=1#post2145358

Friendly?

Post number has nothing to do with it. Any poster who has their name in green is a board moderator and those in gold are admins. with an interest in keeping the board a place that is comfortable for everyone to post in. Anyone, board mod/admin or not is free to disagree with you.

Of course you can: I wouldn't expect you not to disagree if you disagreed. Just don't assume I'll roll over and let a comment pass about a Star Trek event, when I have an honest difference of opinion to the poster and wish to present viable evidence to support my difference of opinion.

As I read it, I was attacked, not my opinion. CREF previous post.

You can't provide links to documents espousing US law, talk about a 'solid legal base,' then try and apply them to Janeway as the captain of a starship owned by a fictional futuristic utopia.

Well you can, but you'd look a bit silly.

As I read it, the poster didn't understand earlier that I was demolishing another poster's assertion, that you could not try and convict on INTENT. You most certainly can try the accused's MOTIVE any time any place.

ST/TOS: "Court Martial" Kirk was tried as to his intent when he jettisonned the warp pod..

Janeway's motives are at issue here, in this entire thread. Intent is a chargeable offense. Violation of the PD for example. Did she intend to violate it, to secure an advantage? That is apparently chargeable under Federation law.

Once you have enough posts to pm then please feel free to contact me with questions or concerns on the Voyager forum since I'm one of the forum mods. In the meantime I suggest you read the rules under the "Announcements" forum.

I've read them. Trolling is not my intent here. Baiting is not my intent here. Honest assessment of one of Janeway's possible crimes is. I've made a legal argument that she is culpable in ONE specific action.

 

[ria 75]

Bintak, I sincerely hope that you teach law, because not only must you be effective, but using Star Trek stories as examples can be a good teaching tool - something the students will remember easily.
Although even in class, I think it shouldn't be taken to heart so much.
And doing that here, I'm afraid, is a big buzz kill. The mood is generally so much lighter than that. We try not to take ourselves and our Star Trek too seriously.
More beagles than pitbulls around here, if you catch my drift.

You're free to be who you are, but you stand out so much.

 

[unimatrix7]

Dude, it's a sci-fi TV show. You can't provide links to documents espousing US law, talk about a 'solid legal base,' then try and apply them to Janeway as the captain of a starship owned by a fictional futuristic utopia.

Well you can, but you'd look a bit silly. Also, nobody cares that much.

I didn't know that Hammurabi was an American.^1

Neither did I. But New Jersey is still an American state, isn't it? You linked a section of that state's criminal code in this post, and that's what I was referring to. I'm sure you knew that

 

[bintak]

Dude, it's a sci-fi TV show. You can't provide links to documents espousing US law, talk about a 'solid legal base,' then try and apply them to Janeway as the captain of a starship owned by a fictional futuristic utopia.

Well you can, but you'd look a bit silly. Also, nobody cares that much.

I didn't know that Hammurabi was an American.^1

Neither did I. But New Jersey is still an American state, isn't it? You linked a section of that state's criminal code in this post, and that's what I was referring to. I'm sure you knew that

Of course I did. And you now know why.

 

[LeadHead]

Wow, this conversation has taken on a less than "Happy-go-lucky" tone.

Bintak, in case nobody has done this, welcome to the forums. I like that you actually back up your assertions with facts and evidence. It gives you credibility. Sometimes that will help othertimes it won't.

Sadly, it is clear that this discussion will not have resolution. I made my case that I thought Janeway's actions were reprehensible and poked a few holes in the logic. Then I'm being told that the only reason I'm saying that Janeway's actions were bad was because I hated Janeway (Not true, although she could have been a much much better character)

Kudos for bringing facts and interesting information to the debate.

 

[ria 75]

Look who's smelling blood and making a comeback.
You two please shine down your superior, logical, educated intellect on us poor emotional beings... unfortunately we won't have the patience to read it all (especially the links).

 

[LeadHead]

Thanks, nobody's accused me of being educated in a long time.

 

[bintak]

Wow, this conversation has taken on a less than "Happy-go-lucky" tone.

Bintak, in case nobody has done this, welcome to the forums. I like that you actually back up your assertions with facts and evidence. It gives you credibility. Sometimes that will help othertimes it won't.

Sorry, went into "presentation mode."

Sadly, it is clear that this discussion will not have resolution. I made my case that I thought Janeway's actions were reprehensible and poked a few holes in the logic. Then I'm being told that the only reason I'm saying that Janeway's actions were bad was because I hated Janeway (Not true, although she could have been a much much better character)

She has her moments. "The Year of Hell" is one of the finest Trek episodes ever made, that I've seen, and that was ALL Janeway. If that was all we ever saw of her, she would rank as one of the great three Fed Captains. I could defend that assertion. But when we get "cheese"......literally?

Kudos for bringing facts and interesting information to the debate.

Thanks for the welcome.

 

[ria 75]

Thanks, nobody's accused me of being educated in a long time.

Er... I guess that was mostly for bintak. You asked for it!

If only the ability to support arguments with a lot of reference did not allow for such a fault-finding attitude... *sigh*

 

[bintak]

Thanks, nobody's accused me of being educated in a long time.

Er... I guess that was mostly for bintak. You asked for it!

If only the ability to support arguments with a lot of reference did not allow for such a fault-finding attitude... *sigh*

Just how bad is Janeway, Captain wise?

A question designed to find fault in Janeway is bound to produce a "critical" as in negative assessment.

Structurally, the argument works better if the question is more neutral.

I do not mean a question structured to read as "Rate Captain Janeway".

My suggestion would be, "Assess Captain Janeway's mission based on her performance: did she succeed?"

One would then have to argue the balance sheet of pros and cons.

One example of con would be of course the Equinox. However you look at it, Janeway's handling of that event was terrible. She managed to save some Equinox crew, but lost that ship and its data. She also refused to face the moral consequences of her actions as a torturer and attempted murderess in the torture interrogation of the Equinox crewman. One must question her judgment when it takes Chakotay to keep her from completing the act of murder.

One example of pro, I've mentioned, is her struggle against the Krenim, Annorax. One can argue that Janeway uses her peculiar science skills and good judgement to restore the timeline and maintain the temporal directive which is of greater ethical importance than the Prime Directive.

Run such a list down in open debate and then establish a poll to detemine the outcome. Let the jury decide by vote.

But its been done. Its called "The Court Martial of Captain Janeway".

http://www.treknation.com/articles/court_martial_janeway_intro.shtml

 

[ria 75]

Attenn-tion ! Litigator bintak on the bridge!

Even a fault-finding thread is supposed to include a bit of humour and distance. But I guess the humour in this forum is lost on you.
I don't know who "captain wise" is supposed to be but doesn't the phrasing of this thread suggest this is not a court martial?

Now excuse me, I have to go for coffee.

 

[bintak]

Attenn-tion ! Litigator bintak on the bridge!

Even a fault-finding thread is supposed to include a bit of humour and distance. But I guess the humour in this forum is lost on you.
I don't know who "captain wise" is supposed to be but doesn't the phrasing of this thread suggest this is not a court martial?

Now excuse me, I have to go for coffee.

"There are three things to remember about being a starship captain: keep your shirt tucked in, go down with the ship, and never abandon a member of your crew.^1"
- Captain Kathryn Janeway, 2375

^1 unless he is Neelix.

I have a sense of humor.

 

[ria 75]

Er... Hm. OK, that's a beginning. Next time, perhaps we can work on its timing.
Do you tell jokes, as well?

P.S. The fluffy plot bunny must be a pun, but it's lost on my limited knowledge of English-language popular culture.
I need an exegesis. Perhaps as a private message? (not that I want to make this a habit)

 

[bintak]

Er... Hm. OK, that's a beginning. Next time, perhaps we can work on its timing.
Do you tell jokes, as well?

Question: How many tribbles does it take to screw in a light bulb?
Answer: What is a light bulb?

P.S. The fluffy plot bunny must be a pun, but it's lost on my limited knowledge of English-language popular culture.
I need an exegesis. Perhaps as a private message? (not that I want to make this a habit)

1. Neelix is a fluffy plot bunny, a cute story idea that makes me violently ill.
2. Janeway abandoned that plot bunny at the end. Neelix never reached Earth.
3. Kate Mulgrew's acting career went down the drain with her series, so in a metaphoric sense Janeway went down with the ship.
4. There is a triple pun in there somewhere as well as some irony.

 

[AuntKate]

Not even Federation law would be in effect for Janeway's actions on Voyager, because I'm sure there would be a UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice) for people serving in Starfleet. What happened to Lessing will probably be considered a good cop, bad cop tactic by anyone who looks at it objectively. After all, only Janeway knows whether she would have let the beasties kill Lessing; Chakotay only knows that he backed down first. I'm sure the captains in other series did things just as reprehensible. I remember an episode of ENT where Archer nearly killed a man being held prisoner.

And let's put the Equinox bunch in a strong light. Not only were they premeditated murderers of a sentient race (and for their own benefit), they left Voyager and her crew as vulnerable as Equinox had been when Voyager rescued them. Instead of joining Voyager's crew, they took the new shielding that the Voyager crew had helped them design and left their rescuers to the wolves. They had to hope that Voyager and her crew were killed because otherwise they would report on their crimes (eventually) and find themselves on trial for treason. In light of that, I think Janeway's passion and antagonism are not just understandable, but justifiable.

The Equinox Janeway is always the one latched upon by those who haven't seen much of Voyager as proof of Janeway's "insanity." In fact, it was one act in thousands over a period of seven years, and one that has to be the worst possible situation for a captain charged with protecting the lives of her crew and the existence of her ship. The Year of Hell Janeway is just as valid an example of her character, as is "The Void" Janeway from the seventh season where she creates a "mini-Federation" and escapes from their predicament. That isn't to say that her character was consistently "perfect," but much of that happened when TPTB were so busy creating the "better" Enterprise. What a laugh.

Finally, Janeway was a captain under duress from the first. To expect her to be the model of propriety in her situation is expecting too much, IMHO. She does pretty well when you take her situation into account.

YMMV

 

[Jeri]

^ ^ Thank you for taking the time and effort to explain; I'm usually too lazy -- at least since the first time I heard this complaint some years ago.

 

[kimc]

I'm sure the captains in other series did things just as reprehensible. I remember an episode of ENT where Archer nearly killed a man being held prisoner.

I gave up on "Enterprise" after a few viewings but I do recall the outrage when the same fans who attacked Janeway for the Lessing incident gave Archer a pass.

 

[bintak]

Not even Federation law would be in effect for Janeway's actions on Voyager, because I'm sure there would be a UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice) for people serving in Starfleet. What happened to Lessing will probably be considered a good cop, bad cop tactic by anyone who looks at it objectively. After all, only Janeway knows whether she would have let the beasties kill Lessing; Chakotay only knows that he backed down first. I'm sure the captains in other series did things just as reprehensible. I remember an episode of ENT where Archer nearly killed a man being held prisoner.

And let's put the Equinox bunch in a strong light. Not only were they premeditated murderers of a sentient race (and for their own benefit), they left Voyager and her crew as vulnerable as Equinox had been when Voyager rescued them. Instead of joining Voyager's crew, they took the new shielding that the Voyager crew had helped them design and left their rescuers to the wolves. They had to hope that Voyager and her crew were killed because otherwise they would report on their crimes (eventually) and find themselves on trial for treason. In light of that, I think Janeway's passion and antagonism are not just understandable, but justifiable.

The Equinox Janeway is always the one latched upon by those who haven't seen much of Voyager as proof of Janeway's "insanity." In fact, it was one act in thousands over a period of seven years, and one that has to be the worst possible situation for a captain charged with protecting the lives of her crew and the existence of her ship. The Year of Hell Janeway is just as valid an example of her character, as is "The Void" Janeway from the seventh season where she creates a "mini-Federation" and escapes from their predicament. That isn't to say that her character was consistently "perfect," but much of that happened when TPTB were so busy creating the "better" Enterprise. What a laugh.

Finally, Janeway was a captain under duress from the first. To expect her to be the model of propriety in her situation is expecting too much, IMHO. She does pretty well when you take her situation into account.

YMMV

A Human who forms an attachment to a Hologram and does so TWICE as her primary emotional support companion IS crazy.

Something about losing touch with reality?