Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread
Good point, I forgot about that.
Destiny: Gods of Night by David Mack Review Thread (Spoilers!)
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread
David Mack, et al.:
Thanks for your reply WRT the alien civilization the Caeliar contacted.
Here's another question: Is it safe to assume that the Caeliar do not know of the Q or other beings such as the Organians and/or Metrons? I ask because all three of these species would seem to be, at the very least, equivalent to the Caeliar and, in Q's case, superior to them.
Yet the Caeliar speak and act as if they have no knowledge of the Q, et al. For a species that's had sentience for at least 65,000 years, I find that to be a bit odd, unless Q, et al., have deliberately avoided the Caeliar. If so, perhaps they found them to be a bit too ... stuck up? (Yeah, hard to admit, especially WRT the Q.)
Gatekeeper
David Mack, et al.:
Thanks for your reply WRT the alien civilization the Caeliar contacted.
Here's another question: Is it safe to assume that the Caeliar do not know of the Q or other beings such as the Organians and/or Metrons? I ask because all three of these species would seem to be, at the very least, equivalent to the Caeliar and, in Q's case, superior to them.
Yet the Caeliar speak and act as if they have no knowledge of the Q, et al. For a species that's had sentience for at least 65,000 years, I find that to be a bit odd, unless Q, et al., have deliberately avoided the Caeliar. If so, perhaps they found them to be a bit too ... stuck up? (Yeah, hard to admit, especially WRT the Q.)
Gatekeeper
Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread
As for the Metrons, they showed themselves in "Arena" to be as reclusive as the Caeliar. It's possible the Caeliar are unaware of the Metrons and vice-versa. Of course, considering the Metrons' willingness to pit sentient beings in mortal combat, the two cultures might be philosophically incompatible; just as the Metrons considered humans to be savage, the Caeliar might hold the Metrons in a similar degree of contempt.
It's not addressed in the trilogy; I'd presume that the Caeliar probably are aware of those cultures, but are more interested in finding one that exists on their level, as physical entities, rather than as pure energy (Organians) or extradimensional (Q). Also, the Douwd don't have a civilization so much as a few scattered individuals hiding among other cultures, the exact antithesis of Caeliar philosophy.
As for the Metrons, they showed themselves in "Arena" to be as reclusive as the Caeliar. It's possible the Caeliar are unaware of the Metrons and vice-versa. Of course, considering the Metrons' willingness to pit sentient beings in mortal combat, the two cultures might be philosophically incompatible; just as the Metrons considered humans to be savage, the Caeliar might hold the Metrons in a similar degree of contempt.
I think what the Q might have found distasteful about the Caeliar is that they seem humorless, and their reclusive nature makes them provincial and, at times, xenophobic. Despite the sophistication of their technology, the Caeliar would probably bore the Q, in my opinion.
Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread
^ If only this board had an emoticon for "WHACK!"
^ If only this board had an emoticon for "WHACK!"
Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread
Really enjoyed the novel and it's going to be hard to wait for the next one. That all being said, I would like to ask about Dax's promotion.
In a story sense, I have no problem with a Captain Dax. I've always liked Ezri, and it looks like we'll get to see her center stage for a couple more books at least. Good.
My issue is that I just can't see Starfleet giving her command at this point. There would almost HAVE to be officers in line for their own ships available.
Distance didn't seem to be the issue, since Bowers and the rest were able to join the ship after her promotion.
I can see moving her into the XO slot, but not to the CO.
It's just an itch that needs scratched for me.
Really enjoyed the novel and it's going to be hard to wait for the next one. That all being said, I would like to ask about Dax's promotion.
In a story sense, I have no problem with a Captain Dax. I've always liked Ezri, and it looks like we'll get to see her center stage for a couple more books at least. Good.
My issue is that I just can't see Starfleet giving her command at this point. There would almost HAVE to be officers in line for their own ships available.
Distance didn't seem to be the issue, since Bowers and the rest were able to join the ship after her promotion.
I can see moving her into the XO slot, but not to the CO.
It's just an itch that needs scratched for me.
Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread
Availability is the issue. They're in the middle of a huge invasion, losing ships and personnel left and right. All those other officers have other crises to deal with, or are being killed off themselves.
Besides, the Aventine's a prototype ship, a member of a brand-new class. Pretty much the only people who'd have any experience with it are the crew already serving on it. So it makes more sense to promote from within, to give command to someone already familiar with the ship's unique capabilities.
Availability is the issue. They're in the middle of a huge invasion, losing ships and personnel left and right. All those other officers have other crises to deal with, or are being killed off themselves.
Besides, the Aventine's a prototype ship, a member of a brand-new class. Pretty much the only people who'd have any experience with it are the crew already serving on it. So it makes more sense to promote from within, to give command to someone already familiar with the ship's unique capabilities.
Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread
I would assume that Starfleet would be reactivating everyone to active duty. There would be thousands of officers being recalled during an invasion like this, all needing postings.
That's why I'd think that Dax would have been placed as the XO with a more experienced command officer, much like Decker staying on for Kirk in TMP.
I would assume that Starfleet would be reactivating everyone to active duty. There would be thousands of officers being recalled during an invasion like this, all needing postings.
That's why I'd think that Dax would have been placed as the XO with a more experienced command officer, much like Decker staying on for Kirk in TMP.
Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread
Look... Ezri or not, we're talking about Dax. She's got over a decade of Starfleet experience and three centuries of overall experience. I don't understand this idea that she's somehow unqualified to command.
I also don't understand the complaints about her rapid rise in rank. Yes, she went from an ensign in early 2375 to a captain in early 2381, six years later. But Will Riker was an ensign in 2358 and possibly even later, and he was offered his first shot at a captaincy in 2364. That's six years at most. If it's acceptable for Riker, why is it not acceptable for Ezri Dax?
Look... Ezri or not, we're talking about Dax. She's got over a decade of Starfleet experience and three centuries of overall experience. I don't understand this idea that she's somehow unqualified to command.
I also don't understand the complaints about her rapid rise in rank. Yes, she went from an ensign in early 2375 to a captain in early 2381, six years later. But Will Riker was an ensign in 2358 and possibly even later, and he was offered his first shot at a captaincy in 2364. That's six years at most. If it's acceptable for Riker, why is it not acceptable for Ezri Dax?
Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread
I'm not saying she isn't qualified for command, I'm saying that there are others MORE qualified. Especially in a time of war.
Listen, if this was because they couldn't get any help out to the ship, I'd be 100% fine with this. If Bowers and everyone were already members of the crew, we're good. I just can't see Starfleet giving one of it's most advanced anti-Borg ships to a Lt Cmdr in a time of Borg invasion when there's bound to be other officers more qualified and available.
And like I said, it's not going to make me like this series any less.
Just because Riker was offered a command, doesn't mean he was going to be promoted to Captain.
I don't remember if it said in the novel or not, is Ezri's rank a Brevet, like Riker's in The Best of Both Worlds?
I'm not saying she isn't qualified for command, I'm saying that there are others MORE qualified. Especially in a time of war.
Listen, if this was because they couldn't get any help out to the ship, I'd be 100% fine with this. If Bowers and everyone were already members of the crew, we're good. I just can't see Starfleet giving one of it's most advanced anti-Borg ships to a Lt Cmdr in a time of Borg invasion when there's bound to be other officers more qualified and available.
And like I said, it's not going to make me like this series any less.
Just because Riker was offered a command, doesn't mean he was going to be promoted to Captain.
I don't remember if it said in the novel or not, is Ezri's rank a Brevet, like Riker's in The Best of Both Worlds?
Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread
^ The quick answer to Raisor's questions is this: The reason Ezri was considered ready for command after the loss of the Aventine's captain and XO was due in part to events that readers have not yet been able to see — namely, pivotal developments in the upcoming Deep Space Nine novels.
Ezri will distinguish herself in a major way, but to preserve the plot twists of that series, we had to keep the details under wraps, alluding to them rather than spelling them out.
Also, one can assume that her successful assumption of command on the Defiant after the death of Tiris Jast, and now her subsequent rallying to command in battle on the Aventine, plus the fact that command officers are dropping like flies all over the Federation as the war against the Borg heats up, made someone at Starfleet Command say, "Give her the pips and wish her good luck."
it really is that simple.
^ The quick answer to Raisor's questions is this: The reason Ezri was considered ready for command after the loss of the Aventine's captain and XO was due in part to events that readers have not yet been able to see — namely, pivotal developments in the upcoming Deep Space Nine novels.
Ezri will distinguish herself in a major way, but to preserve the plot twists of that series, we had to keep the details under wraps, alluding to them rather than spelling them out.
Also, one can assume that her successful assumption of command on the Defiant after the death of Tiris Jast, and now her subsequent rallying to command in battle on the Aventine, plus the fact that command officers are dropping like flies all over the Federation as the war against the Borg heats up, made someone at Starfleet Command say, "Give her the pips and wish her good luck."
it really is that simple.
Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread
Not that I've read the book, but according to one of the chapter previews, the focus is on the Columbia and the Delta quadrant, Dax would be one of the more qualified individuals.
In regards to combat operations, you go down the ranks in order; as the senior officer with command training she would be come the captain. It doesn't necessarily result in a permanent promotion.
Since Dax has both combat experience and experience as a science office she would be well qualified. During war times, you don't always get what you would like. Do you spend time and resources to transfer one individual across the federation to captain a ship, he might not be familiar with?
Also, if your offered a command it usually means your going to get it. Otherwise, why offer it.
Not that I've read the book, but according to one of the chapter previews, the focus is on the Columbia and the Delta quadrant, Dax would be one of the more qualified individuals.
In regards to combat operations, you go down the ranks in order; as the senior officer with command training she would be come the captain. It doesn't necessarily result in a permanent promotion.
Since Dax has both combat experience and experience as a science office she would be well qualified. During war times, you don't always get what you would like. Do you spend time and resources to transfer one individual across the federation to captain a ship, he might not be familiar with?
Also, if your offered a command it usually means your going to get it. Otherwise, why offer it.
Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread
There's the right way, the wrong way, and the Starfleet way.
There's the right way, the wrong way, and the Starfleet way.
Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread
Qualified for command in general, maybe. Qualified to command this particular, unique vessel? I don't think so.
I don't think you understand just how massive and devastating this invasion is. Also, it's only five years after the Dominion War, which badly depleted Starfleet's personnel base to begin with. I don't think it's safe to assume that many other qualified candidates are available.
Besides, what about Lieutenant Commander Jean-Luc Picard, second officer of the Stargazer, who rose to the captaincy of that ship after its captain was killed (and first officer crippled, according to the novels)? As Dave said, the situation was deliberately designed to parallel Picard's history. I've never heard anyone say that Picard didn't deserve that captaincy, even though the situation is exactly the same. Why the double standard? Or do I have to ask?
Riker was offered command of the Drake. The man who commanded that ship instead, Paul Rice, was addressed as "captain" and had four pips on his collar. That suggests that the ship was of a class that would require an officer of captain's rank to be its CO.
Rice was also an Academy classmate of Riker's, so presumably he rose to captain as quickly as Riker would have if he'd taken the command.
Besides, Picard was promoted to captain when he took command of Stargazer, at least according to the novels.
Qualified for command in general, maybe. Qualified to command this particular, unique vessel? I don't think so.
I don't think you understand just how massive and devastating this invasion is. Also, it's only five years after the Dominion War, which badly depleted Starfleet's personnel base to begin with. I don't think it's safe to assume that many other qualified candidates are available.
Besides, what about Lieutenant Commander Jean-Luc Picard, second officer of the Stargazer, who rose to the captaincy of that ship after its captain was killed (and first officer crippled, according to the novels)? As Dave said, the situation was deliberately designed to parallel Picard's history. I've never heard anyone say that Picard didn't deserve that captaincy, even though the situation is exactly the same. Why the double standard? Or do I have to ask?
Riker was offered command of the Drake. The man who commanded that ship instead, Paul Rice, was addressed as "captain" and had four pips on his collar. That suggests that the ship was of a class that would require an officer of captain's rank to be its CO.
Rice was also an Academy classmate of Riker's, so presumably he rose to captain as quickly as Riker would have if he'd taken the command.
Besides, Picard was promoted to captain when he took command of Stargazer, at least according to the novels.
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread
Which is why she'd be perfect as the XO
Jumping tracks a bit here, but how dire would things have to be for Picard to call on Q to help? I actually think Q would if asked.
Never read the Stargazer novels, so I'm not in a position to compare the two.
And I'd like to point out again that I LIKE Ezri as a Captain, just not sure I like HOW she became one.
..or it suggests that Rice did something while Captain of the Drake to get the 4th pip. I mean, yeah, you're probably right, but we don't know for sure.
Which is why she'd be perfect as the XO
Jumping tracks a bit here, but how dire would things have to be for Picard to call on Q to help? I actually think Q would if asked.
Never read the Stargazer novels, so I'm not in a position to compare the two.
And I'd like to point out again that I LIKE Ezri as a Captain, just not sure I like HOW she became one.
..or it suggests that Rice did something while Captain of the Drake to get the 4th pip. I mean, yeah, you're probably right, but we don't know for sure.
Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread
I think Q's more a "tough love" kind of guy who would say we need to figure it out for ourselves or else take our lumps. Besides, humanity already fulfilled its purpose in Q&A, as far as Q's concerned, so maybe what happens to us now doesn't matter to him.
"The Arsenal of Freedom" was in the first season, so it would've made less than a year's worth of difference to when Rice got the captaincy. Where do you draw the line? Is six and three-quarters years acceptable but six years unbelievable? If so, why?
I think Q's more a "tough love" kind of guy who would say we need to figure it out for ourselves or else take our lumps. Besides, humanity already fulfilled its purpose in Q&A, as far as Q's concerned, so maybe what happens to us now doesn't matter to him.
"The Arsenal of Freedom" was in the first season, so it would've made less than a year's worth of difference to when Rice got the captaincy. Where do you draw the line? Is six and three-quarters years acceptable but six years unbelievable? If so, why?
Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread
Sure be interesting to find out. Some situation where Picard KNOWS that there's no hope, so he calls on Q. I think it would be something that Q would LOVE.
Well, we just don't know, do we? We don't really know anything about Rice's career. We don't have a clue about his political connections, inside or outside of Starfleet.
Let me ask another way. Why wasn't Ezri XO of the Aventine in the first place? She had the job on Defiant at least for a major mission to the Gamma Quad, and perhaps longer then that (depending on what happens in those "missing" four years.) She's got to have major league political connections, being Dax and all.
As an aside, is Sisko the only on screen example of a ship's captain not holding the Rank of Captain (aside from short term assignments like Data/Sutherland and Worf & Dax/Defiant)? He was still a Commander when he brings the Defiant to DS9, right?
Sure be interesting to find out. Some situation where Picard KNOWS that there's no hope, so he calls on Q. I think it would be something that Q would LOVE.
Well, we just don't know, do we? We don't really know anything about Rice's career. We don't have a clue about his political connections, inside or outside of Starfleet.
Let me ask another way. Why wasn't Ezri XO of the Aventine in the first place? She had the job on Defiant at least for a major mission to the Gamma Quad, and perhaps longer then that (depending on what happens in those "missing" four years.) She's got to have major league political connections, being Dax and all.
As an aside, is Sisko the only on screen example of a ship's captain not holding the Rank of Captain (aside from short term assignments like Data/Sutherland and Worf & Dax/Defiant)? He was still a Commander when he brings the Defiant to DS9, right?
Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread
My thoughts - some of them, anyway:
I also really appreciated this departure from the classical "perfect Starfleet officer" we've seen so frequently in the past (the novels have, in general, been pretty good since around the DS9 relaunch about doing that, IMO).
I was especially touched by Admiral Paris's message to Tom. I have to admit, both this scene and the scene on Khitomer after the Ranger's sacrifice brought tears to my eyes. That's something that the Trek novels have rarely accomplished, so kudos to David Mack on those scenes. They were poignant without taking things over the top into cliche.
I also respected the scene between Bev and Geordi where they discussed Picard. I could really see this happening on the series (I was reminded of when the senior staff met in Riker's quarters to discuss 'Picard's' erratic behavior in TNG's Allegiance.) When Picard is starting to make his tried and true followers (and wife) doubt his rationality, you know things are getting bad.
Riker and Troi had me about to scream. Everything Riker said wasn't going to happen in regards to serving with a spouse is happening. If I was Vale, I'd have been threatening to find a new post if he didn't get his priorities straight (if only to be clear to him how serious I felt the problem was). Of course, there was that 'sisterly hug' that became a somewhat 'lingering hug' between Vale and Riker. I can't imagine Riker would normally ever consider an affair, but with things being so strained with Deanna, who knows - maybe he'll find comfort (at least emotional) from Vale. I rather think that Deanna would consider emotional straying even worse than physical straying, especially as crazy as she's been lately. How would either Riker or Vale even be able to keep their feelings hidden from Deanna anyway? Oh, and Dr. Ree is still awesome.
Finally, the Caeliar were great. I love how precise and polite they were (including the little grammar note they offered: "Caliar is fine for a singular or plural noun as well as an adjective." LOL Does anyone else thing that their nanotech will form the basis for the Borg's beginning in the far and distant past in the Delta quadrant? I was glad, in a sense, to see Erica 'alive' in the 24th century, but I've got to wonder if they've Grigari-ed her all up to keep her goin'. I hope not.
My thoughts - some of them, anyway:
I also really appreciated this departure from the classical "perfect Starfleet officer" we've seen so frequently in the past (the novels have, in general, been pretty good since around the DS9 relaunch about doing that, IMO).
I was especially touched by Admiral Paris's message to Tom. I have to admit, both this scene and the scene on Khitomer after the Ranger's sacrifice brought tears to my eyes. That's something that the Trek novels have rarely accomplished, so kudos to David Mack on those scenes. They were poignant without taking things over the top into cliche.
I also respected the scene between Bev and Geordi where they discussed Picard. I could really see this happening on the series (I was reminded of when the senior staff met in Riker's quarters to discuss 'Picard's' erratic behavior in TNG's Allegiance.) When Picard is starting to make his tried and true followers (and wife) doubt his rationality, you know things are getting bad.
Riker and Troi had me about to scream. Everything Riker said wasn't going to happen in regards to serving with a spouse is happening. If I was Vale, I'd have been threatening to find a new post if he didn't get his priorities straight (if only to be clear to him how serious I felt the problem was). Of course, there was that 'sisterly hug' that became a somewhat 'lingering hug' between Vale and Riker. I can't imagine Riker would normally ever consider an affair, but with things being so strained with Deanna, who knows - maybe he'll find comfort (at least emotional) from Vale. I rather think that Deanna would consider emotional straying even worse than physical straying, especially as crazy as she's been lately. How would either Riker or Vale even be able to keep their feelings hidden from Deanna anyway? Oh, and Dr. Ree is still awesome.
Finally, the Caeliar were great. I love how precise and polite they were (including the little grammar note they offered: "Caliar is fine for a singular or plural noun as well as an adjective." LOL Does anyone else thing that their nanotech will form the basis for the Borg's beginning in the far and distant past in the Delta quadrant? I was glad, in a sense, to see Erica 'alive' in the 24th century, but I've got to wonder if they've Grigari-ed her all up to keep her goin'. I hope not.
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