Cogenitor

[Smiley]

I wonder what the cogenitors' lives are like on the home planet. We don't know enough about the biology of the Vissians to determine how much time the cogenitors need to spend each day to keep the population level steady or even how long the lifespan of a cogenitor is. Perhaps there would not be enough time to give them an education under normal circumstances.

It's hard for us as viewers (and for Trip) to make absolute value judgments against the Vissians because our level of ignorance is very high. Asking questions is a good thing, as that can lead to enlightenment, but direct intervention should not be the first step.

 

[Longinus]

True. But Archer was interested in maintaining good relations with the Vissians in charge.

Yes. So he was willing to turn a blind eye to "human" right violations by an potential important ally. Just like in real world human right violations by major powers like China, Russia and USA are ignored, as maintaining good relations with them is more important.

And Archer is his typical preachy hypocrite self about it. Of course if Earths most important allies, the Vulcans do anything that he sees as unethical, he certainly can't let that slide.

Yes, Trip did not handle the situation very well. He is an engineer, not a diplomat. His shipmates with more experience in dealing with aliens refused to help him with doing the right thing, though.

This episode was actually the point at which finally I came to the conclusion that Archer was pretty much an incompetent dick.

 

[JiNX-01]

His shipmates with more experience in dealing with aliens refused to help him with doing the right thing, though.

In a sense you're right. They told him to butt out but when he made it clear he really believed in what he was doing, they could have offered guidance rather than arguments.

This episode was actually the point at which finally I came to the conclusion that Archer was pretty much an incompetent dick.

I could substitute hypocritical for incompetent. I had issues with his competence (common sense?) much earlier...

 

[Captain X]

2x22 – “Cogenator”
Tripped up on morality

This was, for the most part, a very good episode. It explored morality, how we view it, and how it can negatively impact other cultures when we force our morality on them. Then ending of the episode, however, almost completely undid all of that, and generally left me feeling disgusted, not only with Archer, but with Trip as well, but I’ll get into that later.

As I said, there was lot to like about this episode. We started out with Trip making a not-so-sly attempt to get T’Pol to admit her age when they are observing some interesting stellar phenomena, and along the way finally met a species that was every bit as curious and friendly as our crew. They’re willing to share their advanced technology, give tours of their ship, exchange food, and give rides in what I’m dubbing the “space bathysphere”. It’s all almost too good to be true, and as we find out, it truly is, as one of our favorite characters has to struggle with his own sense of morality.

At first it doesn’t seem promising, what with Trip and Reed hitting on the alien babes of the week, but from there we move on to the Vissian engineer, his wife, and their cogenator. Star Trek has, for the most part, stayed safely away from aliens who were anything but bi-gendered, so this was an interesting concept, one I can’t still help but wonder how it works because of the seeming complexity of it all. Actually, for once the implications of how the cogenator is treated and regarded by the Vissian engineer and his wife even managed to overcome the brief humor of Phlox’s offer to not only explain to Trip how it all works, but to show him some pictures as well. I, like Trip, have a tough time getting my head around it, so I struggled right along with him. I mean, just think about it, an entire gender relegated to nothing more than sex slavery. It’s no small issue, and I can see why Trip acted the way he did, even if I think he should have resisted the urge to let his morality cloud his focus. And with Archer out taking a ride in the space bathysphere, he had no one to turn to for counsel or even a sympathetic ear to talk it out with.

As a TnT’er I kind of find it interesting that he went to T’Pol for advice. He got some good advice, and really shouldn’t have pried, because sometime ignorance truly can be bliss. There was something of a missed opportunity there though, in that for all that T’Pol has lectured Enterprise’s human crew about non-interference and not applying your morals to other cultures, she has actually done so on numerous occasions with humanity itself. Perhaps if he’d gone there he might have gotten a more receptive pointy ear on the issue, because when you think about it, when is it wrong not to interfere? It’s a tough call in this episode, because on the one hand they have an otherwise friendly alien race that’s willing to share technology that would help advance humanity’s technologic level by leaps and bounds, and on the other we have the very objectionable case of servitude, made all the more objectionable by the fact this person is kept simply for its reproductive organs and regarded for nothing else.

While on the one hand I really wished Trip had left well enough alone, on the other I congratulate his initiative and really expect nothing less from him. It’s a travesty to his character that he ends up being belittled by his best friend for doing what could definitely be seen as the right thing, and that in the end all of his efforts are in vain because Captain Asshole and Sidekick Polly deny the cogenator asylum. I really hate that they made Trip so docile too through his chewing out by the biggest hypocrite of them all. Just who the hell is Archer to lecture Trip on forcing his beliefs on others when he just got done doing it himself in the last episode to Phlox! Not to mention all the other times he’s done it to other alien cultures! :rant2:

And through it all, I was actually impressed by the Vissian Captain, who actually seemed like a pretty reasonable man and a much better Captain than Archer.

*sigh* I just… I just can’t get over Archer scolding Trip and Trip becoming the most self-depreciating person I can ever think of even seeing. Really, it’s like watching an abuse victim actually start to believe all the bullshit their abuser is telling to them as the beat them to a bloody pulp. It almost ruins the episode for me, simply because it takes a very good moral struggle and trivializes it into “Archer is always right” and “don’t interfere with other cultures no matter what.” Granted, the cogenator killing itself was a very real possibility, and a good consequence of making the decision to interfere, but it should in no way reflect on if it was the right decision or not, because really it could go either way.

At least for the most part this was a very good episode, and a breath of fresh air from the rest of the season. I’d say 8 space bathyspheres out of 10.

 

[suebsg9]

2x22 – “Cogenator”
Tripped up on morality

This was, for the most part, a very good episode. It explored morality, how we view it, and how it can negatively impact other cultures when we force our morality on them. Then ending of the episode, however, almost completely undid all of that, and generally left me feeling disgusted, not only with Archer, but with Trip as well, but I’ll get into that later.

As I said, there was lot to like about this episode. We started out with Trip making a not-so-sly attempt to get T’Pol to admit her age when they are observing some interesting stellar phenomena, and along the way finally met a species that was every bit as curious and friendly as our crew. They’re willing to share their advanced technology, give tours of their ship, exchange food, and give rides in what I’m dubbing the “space bathysphere”. It’s all almost too good to be true, and as we find out, it truly is, as one of our favorite characters has to struggle with his own sense of morality.

At first it doesn’t seem promising, what with Trip and Reed hitting on the alien babes of the week, but from there we move on to the Vissian engineer, his wife, and their cogenator. Star Trek has, for the most part, stayed safely away from aliens who were anything but bi-gendered, so this was an interesting concept, one I can’t still help but wonder how it works because of the seeming complexity of it all. Actually, for once the implications of how the cogenator is treated and regarded by the Vissian engineer and his wife even managed to overcome the brief humor of Phlox’s offer to not only explain to Trip how it all works, but to show him some pictures as well. I, like Trip, have a tough time getting my head around it, so I struggled right along with him. I mean, just think about it, an entire gender relegated to nothing more than sex slavery. It’s no small issue, and I can see why Trip acted the way he did, even if I think he should have resisted the urge to let his morality cloud his focus. And with Archer out taking a ride in the space bathysphere, he had no one to turn to for counsel or even a sympathetic ear to talk it out with.

As a TnT’er I kind of find it interesting that he went to T’Pol for advice. He got some good advice, and really shouldn’t have pried, because sometime ignorance truly can be bliss. There was something of a missed opportunity there though, in that for all that T’Pol has lectured Enterprise’s human crew about non-interference and not applying your morals to other cultures, she has actually done so on numerous occasions with humanity itself. Perhaps if he’d gone there he might have gotten a more receptive pointy ear on the issue, because when you think about it, when is it wrong not to interfere? It’s a tough call in this episode, because on the one hand they have an otherwise friendly alien race that’s willing to share technology that would help advance humanity’s technologic level by leaps and bounds, and on the other we have the very objectionable case of servitude, made all the more objectionable by the fact this person is kept simply for its reproductive organs and regarded for nothing else.

While on the one hand I really wished Trip had left well enough alone, on the other I congratulate his initiative and really expect nothing less from him. It’s a travesty to his character that he ends up being belittled by his best friend for doing what could definitely be seen as the right thing, and that in the end all of his efforts are in vain because Captain Asshole and Sidekick Polly deny the cogenator asylum. I really hate that they made Trip so docile too through his chewing out by the biggest hypocrite of them all. Just who the hell is Archer to lecture Trip on forcing his beliefs on others when he just got done doing it himself in the last episode to Phlox! Not to mention all the other times he’s done it to other alien cultures! :rant2:

And through it all, I was actually impressed by the Vissian Captain, who actually seemed like a pretty reasonable man and a much better Captain than Archer.

*sigh* I just… I just can’t get over Archer scolding Trip and Trip becoming the most self-depreciating person I can ever think of even seeing. Really, it’s like watching an abuse victim actually start to believe all the bullshit their abuser is telling to them as the beat them to a bloody pulp. It almost ruins the episode for me, simply because it takes a very good moral struggle and trivializes it into “Archer is always right” and “don’t interfere with other cultures no matter what.” Granted, the cogenator killing itself was a very real possibility, and a good consequence of making the decision to interfere, but it should in no way reflect on if it was the right decision or not, because really it could go either way.

At least for the most part this was a very good episode, and a breath of fresh air from the rest of the season. I’d say 8 space bathyspheres out of 10.

The scene at the end I cannot watch as Archer is yelling at Trip everything else I can watch and think that part ruins it for me if he just sat Trip down told him what happend and hey we are not suppost to be interferring with other cultures and stuff. But I agree with most of that review I like the eps just that last scene can't watch it.​

 

[Pensive]

It hurts me to watch that scene because Trip, for all the buddy-buddy relationship with Jon, is still a little starstruck by him. When Archer gives him a stern talking to, you can see Trip is so upset that he's disappointed Jon that he actually starts questioning whether he did the right thing or not.

 

[Krieg1981]

I'm perplexed by the message of this episode. Was Trip wrong to try to help the Cogenitor? She was treated horribly, not given any rights or even a name. Archer comes off like a jerk for chewing Trip out for trying to help her/it. That seems out of character for Archer to me, he seems willing to help others even when it's inconvieninet normally.
This is pretty obviously a metaphor for gays, and while I appreciate the effort, I don't think it was very well done, given the tragic ending for the third sexed being and Trip's attempts to help being condemned.
This episode is pretty similar to TNG episode with the genderless alien that falls for Riker. That story had a real downer of an ending too. Can the next gay metaphor ST story please have a real gay character and a happy ending please?

Sometimes 'Enterprise' boggles the mind.

 

[JiNX-01]

I'm perplexed by the message of this episode. Was Trip wrong to try to help the Cogenitor? She was treated horribly, not given any rights or even a name. Archer comes off like a jerk for chewing Trip out for trying to help her/it. That seems out of character for Archer to me, he seems willing to help others even when it's inconvieninet normally.
This is pretty obviously a metaphor for gays, and while I appreciate the effort, I don't think it was very well done, given the tragic ending for the third sexed being and Trip's attempts to help being condemned.
This episode is pretty similar to TNG episode with the genderless alien that falls for Riker. That story had a real downer of an ending too. Can the next gay metaphor ST story please have a real gay character and a happy ending please?

Sometimes 'Enterprise' boggles the mind.

What do you mean?

 

[angie]

It hurts me to watch that scene because Trip, for all the buddy-buddy relationship with Jon, is still a little starstruck by him. When Archer gives him a stern talking to, you can see Trip is so upset that he's disappointed Jon that he actually starts questioning whether he did the right thing or not.

As he should---he should wonder why someone he respects is backing up the aliens. He instead just blames Archer for taking T'Pol's side once again instead of realizing Archer is adapting to his role as first captain from Earth and making the hard decision.

 

[Krieg1981]

I'm perplexed by the message of this episode. Was Trip wrong to try to help the Cogenitor? She was treated horribly, not given any rights or even a name. Archer comes off like a jerk for chewing Trip out for trying to help her/it. That seems out of character for Archer to me, he seems willing to help others even when it's inconvieninet normally.
This is pretty obviously a metaphor for gays, and while I appreciate the effort, I don't think it was very well done, given the tragic ending for the third sexed being and Trip's attempts to help being condemned.
This episode is pretty similar to TNG episode with the genderless alien that falls for Riker. That story had a real downer of an ending too. Can the next gay metaphor ST story please have a real gay character and a happy ending please?

Sometimes 'Enterprise' boggles the mind.

What do you mean?

When characters behave out of character! Enterprise threw me a lot of curve balls in that regard. I, however do not see a gay metaphor. If the cogenitors "keepers" were two males, maybe. I should watch it again!

 

[JiNX-01]

Sometimes 'Enterprise' boggles the mind.

What do you mean?

When characters behave out of character! Enterprise threw me a lot of curve balls in that regard. I, however do not see a gay metaphor. If the cogenitors "keepers" were two males, maybe. I should watch it again!

Oh, I didn't see it as a "gay" episode. I saw it as a commentary on sexism in general.
Who did you see as out of character? My OOC issue was Archer.

 

[Krieg1981]

What do you mean?

When characters behave out of character! Enterprise threw me a lot of curve balls in that regard. I, however do not see a gay metaphor. If the cogenitors "keepers" were two males, maybe. I should watch it again!

Oh, I didn't see it as a "gay" episode. I saw it as a commentary on sexism in general.
Who did you see as out of character? My OOC issue was Archer.

Well, Archer was the out of character one in this episode......but there were examples all throughout the series! Sorry to be vague........I saw the episode as a commentary on basic human rights. Thats my brain interpretation!

 

[miriel68]

Oh my, it seems that Archer just can't get it right, whatever he says or does . If he shows his emotions, he is "weak", if he gets angry, he is a "bully" (poor Trip, indeed). If he act as captain should, letting aside his emotion, he is "out of character" or "hypocrite" or "willing to turn a blind eye to "human" right violations by an potential important ally".
What do you think the "perfect captain" Picard would have done in such a situation (I'm not a great fan of Picard but I do recognize his quality as a leader)? Do you think he would have granted asylum to Cogenitor? No way, IMO: if I remember correctly in quite few occasions Picard acted against his personal wish because his respected the value of prime directive. And, if we had had Rikes in place of Trip (which is, of course, improbable) I'm sure he would have been punished by strict Picard far more severly than Trip by Archer (in fact Archer let Trip get away with it because, as usual, he takes all the blame on himself)

 

[Captain X]

What makes Archer a hypocrite here is that he did the exact same thing as far as pushing his own views and culture on others prior to this episode, and he would go on to do the same after this episode. In fact, he always seems to want to push his help on people he don't want it (The Andorian Incident, Marauders, etc), but when people actually come to him for help (Dear Doctor, Cogenitor), he turns them down flat.

As for Picard, well I'm not a huge fan of his, but he did offer asylum more than once to those who asked for it. In fact I remember an episode where there was this culture that basically had everyone who turned 60 commit suicide, and in this case it was the scientist trying to save their dying sun. Picard offered the scientist asylum and was even going to go to the mat to defend him because his people threatened to open fire on Enterprise if they attempted to leave orbit with him on board. In another instance, the much vaunted gay allegory episode that featured a race of genderless aliens, Picard supported Riker's plan to rescue the alien he'd developed a relationship with from brainwashing, and was going to grant it asylum, but as it turned out they were already too late.

No, Cogenitor was just another bad Prime Directive episode, like so many before it. What actually made it a little more lame in this case was that there wasn't supposed to be a Prime Directive yet.

 

[JiNX-01]

As for Picard, well I'm not a huge fan of his, but he did offer asylum more than once to those who asked for it. In fact I remember an episode where there was this culture that basically had everyone who turned 60 commit suicide, and in this case it was the scientist trying to save their dying sun. Picard offered the scientist asylum and was even going to go to the mat to defend him because his people threatened to open fire on Enterprise if they attempted to leave orbit with him on board. In another instance, the much vaunted gay allegory episode that featured a race of genderless aliens, Picard supported Riker's plan to rescue the alien he'd developed a relationship with from brainwashing, and was going to grant it asylum, but as it turned out they were already too late.

TNG's "The Masterpiece Society" might be even closer to the Cogenitor issue: A colony of genetically engineered humans is threatened by a stellar core fragment. ENT-D goes to try to help them. The individuals in the colony are engineered to serve specific functions within the society. After exposure to members of the crew and learning about the right of self-determination, some of them want to leave. Their departure will have severely detrimental effects on the balance and needs of the society, but Picard still grants them asylum.

And he wasn't anywhere near Singapore.

 

[commodore64]

Oh my, it seems that Archer just can't get it right, whatever he says or does . If he shows his emotions, he is "weak", if he gets angry, he is a "bully" (poor Trip, indeed). If he act as captain should, letting aside his emotion, he is "out of character" or "hypocrite" or "willing to turn a blind eye to "human" right violations by an potential important ally".
What do you think the "perfect captain" Picard would have done in such a situation (I'm not a great fan of Picard but I do recognize his quality as a leader)? Do you think he would have granted asylum to Cogenitor? No way, IMO: if I remember correctly in quite few occasions Picard acted against his personal wish because his respected the value of prime directive. And, if we had had Rikes in place of Trip (which is, of course, improbable) I'm sure he would have been punished by strict Picard far more severly than Trip by Archer (in fact Archer let Trip get away with it because, as usual, he takes all the blame on himself)

Pretty much, just like Trip can never do anything wrong to some here.

I'll say again: the point of this episode -- which I liked -- was showing how far Archer had come and showing perhaps the beginning of what felt like the Prime Directive. I liked that Archer and T'Pol (and Phlox for that matter) agreed from the outset and that Trip rushed ahead, foolishly, but with good intentions.

What came off as preachy to some here seemed like just desserts to me: Trip, for all good intentions, screwed up.

It hurts me to watch that scene because Trip, for all the buddy-buddy relationship with Jon, is still a little starstruck by him. When Archer gives him a stern talking to, you can see Trip is so upset that he's disappointed Jon that he actually starts questioning whether he did the right thing or not.

You know, in a way that kinda bothers me. Phlox and T'Pol (his senior officer) both told Trip to leave it alone. The one thing I didn't like about this episode was that it wasn't Charlie's death that bothered Trip, it was disappointing the captain.

 

[miriel68]

TNG's "The Masterpiece Society" might be even closer to the Cogenitor issue: A colony of genetically engineered humans is threatened by a stellar core fragment. ENT-D goes to try to help them. The individuals in the colony are engineered to serve specific functions within the society. After exposure to members of the crew and learning about the right of self-determination, some of them want to leave. Their departure will have severely detrimental effects on the balance and needs of the society, but Picard still grants them asylum.

And he wasn't anywhere near Singapore.

If I remember correctly, Picard is aware, however, that in any case they did a lot of damage to the colony and his only (lame) excuse is that the colonists were humans, therefore the prime directive doesn't apply. Of course, the problem of TNG is that - especially in earlier seasons - it tries to please everyone and is very careful not to let the audience with some uncomfortable feelings so while Picard is quite categoric the prime directive must be respected, there is always some "trick" to make everybody happy in the end (like in the "Hunted")

I can see a substantial difference between "Dear Doctor" or "Cogenitor" and "Andorian Incident" and "Marauders", between interfereing with a society and its culture and giving hand to someone obviously wronged (it is not "normal" for the colonists to be robbed by pirates, for example). On the other hand, Archer's meddling with other people does cause problems quite often (I think it was played very well with "Detained" and "Desert crossing") even if he has always good intentions, and that's exactly what Enterprise tries to show: how did they come to elaborate prime directive, which we have as "given" in TOS or TNG. I appreciated that effort very much and IMO it compensates brilliantly for some minor "canon violations" like Klingon's forehead, things about weapons and other rather insignificant changes.

 

[Captain X]

The substantial difference between Dear Doctor or Cogenitor and Andorian Incident and Marauders is that in the former instances, Archer was asked point blank for his help and he refused it when it would have been appropriate to give it, and in the latter instances, he forced his help on those who wanted to deal with their own problems on their own. It doesn't matter if it's "normal" for the colonists to be robbed by pirates, they told Archer off more than once and Archer just kept insisting until they caved. He could've gotten them all killed by doing so, and by rights it should have, but the Klingons were made to be stupid and pathetic so our heroes could win and so Archer could be right in imposing his views (i.e. standing up to bullies) on those people. Hell, in just the episode before Cogenitor, Archer forced his culture and views on Phlox in providing treatment for a patient that had refused it, completely against Phlox's ethics. Then in Cogenitor he turned around and bitched Trip about for doing the exact same thing. It doesn't matter if you think what Trip did was wrong or not, it makes Archer a hypocrite for chewing his ass for acting exactly as he had done previously and would continue to do in the future.

 

[trj]

The substantial difference between Dear Doctor or Cogenitor and Andorian Incident and Marauders is that in the former instances, Archer was asked point blank for his help and he refused it when it would have been appropriate to give it, and in the latter instances, he forced his help on those who wanted to deal with their own problems on their own. It doesn't matter if it's "normal" for the colonists to be robbed by pirates, they told Archer off more than once and Archer just kept insisting until they caved. He could've gotten them all killed by doing so, and by rights it should have, but the Klingons were made to be stupid and pathetic so our heroes could win and so Archer could be right in imposing his views (i.e. standing up to bullies) on those people. Hell, in just the episode before Cogenitor, Archer forced his culture and views on Phlox in providing treatment for a patient that had refused it, completely against Phlox's ethics. Then in Cogenitor he turned around and bitched Trip about for doing the exact same thing. It doesn't matter if you think what Trip did was wrong or not, it makes Archer a hypocrite for chewing his ass for acting exactly as he had done previously and would continue to do in the future.

totally agree

 

[miriel68]

Archer was asked point blank for his help and he refused it when it would have been appropriate to give it, and in the latter instances, he forced his help on those who wanted to deal with their own problems on their own.

Well, what can I say... it seems that you are quite certain what would have been appropriate to do in such delicate and complex situation That makes you a kindred spirit with Trip, but I doubt, somehow, it would be a good quality in a Starfleet captain.