Just how bad is Janeway, Captain wise?
- Thread starter Shintaek
- Start date
The list is just too long...
I'm still stuck on the Ocampa thing... they interfered with the affairs of another species that I can't even remember being Warp capable (my memory of Caretaker is bad, please correct me if I'm wrong) which is a direct violation of the Prime Directive. Not only that, they could have saved their necks. But shes just consistently bad.
I'm more of a Season 5 expert... but I remember the little Ransome Revenge torture episode didn't help her status. And in Course: Oblivion her duplicate (who acts the same) got the whole crew killed by not turning back.
I'm still stuck on the Ocampa thing... they interfered with the affairs of another species that I can't even remember being Warp capable (my memory of Caretaker is bad, please correct me if I'm wrong) which is a direct violation of the Prime Directive. Not only that, they could have saved their necks. But shes just consistently bad.
I'm more of a Season 5 expert... but I remember the little Ransome Revenge torture episode didn't help her status. And in Course: Oblivion her duplicate (who acts the same) got the whole crew killed by not turning back.
Janeway pointed out, however, that they had unwillingly become involved with the Ocampa because of the Caretaker's actions. The PD, which has never been used consistently, is to prevent the Feds from altering the culture of another planet (presumably a more primitive one); since the Caretaker helped the Ocampa and was dying, she probably decided it would have violated her principles to simply ignore that and put the safety of her crew ahead of helping another race.
Janeway's attempt to coerce Noah Lessing in Equinox II takes the main prize with me. She was gambling with his life and he came within inches of death because of her poor judgement.
My other main qualm with her was that she would was so ridiculusly uneven when it came to crew disipline. Some got slaps on the wrists or a "you've dissapointed me" speech, others got fed to the lions.
My other main qualm with her was that she would was so ridiculusly uneven when it came to crew disipline. Some got slaps on the wrists or a "you've dissapointed me" speech, others got fed to the lions.
One thing that annoyed me alot in the first season, and no one else then the writers are to blame for this, was that she was a "Know It All".
There wasn't a solution to a problem which she didn't contribute to.
Picard and Sisko depended on their crew to solve things, but Janeway just knew everything about everything.
There wasn't a solution to a problem which she didn't contribute to.
Picard and Sisko depended on their crew to solve things, but Janeway just knew everything about everything.
On a personal level I think she was a great captain probably one of the best in her relations with the rest of the crew- however I think she should have done more to intigrate seven after she freed her from the collective. On a professional level she was too inconsistent, chossing to follow the rules when she felt it suited her and at other times she didnt. In the very first episode she broke the prime directive by destroying the array- I don't really have a problem with this but she doesnt seem to accept that she broke it. In equinox part one the captain of the equniox asked her if she had ever broken a prime directive and she said NO. Another thing that really got on my nerves was when she attempted to steal technology from the borg, that was very un-starfleet. In fact I think a lot of the time she went around poking her nose into matters which didnt concern them which often created a lot of uneccessary problems for the ship. All of her encounters with the Borg were self induced, i.e trying to pass through borg space, strying to steal technology from the borg. It's almost like she totally disregarded The enterprises experiences with them.
But having said all of this she is still my second best captain overall after Jean Luc Picard.
But having said all of this she is still my second best captain overall after Jean Luc Picard.
Oh, for goodness' sake...
Compared to Kirk, Janeway was the Prime Directive queen. No captain (that we viewers had much exposure to, that is) ever played fast and loose with the Prime Directive more consistently than did Kirk, and no captain more consistently did so without admitting that he had, either. The only reason why he didn't literally do it more often is because (aside from movies) we only saw him in action for three years.
I thought Janeway was a fine captain. Certainly she had flaws, but then again, all of them did, with the possible exception of Picard, and even he did some questionable things now and then. Naturally. Where's the drama in perfection?
Mostly this was dictated by the necessities, or perceived necessities, of plot, but honestly, I think part of it is reality. I mean, what -- you think even honorable military officers and diplomats in history and in the present don't exceed or ignore their orders sometimes? Even really important orders? I mean, jeez, read up on an actual battle or two sometime. If they have and still do, which I assure you is the case, why should you expect those in the future to be that much different? Humans will still be humans. I at least certainly hope so.
Compared to Kirk, Janeway was the Prime Directive queen. No captain (that we viewers had much exposure to, that is) ever played fast and loose with the Prime Directive more consistently than did Kirk, and no captain more consistently did so without admitting that he had, either. The only reason why he didn't literally do it more often is because (aside from movies) we only saw him in action for three years.
I thought Janeway was a fine captain. Certainly she had flaws, but then again, all of them did, with the possible exception of Picard, and even he did some questionable things now and then. Naturally. Where's the drama in perfection?
Mostly this was dictated by the necessities, or perceived necessities, of plot, but honestly, I think part of it is reality. I mean, what -- you think even honorable military officers and diplomats in history and in the present don't exceed or ignore their orders sometimes? Even really important orders? I mean, jeez, read up on an actual battle or two sometime. If they have and still do, which I assure you is the case, why should you expect those in the future to be that much different? Humans will still be humans. I at least certainly hope so.
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He came within inches of death because he helping to commit genocide against the aliens who were about to kill him. Funny how Janeway critics are more offended about the "torture" than they are about genocide.
I think this does it for me too. I'm still thinking about what happened in 30 Days and then in Counterpoint. She throws Paris to the wolves and treats him like shit for violating the prime directive, and then she does almost the same thing by harboring telepaths. I wouldn't have minded it if she had treated Paris better, but she didn't.
He came within inches of death because he helping to commit genocide against the aliens who were about to kill him. Funny how Janeway critics are more offended about the "torture" than they are about genocide.
I doubt anyone's saying anything of the kind. But to combat genocide with torture and murder isn't exactly in the Starfleet rulebook. To be offended by a behavior is one thing; lowering your own behavior to its level in retribution is another.
Hang on, here was no genocide. They were killing that species of life form but not to kill every last one of them.
They were serial killers.
Yes Noah Lessing was guilty as sin and should have been thrown straight into the Brig.
After committing attemted Murder, Kathryn Janeway should have had a cell right beside him.
They were serial killers.
Yes Noah Lessing was guilty as sin and should have been thrown straight into the Brig.
After committing attemted Murder, Kathryn Janeway should have had a cell right beside him.
The Equinox crew were perfectly willing to kill innocent aliens, all of them if it got to that point, for their own ends. I'd put the fear of God into the bastard if I was in Janeway's shoes as well.
It's funny, if this was NuBSG I'd bet almost everyone would root the chars on for nearly killing that guy, but since it's Janeway you pounce on it as an example of her being a bad captain.
It's funny, if this was NuBSG I'd bet almost everyone would root the chars on for nearly killing that guy, but since it's Janeway you pounce on it as an example of her being a bad captain.
Yes I bet you would Mr. Internet Tough Guy.
Remember when Janeway murdered Tuvix? Or when she repeatedly lobotomized the Doctor? That she still had her crew's trust by the end of the show is only due to a complete failure of imagination on the part of the writers.
It was season seven when I finally lost it with Janeway, I mean how many chances does one give to a hologram? he commits an act of treason in that woeful hologram/hirogen double bill and gets no punishment of any note, then come one of the later episodes he impersonates Janeway, assaults numerous officers and steals the warpcore against Janeways orders and again gets away with it.
Seven of Nine meanwhile beams an 8472 from the ship to save Voyager and gets confined to the cargobay.
Tom Paris goes off helps stop the destruction of like an alien world and gets knocked down to Ensign, compared to the Doctors part in the abduction of Lieutenant Torres, and so on it seems Paris got a very rough deal.
Seven of Nine meanwhile beams an 8472 from the ship to save Voyager and gets confined to the cargobay.
Tom Paris goes off helps stop the destruction of like an alien world and gets knocked down to Ensign, compared to the Doctors part in the abduction of Lieutenant Torres, and so on it seems Paris got a very rough deal.
So she saved two of her crew (Tuvok and Neelix) by splitting up an amalgam being. What's your point? She should have done nothing and just let those two die?
Repeatedly lobotomized the Doctor, he's done plenty to deserve it.
Oh good gosh.
If Janeway hadn't destroyed the array, the Kazon would've used it to enslave the Ocampa. The Caretaker even asked her to help the Ocampa out. In destroying the Array, she prevented the Kazon from doing this as well as allowing the ocampa to become isolated so they can develop on their own. Something else the Caretaker wanted as well.
And, furthermore, if the Kazon had taken over the array they would've had a huge technological advantage over their part of the galaxy. If they would've done so Janeway could not have returned home to the Federation either and the show probably would've been very different as she would be constantly fighting against the Kazon and we could've gotten what I call the G. I. Joe syndrome. The same thing that happened to DS9 in its last seasons, that we only saw one villain/antagonist instead of a variety of them.
But Janeway should've not intervened because it violates the PD, regardless of the consequences.
ADDED: In fact, it would've given the Kazon a huge advantage over the entire galaxy since the array could teleport them anywhere they wanted.
If Janeway hadn't destroyed the array, the Kazon would've used it to enslave the Ocampa. The Caretaker even asked her to help the Ocampa out. In destroying the Array, she prevented the Kazon from doing this as well as allowing the ocampa to become isolated so they can develop on their own. Something else the Caretaker wanted as well.
And, furthermore, if the Kazon had taken over the array they would've had a huge technological advantage over their part of the galaxy. If they would've done so Janeway could not have returned home to the Federation either and the show probably would've been very different as she would be constantly fighting against the Kazon and we could've gotten what I call the G. I. Joe syndrome. The same thing that happened to DS9 in its last seasons, that we only saw one villain/antagonist instead of a variety of them.
But Janeway should've not intervened because it violates the PD, regardless of the consequences.
ADDED: In fact, it would've given the Kazon a huge advantage over the entire galaxy since the array could teleport them anywhere they wanted.
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If Janeway had really wanted to murder someone she would have done it herself - not passively let some aliens do it. Did she cross a line? Her goal was to get Lessing to talk. She was convinced he would break. Chakotay was convinced he would die rather than betray his captain. Who was right? We don't know because Chakotay went in and got him.
I equate Janeway's behavior in this episode with Kirk's in the TOS episode "Obsession". Both captains crossed the line in their quest for revenge and both bought themselves back. That was the point.
I agree with that, I made the same point in another thread. Of course Kirk would have ordered Spock to mind meld with Lessing and get the info that way. Pity Janeway didn't think of that with Tuvok.
When Janeway catches up with the Equinox, she snaps out of it pretty quick I thought.
Another lost opportunity for Tuvie!
Seriously, I'm not sure if a mind meld is a better or worse option human rights-wise then threatening death by the aliens you've been killing. Besides, if Janeway had gone that route I doubt there would be less criticism.
