Anyone think Picard and Data were dead wrong in SILICON AVATAR?

[Mutara Nebula 1967]

**Spoiler if you have never seen this episode**





I rewatched this for the first time last night in many years and found it a solid episode. It had one of the most somber endings ever on Next Gen as the female scientist can say nothing…stung by Data’s word and refusal to give voice to her son[/Now I’m sure this has been debated before but I feel Picard and Data were dead wrong on this one. The female scientist was right…the people being slaughtered by the Crystalline Entity were not cuddle fish eaten by whales. Picard’s attitude just was so wrong and I did not appreciate the daggers of death he was shooting at the end of the episode]

And Data came off as a huge pr%#k at the end of the episode. First off why should he assume the Scientist career was destroyed…I think the population on the two inhabited worlds the C.E. was approaching would hail her as a hero as well as the families on the depopulated freighter.

Second…maybe her son would not be sad but proud and moved that she put every thing on the line to avenge his death and prevent further killing

Next Gen has been labeled Politically Correct over the past twenty years and I think supporters of this argument probably would look at SILICON AVATAR as the shining example of political correctness. I couldn’t believe the words coming out of Picard’s mouth as he was saying he hoped firing on the C.E. was a last resort. It’s really ironic as the later movie Picard had no problem blowing away assimilated crew men without nary a thought

 

[RobertScorpio]

**Spoiler if you have never seen this episode**





I rewatched this for the first time last night in many years and found it a solid episode. It had one of the most somber endings ever on Next Gen as the female scientist can say nothing…stung by Data’s word and refusal to give voice to her son[/Now I’m sure this has been debated before but I feel Picard and Data were dead wrong on this one. The female scientist was right…the people being slaughtered by the Crystalline Entity were not cuddle fish eaten by whales. Picard’s attitude just was so wrong and I did not appreciate the daggers of death he was shooting at the end of the episode]

And Data came off as a huge pr%#k at the end of the episode. First off why should he assume the Scientist career was destroyed…I think the population on the two inhabited worlds the C.E. was approaching would hail her as a hero as well as the families on the depopulated freighter.

Second…maybe her son would not be said but proud and moved that she put every thing on the line to avenge his death and prevent further killing

Next Gen has been labeled Politically Correct over the past twenty years and I think supporters of this argument probably would look at SILICON AVATAR as the shining example of political correctness. I couldn’t believe the words coming out of Picard’s mouth as he was saying he hoped firing on the C.E. was a last resort. It’s really ironic as the later movie Picard had no problem blowing away assimilated crew men without nary a thought

Yes, I agree totally. I have always HATED the pompus attitude of this episode. This is why TNG is labeled with the "clinton era" tag. Good example as to why I would never want Picard negotiating anything that had any strategic value...he's a softy.

Rob
Scorpio

 

[Mutara Nebula 1967]

Well said RobertScorpio. Picard's position was incredibly shaky that even Riker had to call him on it.

 

[HortaVorta]

The correctness of Dr. Kila Marr's actions against the entity rests on two premises: A) that it was sentient, and B) that it realized the beings it was consuming were also sentient. There is more evidence to support the first premise than the second.

Whether Lore was in some kind of malevolent collusion with the S.E. in "Datalore" is an open question; his interaction with the entity may barely have qualified as communication, regardless of how he was behaving at his end. There's no way of knowing how smart the S.E. was, or what the nature of its intellect/worldview was.

When Dr. Marr commenced her communication attempt, she got results not unlike Lore's. It's hard to say where things might have proceeded had she not upped the output and shattered it, which is what I think Picard's point was--if it was demonstrated to be sapient, while being unaware that it was consuming other intelligent life, it's at worst guilty of negligent homicide, and could conceivably be convinced/forced to avoid intelligent food sources in future. There's no way of knowing how it perceived humanoids--getting it to understand might be as much an undertaking as it was in TAS' "One of Our Planets is Missing".

If on the other hand it became clear through further interaction that the S.E. had killed other sapients knowingly/willfully, then the crew could act to prevent further attacks.

That's not political correctness. It simply not going off half-cocked.

 

[RobertScorpio]

The correctness of Dr. Kila Marr's actions against the entity rests on two premises: A) that it was sentient, and B) that it realized the beings it was consuming were also sentient. There is more evidence to support the first premise than the second.

Whether Lore was in some kind of malevolent collusion with the S.E. in "Datalore" is an open question; his interaction with the entity may barely have qualified as communication, regardless of how he was behaving at his end. There's no way of knowing how smart the S.E. was, or what the nature of its intellect/worldview was.

When Dr. Marr commenced her communication attempt, she got results not unlike Lore's. It's hard to say where things might have proceeded had she not upped the output and shattered it, which is what I think Picard's point was--if it is demonstrated to be sapient, while being unaware that it was consuming other intelligent life, it's at worst guilty of negligent homicide, and could conceivably be convinced/forced to avoid intelligent food sources in future. There's no way of knowing how it perceives humanoids--getting it to understand might be as much an undertaking as it was in TAS' "One of Our Planets is Missing".

If on the other hand it became clear through further interaction that the S.E. had killed other sapients knowingly/willfully, then the crew could act to prevent further attacks.

That's not political correctness. It simply not going off half-cocked.

Nope...it was political correctness. Your lengthy position however makes you a candidate for the 'most likely a Picard clone' crown.

Rob
Scorpio

 

[Augustus]

How many total episodes is the C.E. in? was it ever destroyed?

 

[Vic Sixx]

I agree with Dr. Marr's view point. Stopping it was more important. This reminded me of the TOS episode, "Obsession", remember Kirk and the cloud creature?

Kirk would have blasted it, Picard would have tried to talk to it. Similar situation.

 

[torius22]

great white sharks occasionally kill people but u don't see them being hunted to extinction.
just because an animal is considered dangerous doesn't mean u kill it on sight . unless u are defending yourself or no other option is available , if u can run , run from it , distracting it so u can get away or convincing it that you're not a good choice for a meal . if these fail , or are not available then u use lethal force against it.
otherwise why are we preserving all the lions and snakes and everything else dangerous in the world . why dont we just implement a "if it can kill us well kill it first policy. " very short sighted thinking on her part , i only wish there had been a follow up story on where the entity performed a useful function in nature that said "well , we screwed ourselves by killing it ". it was never proven to be evil it would have some kind of guiding intelligence to do so
and about the cloud creature mentioned , they did try to communicate with it if i recall correctly it was proven to have some kind of intelligence and it was attacking them as well so it could be argued as self defense in that particular scenario .
kudos to u hortavorta for ur opinion

 

[Augustus]

great white sharks occasionly kill people but u dont see them being hunted out of extinction

Are you really making that comparison or is this just sarcasm?

 

[Rhaenys]

Episodes like this and I,Borg, for example, are the reason why I love TNG. And I see many people criticize them this days.

Picard and Data were right. Maybe they could have communicated with the entity... Maybe the entity was just feeding, maybe it didn't realize what was it doing to people... And if it knew, they could have kill it later.
Instead Marr destroyed something unique. She just wanted a revenge and she was wrong.

Picard in moveis was different, and that ruined the character a little bit.

 

[Bosch571]

ow yea, kill very potential dangerous entity in the universe. No need trial that would be way to civilized, destroy everything you don't understand to make sure you'll never learn anything.

Come on were not wasting our time killing every animal who can potentially attack an human. Were not even going after sharks who did kill a human. It could have been feeding, or it could be unaware of the damage it did. That’s assuming it has a consciousness on that high a level. They were in no danger, with the ability to destroy it at any time if it did get dangerous to them or other people. There really was no need to kill it unless you count revenge as one.

 

[Sakrysta]

I wonder if shattering the Crystaline Entity would actually have "killed" it per se. I would think it was at least possible that the fragments would simply each begin feeding on a smaller scale, growing into new entities. You would eventually end up with a much greater threat to deal with.

At least, I think that would have made an interesting follow-up story.

 

[ToddKent]

The problem is that no one knew exactly what the CE was. And it's not a good idea to just kill something without knowing what the deal is.

It could have been an infant creature and Mommy & Daddy CE would have gotten mighty pissed when someone shattered baby. Then they'd come looking for whoever did it (and bring all their friends with them).

And that's just one possible scenario.

 

[Timo]

Indeed. What good will it do to destroy this single entity when freighter shields and colonies still remain vulnerable and when a functional early warning system clearly still doesn't exist? The galaxy will still remain at the mercy of the crystalline species!

It would be truly absurd to think that this entity is unique. With threats like Nomad and the Lights of Zetar, uniqueness was well established. With the Doomsday Machine, Kirk engaged in baseless speculation that, if taken for truth, might indicate there was only one DDM. But with the Space Amoeba and the other lifeforms, it would appear almost certain that there are at least thousands and possibly billions more at large in the galaxy. It would be of highest priority to get good intelligence on the entity, then, and only of secondary importance to actually destroy this particular individual. Certainly sacrificing two or three more colonies would be a prudent measure if it helped establish something useful about the entity, such as how to track it before it reaches its victims.

I'm not sure if Dr Marr lost her scientific credentials at one stroke here. Nor can I be sure whether her actions would be welcomed by relatives to the victims (never mind Data's claim that the victims themselves would have disapproved). But in the end, Dr Marr aided and abetted the enemy, and may be responsible for further deaths unless another crystalline entity can be tracked down and analyzed for its weaknesses.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nardpuncher]

This may be another example of people caring too much about another being because it's big. Like redwood trees and whales get the most attention because well, they're, just...big.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I don't see where it matters if the CE was sentient, or if it realized that its victims were. All that does matter, are the end results: This thing is dangerous. It kills indiscriminately. And defending against it is extremely difficult.

Given those things, the logical alternative is to kill it - before it kills you. That's one of the most basic rules of existence. It's pure self-defense, which is an absolute right.

The shark analogy doesn't hold up. We know where sharks live, and those places can be avoided. The CE, on the other hand, can go anywhere it wants. It would be very hard, if not impossible, to hide from such a thing. If sharks could fly through the air and appear in the skies of any major city on Earth, you're damn right we'd hunt them down and kill them all.

Certainly sacrificing two or three more colonies would be a prudent measure if it helped establish something useful about the entity

Are you serious? You would intentionally sacrifice human lives just to gather intelligence? Not even a Vulcan would be that cold-blooded.

 

[Charlie Kelly]

I think Picard and Data where right. They should have tried to communicate with it first and get it to stop peacefully. If communication failed then they could have destroyed it in self-defence. It makes no sense to kill a potentially sentient creature without first exhausting the alternatives.

Charlie

 

[Tactical Drone]

great white sharks occasionally kill people but u don't see them being hunted to extinction.
just because an animal is considered dangerous doesn't mean u kill it on sight

Great white sharks don't kill billions on a planetary scale. In 2005 and 2006, 8 people were killed. I am not trying to downplay their deaths as insignificant, but as I said great white sharks don't kill millions and billions at a time. Any normal animal, even if it's considered dangerous, doesn't kill billions at a time. The comparing of the CE to "dangerous animals" doesn't apply because of the MASSIVE difference in the scale of those killed. The CE needed to be destroyed because obviously it couldn't be reasoned with.

 

[Rhaenys]

The CE needed to be destroyed because obviously it couldn't be reasoned with.

But that's not true, they were not sure. And there was no evidence to support your conclusion. Actually, they have just started a kind of communication, when Dr. Marr killed the entity.

 

[Renvar]

In my opinion, there's just too little information to objectively decide if the C.E deserved to be destroyed. Was Dr. Marr's decision to arbitrarily end the life of a possibly sentient being justified? No. As far as I know, her status as an expert on the C.E. doesn't give her the authority to kill something, sentient or not, on a whim. Certainly it does not give her the right to do so with the motive of seeking revenge, as she repeatedly stated.

Dr. Marr was there on a mission of scientific discovery. She abused her authority as a scientist when she destroyed the C.E. What she did is akin to a surgeon intentionally killing someone (or something, as sentience is still in question) they were operating on because they (it) had done something to hurt them. I would expect her career as a scientist to be over.

This may be another example of people caring too much about another being because it's big. Like redwood trees and whales get the most attention because well, they're, just...big.

I disagree. Many of the issues here could also potentially be related to the nanites in "Evolution". The difference in that case is, we know for a fact the nanites were sentient, and that they recognized us as sentient. The fact that Dr. Stubs was not apparently disciplined for killing the nanites in the upper core (as they allowed him to continue working on the stellar explosion mission) is a matter that could be argued in the same way as I have previously.