Spacedock: When Was It Built?

[WalkinMan]

I still think that the upsize scale thing which happened with TNG is not so believable, that they went from the spacedock doors that dwarfed the original 1701 to the same scale and yet the E-D looks tiny. Playing Star Trek: Bridge Commander one got the sense of piloting a Galaxy class ship out of there, that the TNG Spacedock was the size of a small moon.

IMO what they realistically could have done is enlarged the doors, but to build such a massive structure that is many, many times the size of a Galaxy class starship was a bit extreme to me. Especially having the same size and configuration, kinda like the B'rel vs. K'vort Bird of Preys.

 

[Cary L. Brown]

This kind of ties in with the STARFLEET WENT REPUBLICAN notion of post TMP, that form and function aren't necessarily related, that Starfleet wanted something that looked good in PR shows rather than spaceframe functionality. Who cares what goes on there, it looks REALLY BIG. Who cares if the ships can't get out if somebody pulls the power plub on the dock, it looks REALLY BIG.

"Starfleet went Republican?"

Seriously, guys... is it REALLY NECESSARY to play "I hate the other guys and if you're one of them and I'm attacking you in the process, screw you!" tone?

In this comment, you say essential that "Republicans are about looking good in PR rather than getting the job done."

Which is entirely untrue, entirely nonsensical, and frankly pretty fucking stupid to say.

I get soooo tired of hearing that sort of inane bullshit. I really, really do. Please try to refrain from that in the future.

 

[Computer]

While any where else id probably agree with Trevanian here im forced to agree with Cary, just because I come to Trek BBS to discuss Trek things.

I dont see why we just cant view space dock and matching starbases as a city in space concept. Also has it ever been established anywhere if these "Shroom" bases can move? obviously not warp capable but atleast have thrusters? Also what is all the stuff on the top of the bay? are they buildings or just communication equipment?

 

[trevanian]

This kind of ties in with the STARFLEET WENT REPUBLICAN notion of post TMP, that form and function aren't necessarily related, that Starfleet wanted something that looked good in PR shows rather than spaceframe functionality. Who cares what goes on there, it looks REALLY BIG. Who cares if the ships can't get out if somebody pulls the power plub on the dock, it looks REALLY BIG.

"Starfleet went Republican?"

Seriously, guys... is it REALLY NECESSARY to play "I hate the other guys and if you're one of them and I'm attacking you in the process, screw you!" tone?

In this comment, you say essential that "Republicans are about looking good in PR rather than getting the job done."

Which is entirely untrue, entirely nonsensical, and frankly pretty fucking stupid to say.

I get soooo tired of hearing that sort of inane bullshit. I really, really do. Please try to refrain from that in the future.

So you'd prefer I use a lot more wordage to explain how TREK went from its origins in Kennedy-era liberalism to ... something else? I thought using shorthand rather than delivering a diatribe would be preferable to most.

To be honest, I thought about using the word conservatism, but figured somebody would mistake it for a comment on conservation.

If you want more on this line of thought regarding what happened with Starfleet in the TWOK era (not mentioning politics), there's another thread I participated in today where I mentioned the notion of Jack Sowards that Starfleet abandoned the 'boldly go' notion in favor of just defending existing realm in the time of TWOK, and that this would hit Kirk right between the eyes, as what he had dedicated his life to was being discarded (the same type of notion, though redone for cold war similes, was enacted to modest effect in TUC.) editaddon, link to other discussion http://trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=60238&page=3


It's about the only thing I can figure that justifies the paranoid feel of SFS, with all that "sir I don't think that's a matter you should be discussing in public" feel and the stronger than usual component of incompetence among fleet captains. I guess you can justify it with 'make something the audience relates to' but I think you can strike a balance between that and 'make something the audience will ASPIRE TO.'

 

[Computer]

Why dont we all just settle down and see if we can figure out what the sphere at the bottom of the mushroom might contain.

 

[Lyon_Wonder]

Even after the introduction of space dock in the later 23rd century, starfleet kept on using smaller starship docks past TMP and into the TNG era. The 1701-B in Generations wasn’t launched from space dock, and neither were TNG-era ships we’ve seen on screen. In VOY’s Relativity we see starships in various stage of repair or construction in several open docks. Obviously Utopia Planetia has more extensive facilities for repair and construction than even space dock. Though 1701-D was too big for space dock as portrayed in the TOS movies, Voyager and the Defiant would likely fit through those doors. And there’s the TNG-era McKinley Station, which orbits Earth too, where 1701-D underwent repairs after the first Borg attack.

 

[Cary L. Brown]

Geez, I figured there'd be some disagreement with my postulation about the Starbase One complex being built over time, and growing and changing over time... but I at LEAST assumed that some of ya would've showed something vaguely resembling an open mind to the idea... (sigh)

Especially since that's the model we see in real life. I think it's a remarkably simple-minded perspective to assume that something like this... literally a city-sized complex... is going to be built at once and never change in any meaningful way.

This thing is literally more massive than Manhattan Island's entire infrastructure plus a large percentage of the surrounding boroughs... and probably has a population larger than most US cities.

 

[Lyon_Wonder]

Geez, I figured there'd be some disagreement with my postulation about the Starbase One complex being built over time, and growing and changing over time... but I at LEAST assumed that some of ya would've showed something vaguely resembling an open mind to the idea... (sigh)

Especially since that's the model we see in real life. I think it's a remarkably simple-minded perspective to assume that something like this... literally a city-sized complex... is going to be built at once and never change in any meaningful way.

This thing is literally more massive than Manhattan Island's entire infrastructure plus a large percentage of the surrounding boroughs... and probably has a population larger than most US cities.

Franz Joseph postulated the idea of a large orbiting station that he called "Starfleet Headquarters". Maybe space dock was a major refit and expansion of that station.

 

[Lyon_Wonder]

Geez, I figured there'd be some disagreement with my postulation about the Starbase One complex being built over time, and growing and changing over time... but I at LEAST assumed that some of ya would've showed something vaguely resembling an open mind to the idea... (sigh)

Especially since that's the model we see in real life. I think it's a remarkably simple-minded perspective to assume that something like this... literally a city-sized complex... is going to be built at once and never change in any meaningful way.

This thing is literally more massive than Manhattan Island's entire infrastructure plus a large percentage of the surrounding boroughs... and probably has a population larger than most US cities.

Franz Joseph postulated the idea of a large orbiting station that he called "Starfleet Headquarters", which is considered non-cannon. Maybe space dock was a major refit and expansion of that station.

 

[Colonel Midnight]

Geez, I figured there'd be some disagreement with my postulation about the Starbase One complex being built over time, and growing and changing over time... but I at LEAST assumed that some of ya would've showed something vaguely resembling an open mind to the idea... (sigh)

Especially since that's the model we see in real life. I think it's a remarkably simple-minded perspective to assume that something like this... literally a city-sized complex... is going to be built at once and never change in any meaningful way.

This thing is literally more massive than Manhattan Island's entire infrastructure plus a large percentage of the surrounding boroughs... and probably has a population larger than most US cities.

I hadn't weighed in yet (RL concerns interfering, dang it) -- but that's how I always envisioned Spacedock and the other facilities' appearances. They're less built, rather more like "grown" over time. Just IMO, of course.

Cheers,
-CM-

 

[Deks]

But then the 'growth' process of such a base would essentially be confined from the time the Federation was founded up until ST III.

The design and everything else about the base itself (apart from the space doors so they can accommodate the Galaxy class) never changed from the mid 23rd century up until the mid 24th century (not counting internal technological refits).

So ... if these bases were supposed to be 'growing' and developing over time ... why didn't we see any additional structures added to them in the mid 24th century?

Besides, it's not that difficult to imagine that SF would design a mushroom sized base as it is in the mid 23rd century, and merely upgrade it's technological abilities over time.
In any way most of the upgrades were done in such a manner to SF ships which virtually never underwent exterior changes too much (transition from TOS to TMP not withstanding because the TOS designs were bare to the bone/plain on the outside with virtually no details).
I also don't count the Galaxy class 3 nacelles version because such a time-line did not come to pass.

While it IS possible that mushroom bases are 'growth' based ... we don't see any evidence to support such a claim.
They first made an appearance in the movie in the mid 23rd century and stayed the same apart from the doors alterations for about a century.
If they are 'growth' based ... then why the substantial pause for 100 years?

 

[FalTorPan]

If they are 'growth' based ... then why the substantial pause for 100 years?

Maybe the Shroombase owners decided to stop growing it?

I have no opinion about the origin and development of Shroombase. I was just curious about what others' opinions are.

 

[Lieut. Arex]

My pet theory is that it started as a captured asteroid converted into a base of operations. Maybe an early attempt at an off-Earth space colony. It was slowly built up until the asteroid was no longer used. The "top mushroom" was build later after ships became too big to use the "middle mushroom."

Then where did the planetoid go? Was it completely converted into Spacedock? To me a complex that large would make much more sense were it built in and around a planetoid as was shown in the concept art of the aborted "Planet of the Titans" movie. Hollowing a rock out gives you the space you'd need for starship construction, etc. as well as protection from the environment without all the effort of fabricating and assembling such a huge facility like Spacedock.

Franz Joseph postulated the idea of a large orbiting station that he called "Starfleet Headquarters", which is considered non-cannon. Maybe space dock was a major refit and expansion of that station.

FJ's Star Fleet HQ wasn't an orbital station around Earth. It was in deep space five parsecs away.

 

[Broccoli]

...It could have been constructed between the time Kirk departed in ST2 and the time he returned in ST3, too, if the builders were hard-working enough.

I bet Tony Stark built it in a cave using scraps.

 

[Computer]

The evolution concept for Earth space dock still doesn't explain the existence of several other bases of the same design elsewhere in the Federation. I's unlikely 4 or 5 space stations (not guaranteed to be built by humans) would evolve the same way.

 

[Deks]

If they are 'growth' based ... then why the substantial pause for 100 years?

Maybe the Shroombase owners decided to stop growing it?

It's a possibility, but nothing on-screen indicates the shrooms were 'growth' based projects to begin with.
In my opinion, they were designed in early to mid 23rd century and constructed just after TOS transitional refit phase because the technology at the time permitted construction of such large scale objects.
It fits the profile after all along with everything else.
After that, the bases original design is left as it is with technology inside it being continuously upgraded along with the space-frame/hull replacement programs to extend their life-spans if needed.

 

[Jimmy_C]

Geez, I figured there'd be some disagreement with my postulation about the Starbase One complex being built over time, and growing and changing over time... but I at LEAST assumed that some of ya would've showed something vaguely resembling an open mind to the idea... (sigh)

Especially since that's the model we see in real life. I think it's a remarkably simple-minded perspective to assume that something like this... literally a city-sized complex... is going to be built at once and never change in any meaningful way.

This thing is literally more massive than Manhattan Island's entire infrastructure plus a large percentage of the surrounding boroughs... and probably has a population larger than most US cities.

I agree with you - in fact I posted something very similar right before your post!!!

 

[Jimmy_C]

My pet theory is that it started as a captured asteroid converted into a base of operations. Maybe an early attempt at an off-Earth space colony. It was slowly built up until the asteroid was no longer used. The "top mushroom" was build later after ships became too big to use the "middle mushroom."

Then where did the planetoid go? Was it completely converted into Spacedock? To me a complex that large would make much more sense were it built in and around a planetoid as was shown in the concept art of the aborted "Planet of the Titans" movie. Hollowing a rock out gives you the space you'd need for starship construction, etc. as well as protection from the environment without all the effort of fabricating and assembling such a huge facility like Spacedock.

I assumed it started as that concept art, but over time entirely consumed the rock. It isn't hard to imagine that it was originally more economical to use the asteroid as a base of operations. Later it became more advantageous to use standard hull and shield technology.

 

[Colonel Midnight]

The evolution concept for Earth space dock still doesn't explain the existence of several other bases of the same design elsewhere in the Federation. I's unlikely 4 or 5 space stations (not guaranteed to be built by humans) would evolve the same way.

Actually, I would think just the reverse -- Standardization is a great thing to be able to maintain. Like the old adage says, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Cheers,
-CM-

 

[Tallguy]

This kind of ties in with the STARFLEET WENT REPUBLICAN notion of post TMP, that form and function aren't necessarily related, that Starfleet wanted something that looked good in PR shows rather than spaceframe functionality. Who cares what goes on there, it looks REALLY BIG. Who cares if the ships can't get out if somebody pulls the power plub on the dock, it looks REALLY BIG.

I'd like to point out that in TMP Kirk (who has just been through a TRANSPORTER which should be the be-all end-all in identification) has to prove his ID when he beams up to Scotty's spacestation. Also in Roddenberry's novel of TMP Kirk's first thought when Vejur's energy bolt hits the Enterprise and he is paralysed by the noise is "How do I tell Adm. Nogura that we need to base a weapon on this?" Also in the novel Kirk has a brain implant that is kept secret from the public for PR purposes.

Republican, indeed.

Sadly, I'll have to chime in that if Spacedock exists at all, it would have been there for a while, I would think. But that could easily have been between TMP and TWOK. It's my second least favorite thing about TSFS. Starfleet being monumentally DUMB is my first. But since the 1960's creative staff figured they were all Republicans, that makes sense. (Starfleet was usually none too bright in TOS as well.)