Had Nog challenged the "captain" either with disagreement or rightful claim to command, he and Jake would have been spaced.
Red Squad and the Valiant
- Thread starter PhoenixIreland
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^
Maybe so and that would be a fine reason to not challenge the Captain. However, the episode needs to present Nog having that thought within itself in order for that to be a valid reason for why Nog didn't challenge the Captain. Or any other reason. Since the episode does not present within itself any thoughts from Nog about why he won't challenge the Captain, there is no valid canonical reason, therefore it's bad writing and there's no getting around that.
Maybe so and that would be a fine reason to not challenge the Captain. However, the episode needs to present Nog having that thought within itself in order for that to be a valid reason for why Nog didn't challenge the Captain. Or any other reason. Since the episode does not present within itself any thoughts from Nog about why he won't challenge the Captain, there is no valid canonical reason, therefore it's bad writing and there's no getting around that.
I thought the actor's presentation of Nog's hesitant and deferential manner in speaking to the Red Squad folks presented things nicely without some dialogue to hit me over the head with the fact that Nog didn't have the self-confidence (he was a recent graduate and still looked up to these guys) to challenge them.
Honestly, I don't see any weak writing here.
I agree. We don't always need exposition to hit us over the head. Sometimes we, as the audience, need to fill in the gaps ourselves. I think Nog's suspicions may have been there but dulled by his hero worship of Red Squad, despite the misguided role they played in the aborted coup of Admiral Leyton. As I said earlier, it was like Lord of the Flies in space. -- RR
But as it states in the Deep Space Nine Companion (page 571) it's hard for seasoned actors to pull off Starfleet Military roles, so even more so, for the younger ones
Starfleet uses naval ranks; the Bajoran Militia is an army.
A navy Captain is equivalent in rank to an Army Colonel.
how exactly would a cadet outrank a Lt Commander?
Also: However foolish the Red Squad cadets were, the Klingons probably hailed them as heroes. From the Klingon POV, Red Squad gave their lives in battle against a superior enemy. What more honorable death could there be?
The question really ought to be how exactly would a cadet outrank an ensign. It is said in Valiant that because Watters has a captain tell him that he is in charge means that hes a captain unless relieved by another one. That means that Nog, who is an actual COMMISSIONED officer with a rank, defers to Watters and has to call him "sir". By that logic, if a lieutenant came aboard, Watters would still be in charge. If an LT. Cmdr like Worf came aboard, Watters would still be in charge. Its a stupid concept that the audience has to swallow blindly for the episode to work and its why i personally think its one of the worst of the series.
That was my major problem with that episode--I don't know how Nog would've given in to a cadet. The only explanation I can think of (and I'm not sure)...was Nog's rank a field commission, or had he already graduated the Academy? Not that it's an excuse in my mind, but I'm wondering if perhaps Nog had not completed his Academy training and may not have developed all of the maturity one would normally expect of a graduated Starfleet officer, thus making him more susceptible to a display of charisma from Watters.
No matter what, though, it still doesn't work.
Valiant was probably the worst DS9 episode Ron Moore ever wrote.
Come on! I hate when people say they liked/hated something without explaining why.
That is not true. A superior officer (at least in the modern US Navy) can assume command of the ship if necessary - but they must be of Command level rank.
AFAIK, Nog's rank of Ensign was indeed bestowed upon him in the field.
Certainly he hadn't had time to complete the usual four-year curriculum. Still, the first time he appears with the Ensign pip ("Favor the Bold"), he does so from off camera: the pip isn't explicitly given to him by Sisko or some other off-Academy person or organization. Nog says "They made me an Ensign" and then "If only my classmates at the Academy could see me now", neither of which quite establishes that the commission wouldn't have come over the usual channels or would be "field" in the usual sense. Many a nation in war has hastened the commissionings of its young officers that way.
Indeed - although the definition of "Command level" may vary from military to military. Certainly the examples where Ensign Nog ("Valiant") or Lieutenant Logan ("Arsenal of Freedom") fails to wrestle command from the man put in charge would be logical and consistent both internally and as regards real-world practices. The question here is only over whether Watterson really was "the man put in charge" and why Nog didn't challenge him over that rather outrageous claim - and I'd say the episode answers that question rather sufficiently if not explicitly.
Timo Saloniemi
Indeed - although the definition of "Command level" may vary from military to military. Certainly the examples where Ensign Nog ("Valiant") or Lieutenant Logan ("Arsenal of Freedom") fails to wrestle command from the man put in charge would be logical and consistent both internally and as regards real-world practices. The question here is only over whether Watterson really was "the man put in charge" and why Nog didn't challenge him over that rather outrageous claim - and I'd say the episode answers that question rather sufficiently if not explicitly.
Timo Saloniemi
Nog was an Academy Graduate according to Sacrifice of Angels.
Quite right. As a matter of fact, it was an obliquely clever way of demonstrating that the Federation was indeed experiencing, as Vreenak later put it, "a manpower shortage."
^ There's nothing to say though that he wasn't an Academy Graduate either though and not just a field commission. He was serving in his training tour according to dialogue in the fifth season when he returned to the station and it was said that happened at the end of an academy tour. Maybe he was on some sort of advanced training exercise or something.
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