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Red Squad and the Valiant

I think the original pitch of this episode was to have Kira be rescued by the Valiant. But then it was quickly realized that the episode's premise wouldn't work simply because Kira would've beaten Red Squad back down to freshmen, all by herself, and probably with a smile on her face.

So yeah, Nog's naivete is definitely the defining factor of this episode. It could've been handled better for sure, especially on the Red Squad side.
 
Hehe, I would've liked to see Kira put the smackdown on the Red Squad cadets. Yup, with a smile on her face!!! :)
 
They may have ignored Kira since she was not a starfleet officer?

But she'd probably find some way to takeover the ship against their will anyway, or sabotage it requiring them to return back, something like what she did in "Defiant".

And those cadet actors were really really awful.
Especially, Courtney Peldon.
At least, she was actually wearing clothes in this episode. Unlike real life.

Yeh but Waters was hot :drool:

I would hope that if someone like Worf or Riker had come aboard they would have seen the sence to give them the chair as they had far more experience than the whole ship of cadets put together, Riker fought the Borg for cryin out loud.

I can imagin in their delduded minds they would have still thought their field commissioned chain of command would mean Watters would still be in charge, but again with Riker being the XO of the federation flagship would the Valiant XO stand asside?

More of an interesting question, what if it had been Picard or Sisko (or any other Starfleet Captain) on that Runabout.

If Picard was on the runabout he would have chewed Waters out of it like he did with Crusher over the Nova Squad incident, for going AWOL, and probably would have taken the ship back and demanded Waters be expelled.

They should have had a refrence to Nog being able to take command, the Arsnel of freedom was involving commissioned officers not cadets and a full officer, though it's a good point.
He was just too in awe of them, he didn't consider himself superior to them, even though he outranked them he still didn't see himself as senior, he was probably too afraid to challenge Waters.

As for Red Squad the fact that they were an elite unit meant they had so much smoke blown up their assess by other cadets and by the brass that they did not recognise the limits of their own abilities.
Giving them control of an advanced warship even with supervision was a very bad idea, as it just fed this problem even more.

There are some real errors in judgment on the part of everyone. I think Jake may have unwittingly done Watters a favor by giving the crew a hesitant enemy to rally against.

For myself, I'd surely like to think that Starfleet stopped with the super-cadet thing. I once went after the post-Valiant events in a fic (needs revising) but I'd buy a pro-novel that made a stab at all this as well. I think Nog was in for another disappointment, though. His urging that Jake 'just tell the truth' about what happened I found a little insulting. Jake has faults, but sugar-coating or bending the truth didn't seem to be among them, as far as I ever saw. If the truth be told, then Jake's article would not be very kind to Red Squad at all.

Exactly, if you'll recall during that Klingon seige Jake was able to do something Waters was not: recognise his own limits and weaknesses, and own up to them.

The way Waters was going on I wonder if he would even have stopped if he had destroyed the dominion ship, he probaly would have kept going untill he got the crew killed, all for the sake of unit prestege, very Nick Locarno of him.

"Oh, the folly of youth." 'Nuff said.

BTW: Who else hates the Valiant's XO?

Yes, she was the XO, yet when Waters is killed she just looks around and sits there sayng almost nothing untill shes killed, when she was supposed to immediatly take command, look at "Tears of he Prophets" when Sisko suddenly collapses Kira jumps up and takes over right away.
 
Here's a minor point that seems to split most 'Valiant' viewers I know of : IYO, had Nog truly been 'cleansed' of his hero-worship by ep's end? Jake's article could be handled any number of ways (I made it reluctantly harsh), but Nog seemed so far into Watters being great ('led us off a cliff' seems a grudging concession to reality itself) that I wonder if anything short of a fluff or rah-rah-rah job on Jake's part would placate him.

Edit : Maybe I should replace 'cleansed' with 'learned his lesson?'
 
He says "we let ourselves blindly follow Waters"....he was blindly following right up untill it was time to abandon ship, then suddenly came to his senses and takes charge...

They perhaps should have shown a scene with Sisko repremanding him for not taking command and ordering them back to federation space.
 
Here's a minor point that seems to split most 'Valiant' viewers I know of : IYO, had Nog truly been 'cleansed' of his hero-worship by ep's end? Jake's article could be handled any number of ways (I made it reluctantly harsh), but Nog seemed so far into Watters being great ('led us off a cliff' seems a grudging concession to reality itself) that I wonder if anything short of a fluff or rah-rah-rah job on Jake's part would placate him.

Edit : Maybe I should replace 'cleansed' with 'learned his lesson?'

I think Jake was a tad underutilized in this episode. His sole purpose was to be the other side of Nog's conscience, which is a strong enough reason to be in the episode. however, while the story makes it clear (imo) that Jake could've done everything in his power and the result would be the same, I don't think Jake came across as very strongly written. Get that across and then there might be a clearer, more divisive opinion on Jake's influence upon Nog.

With that said, I'm pretty impressed with how this episode was a major change for Nog's character arc as a whole. Geeze, does that boy suffer (maybe he's been taking notes from O'Brien)!
 
OK... This is one I don't understand on many levels.

First, I dont' think Captain Ramirez has the authority to give a battle field promotion to his own rank, so technically I am pretty sure that Watters could have gone no higher than a Commander. At that point in time, he becomes Acting Commander Watters, and as an acting Commander, he has full authority over Nog, or Worf for that matter. We saw Picard promote Wesley to Acting Ensign and at that point in time, Ensign Crusher could order around all the non-coms and cadets. Kira was made an Acting Commander, Chakotay, Torres, Seska and other Maquis were made "Acting officers" by Janeway.

Secondly, what if Watters was not promoted, but merely given the billet of Captain. (In real life, Warrant and Junior Officers are given commands as needed...) Well, in that case, the moment that Nog steps aboard, as an Ensign, he outranks Cadet Watters and can assume command at his will.

Thirdly, it was mentioned that what if they had returned with the scans... no doubt they would have been labeled heroes... but imagine if they had destroyed that ship and then returned to the fleet!
 
OK... This is one I don't understand on many levels.

First, I dont' think Captain Ramirez has the authority to give a battle field promotion to his own rank, so technically I am pretty sure that Watters could have gone no higher than a Commander. At that point in time, he becomes Acting Commander Watters, and as an acting Commander, he has full authority over Nog, or Worf for that matter. We saw Picard promote Wesley to Acting Ensign and at that point in time, Ensign Crusher could order around all the non-coms and cadets. Kira was made an Acting Commander, Chakotay, Torres, Seska and other Maquis were made "Acting officers" by Janeway.

I doubt Ramirez has that authority as well, but it could've been easy for Ramirez to just say "Watters, you're now in command" and for Watters to completely misinterpret his dying wish. Or for Watters to take advantage of a dying officer. Based on what we've seen of him, I'd think either option is within his character.

On another note, the episode sort of hints that Watters was hiding the Valiant from Starfleet. After all, at the beginning, Jake and Nog just left a starbase when they were rescued by the Valiant, which would back up some of the earlier posts/theories saying that Watters wanted to keep his command as long as possible.
 
OK... This is one I don't understand on many levels.

First, I dont' think Captain Ramirez has the authority to give a battle field promotion to his own rank, so technically I am pretty sure that Watters could have gone no higher than a Commander. At that point in time, he becomes Acting Commander Watters, and as an acting Commander, he has full authority over Nog, or Worf for that matter. We saw Picard promote Wesley to Acting Ensign and at that point in time, Ensign Crusher could order around all the non-coms and cadets. Kira was made an Acting Commander, Chakotay, Torres, Seska and other Maquis were made "Acting officers" by Janeway.

I doubt Ramirez has that authority as well, but it could've been easy for Ramirez to just say "Watters, you're now in command" and for Watters to completely misinterpret his dying wish. Or for Watters to take advantage of a dying officer. Based on what we've seen of him, I'd think either option is within his character.

On another note, the episode sort of hints that Watters was hiding the Valiant from Starfleet. After all, at the beginning, Jake and Nog just left a starbase when they were rescued by the Valiant, which would back up some of the earlier posts/theories saying that Watters wanted to keep his command as long as possible.

Indeed he could have just flown the ship back to that very starbase.
For all we know he was lying, and Ramirez said "get the ship back to a starbase"
 
The truth is he could have said pretty much anything, certainly he gave Watters command but I doubt he said "take the other Cadets behind enemy lines and find that Dominion ship!"

Its likely he said something like "your the Captain now" and then Watters and the rest of Red Squad took that litterally and with there "we are the best and will do our duty" attitude they went for it.

On the other hand Starfleet did send the ship those orders, and its not the first time they have sent a "boat load of children" into a potentially dangerous situation.

So on one hand we have the "should have turned round and gone home" attitude, but on the other hand they did their duty and what they were ordered to do they just didnt know when to quit because of pride and arrogance, but how many of the 'heroes' have done the same thing and just got lucky.
 
They got lucky several times over. They just continued to press that luck until it gave out.
 
Its half starfleets fault for blowing so much smoke up their asses to begin with.
I doubt normal cadets would have been to arrogent.
 
Again, I would like to think that this finally brought home the message to Starfleet the idea that every writer knows : You cannot sit down and say : Today I will create brilliant cadets. Wes alone should have shown them that a very young very brilliant person is still first and foremost very young, and apt to stumble where a young person usually does.
 
There have been many great "young" military leaders throughout history. To deny your group an excellent leader merely because that leader is young is an arrogant and silly thin to do
 
Nobody's saying exclude all young people from leadership. But there are mistakes any age group - or any group of people- will make, that another will not. I have a feeling that if Captain Ramirez had lived, and been forced to make do with Red Squad, they all would have shined. They had pulled off a couple of miracles. They deserve that much in terms of kudos. But Watters and his bunch mistook themselves for those miracles, and that was where they fell.
 
Has anyone ever wondered when the ships orders came in, before or after the Officers were killed? From what Watters said they Cardassian attack was a complete suprise and they way Watters says "the orders were addressed to the late Captain" could be taken to suggest it was after he died
 
I always took it as the orders were given to the Captain [alive] and Watters chose to continue the missino
 
That's one more thing Watters could and probably would be lying about.

I Assume that the Captain gave Watters these orders on either the Bridge or in Sickbay where there were witnesses

...Or then these were his whispered dying words amidst the noise and smoke of the fateful battle. Even the flight recorder might not have picked them up - and if it did, Watters might have chosen to withhold the tapes (such recordings obviously aren't readily available for people lacking in authority, as they have seldom been used for reviewing recent events in "mystery" stories), or to destroy them (and perhaps blame the battle damage), with nobody in the inexperienced crew the wiser.

Timo Saloniemi
 
OK... This is one I don't understand on many levels.

First, I dont' think Captain Ramirez has the authority to give a battle field promotion to his own rank, so technically I am pretty sure that Watters could have gone no higher than a Commander. At that point in time, he becomes Acting Commander Watters, and as an acting Commander, he has full authority over Nog, or Worf for that matter. We saw Picard promote Wesley to Acting Ensign and at that point in time, Ensign Crusher could order around all the non-coms and cadets. Kira was made an Acting Commander, Chakotay, Torres, Seska and other Maquis were made "Acting officers" by Janeway.

Secondly, what if Watters was not promoted, but merely given the billet of Captain. (In real life, Warrant and Junior Officers are given commands as needed...) Well, in that case, the moment that Nog steps aboard, as an Ensign, he outranks Cadet Watters and can assume command at his will.

Thirdly, it was mentioned that what if they had returned with the scans... no doubt they would have been labeled heroes... but imagine if they had destroyed that ship and then returned to the fleet!


A few problems here. First, I never got the impression that Wes' promotion included the ability to boss people around. I think Picard made up the title on the spot and it was more of an education with responsibility tool seeing as he never wore a real uniform until he was literally given a commission. They did keep him at ensign level though instead of Lieutenant. My impression is that when you are given a commission, it has to be at a rank approximately equal to your demonstrated level. That would explain why a Colonel in a Bajoran militia gets a commssion of captain. Think of it in terms of spanish placement in college. You already took basic spanish in high school so they put you in spanish 2 or 3 in college because you have demonstrated skills. Watters is a cadet who was in the position of being the highest ranked person aboard. You know that when he gets back to civilization that hes not still going to be captain of the Valiant. Hes going back to school to finish up. Nog is a different story. He actually has a full commission of ensign. As such, he should be the highest ranked officer aboard. He gets back to civiliazation, hes not still going to be a Lt Cmdr. Hes back to ensign and returning to his actual assignment. According to all laws of common sense, Nog should have assumed command and ordered the Valiant back.
 
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