SPOILER ALERT -- Review Myriad Universes: Infinity's Prism

[Dancing Doctor]

Christopher, I have a question, based off of the annotations you provided.

Spoiler: Places of Exile annotation

In the annotations you provided for Chapter 2, you said "Megon is loosely based on a certain prominent American politician of Irish descent who condemns immigrants in the same terms that were used in the past to condemn Irish-Americans, apparently without recognizing the irony (or hypocrisy, as the case may be)."] I thought that you had done a nice commentary on the hypocrisy and irony of politicians criticizing immigrants, especially when many of the scenes you wrote dealing with such issues could, if you replace the names and descriptions of locations and species, easily reflect verbal ripostes between Senators and Congresspeople.

But who is the "prominent American politician of Irish descent" you mention? I've been wracking my brain trying to figure that out.

Spoiler: Answer to the question

Pat Buchanan has been known to use such arguments in his anti-immigration rhetoric.

Gah, I should have known.

Thanks!

 

[ialfan]

I just got Infinity's Prism in the mail from amazon yesterday and I've read all of A Less Perfect Union and am halfway through Places of Exile.

So far both stories have been fantastic. I really enjoyed all the TOS references in ALPU and the ENT reference in POE.

 

[Mistral]

And now I finish the the trilogy. I liked the final tale-but it felt like the end wasn't done yet. That having been said-it wasn't a bad story but it didn't evoke the horror of a Khanate ruling the stars for three centuries that one would expect. Sorry. IMO, only, of course but there you have it. I would love to read a continuation of this tale-the open endedness left it ripe for a sequel.

Mr. Bennett-Having had time to read this forum and reflect on your reply-I retract 99% of what I said that might have been construed as negative-but the "godhood" thing wasn't directed at Kes-I was fine with that. It was more the very neat and positive outcome to so many threads that jarred me. Like, "well, some bad things happened but in the end it all worked out well and everybody is making nice, their problems solve." That is an oversimplification of my reaction-and you've already addressed the argument earlier in the thread so no sweat-I understand you are just an optimistic guy by nature.

Please don't get me wrong-I understand how a story is your baby, a source of pride and love. All 3 of you did great overall and its the first book I've burned through in a while-these days life is slowing down my reading() so I can't just read a book in an afternoon anymore. But I found time for this and await the next.

 

[Christopher]

One issue I initially had with Seeds of Dissent was that Khan (the real one) was portrayed as a far more brutal and cruel figure than he was described in "Space Seed," where Kirk and McCoy described him as the best of the supermen, with no massacres under his rule. But then I remembered Chairman Mao, who started out as an idealist and a populist, but who later in life did more and more dreadful things that often betrayed his own early principles. Power does have a way of corrupting. So in a different timeline where Khan remained in power for more than a few years, it's entirely credible that he would've become more ruthless and cruel over time.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

"Space Seed" Khan seemed plenty cruel. Look how he treated Marla McGivers, for example.

 

[Christopher]

^^You totally missed my point. It's a matter of degree. Look at what they said in the episode: "He was the best of the tyrants and the most dangerous." "There were no massacres under his rule... No wars until he was attacked." So yeah, obviously he wasn't a saint, obviously he was capable of ruthlessness, but the point is that we were explicitly told that there were limits to his brutality, limits that the main-universe Khan did not cross during his brief reign but that the victorious Khan in Seeds of Dissent did cross in subsequent years.

 

[Reanok]

I just finished A less than Perfect Union it was nice to how Enterprise and TOS were nicely blended in this story and T'Pol was sure put through alot in this story.

Spoiler: Infinitiy's Prism spoiler

I wondered at the ending if T'Pol returned to Vulcan to live out the last few years of her life on Vulcan it was an open eneding that was kind of left as a mystery to what was her fate at the end of the story.

I liked Christopher Pike and Kirk in this story. That Kirk reminded T'Pol of Trip I really liked the scenes they had together really powerful the last one when T'Pol tells him about what she dealt with living on Earth and what happened to Trip's . Also started the Voyager story and it's interesting to see the different paths the characters are taking. B'lanna's on a downward spiral.I haven't had time to finish the second story but I've really liked this series so far.

 

[DarthPipes]

I really liked the use of Pike too. I'm glad the character is getting a second life in the books and comics, not to mention the upcoming film.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

^^You totally missed my point. It's a matter of degree. Look at what they said in the episode: "He was the best of the tyrants and the most dangerous." "There were no massacres under his rule... No wars until he was attacked." So yeah, obviously he wasn't a saint, obviously he was capable of ruthlessness, but the point is that we were explicitly told that there were limits to his brutality, limits that the main-universe Khan did not cross during his brief reign but that the victorious Khan in Seeds of Dissent did cross in subsequent years.

Which does make sense (going back to your earlier post).

I wonder if it's the legend of that brutality (as well as a few starship commanders) that's really holding the Khanate together, then. IIRC, the current leader of the Khanate is, putting it mildly, "no Khan Noonien Soong". His portrayal reminded me of a desperate man clinging to the precedent set by his ancestors and predecessors-almost like Kim Jong-Il, minus the bad hairdo, clothing, size, and paranoia, and with a lot more power and resources.

 

[sithlord]

Just wanted to chime in how much I enjoyed Myriad Universes, especially Pieces of Exile. IMHO, this is direction Voyager, as a series, should have gone. It was just so much more satisfying than the series ever was for me and fulfilled the wasted potential of VOY's premise. Thank you, Mr Bennett for the wonderful "what if."

 

[Reanok]

Pieces of Exile I like the fact Kes and Neelix were in the story and Annika was more Human in the story was nie to see the different choices and paths the characters took. B'Elanna espaecially went down a very dark path.I like how Species 8472 were shown to be a truly alien and fluidic space was so unique.Good story I thought it was well written and the ending nice to see that some of the crew was still together.

 

[Christopher]

^Thanks!

 

[Thrawn]

I finished the other two stories in this, after reading Places Of Exile first, and I have to admit I wasn't quite as impressed with either of them. I really, really, really loved T'Pol in A Less Perfect Union, since I never liked her in the show one bit but this really made me believe in and care about the character, but I thought most of the rest wasn't really all that exciting. I always figured that the point of these stories was to reflect on / inform our views of the characters in the real universe, and the taking of familiar characters and just rearranging them doesn't really have much appeal to me; the only part of this story that I felt Meant Something was T'Pol.

Oddly, despite being even more disconnected from the normal timeline, I found a lot more of that kind of thing in Seeds Of Dissent, particularly in the rebels (Ezri, Kira, and Dukat were absolutely fascinating), but also in the I thought quite clever addition of Rain Robinson to the story. It was obscure, but definitely expanded my mental image of the character, and made me think. But then (and I realize this was partially the author's intent, but either way) right as the book was getting to the first scene that I was really looking forward to, Picard facing down Bashir, it stopped. I wanted another 50 pages or so at least. Oh well.

Places Of Exile was perfectly paced and structured and did a lot more than I was expecting any of these stores to do; I was really impressed. But the other two were a little underwhelming, I thought.

 

[James Swallow]

One issue I initially had with Seeds of Dissent was that Khan (the real one) was portrayed as a far more brutal and cruel figure than he was described in "Space Seed," where Kirk and McCoy described him as the best of the supermen, with no massacres under his rule.

But don't forget that one of the themes of Seeds of Dissent is "history lies".

As I imagine it, in the 'true' timeline, Khan's pre-"Space Seed" life followed the plotline Greg Cox gives us in his novels; in the SoD timeline that's not how it happened. There was no 'secret' Eugenics War, no covert battles being fought behind the scenes, it was all out in the open and a hell of a lot more brutal. And as you point out, power corrupts...

 

[Christopher]

^^Well, it works either way. Personally, I don't really believe that the Eugenics Wars in Greg's books were anywhere near as covert as the conceit suggests. I mean, they're the sort of thing that we insular Americans with our trivia-obsessed news media could overlook, because they didn't directly affect us, but there's no way a billion and a half people in South Asia could've been unaware that they were being ruled by Khan Noonien Singh.

The way I read SoD was that the Wars started out much the same way but just went on longer and became more overt over time, with Khan growing progressively more ruthless as he became entrenched in power. That way, there's a reason why Khan was more brutal in the SoD timeline. And I did get the impression, correct me if I'm wrong, that the major events in SoD like the conquest of America took place after 1996, when the EWs ended in the main timeline.

Perhaps the difference is that Gary Seven wasn't around in the SoD timeline and thus was unable to intercede in the wars?

 

[Gatekeeper]

It's a common misconception that the Many-worlds theory means there's an infinite number of universes. It isn't even true that every possible arbitrary permutation must happen. Even with a large number of divergent timelines, the same laws of causality apply to all of them. Every event in every existing timeline is the result of a chain of causes leading up to it, with each event in that chain occurring for a reason rather than completely at random, and that places limits on what can actually happen, as can limiting physical conditions. So you can't just make up some random, absurd situation and say "this happens in some timeline because everything does." That's just not how it works.

So, essentially, another timeline isn't going to form in the wake of a decision to wear a blue shirt instead of a red shirt, correct? It would take something much more major to create a stable, separate timeline — for example, perhaps there's a reality a vibration or so away where Sept. 11, 2001, was averted, hmm?

I've always been intrigued by the possibiities of other timelines but, if they're "out there," they'd have to be the result of major divergences, not minor ones, right?

Regarding the first "Myriad Universes" novel itself — well, I thoroughly enjoyed all three of of the stories. That said, "Places of Exile" was definitely the most well-developed alternate reality. In "Seeds of Dissent," I was left with the impression that someone had read S.M. Stirling's Drakaverse novels.

Anyway, good stories all around, and I'm definitely going to buy the second novel when it comes out.

Gatekeeper

 

[Christopher]

So, essentially, another timeline isn't going to form in the wake of a decision to wear a blue shirt instead of a red shirt, correct? It would take something much more major to create a stable, separate timeline — for example, perhaps there's a reality a vibration or so away where Sept. 11, 2001, was averted, hmm?

It's not a question of magnitude. It's not like there's some threshold that has to be reached. I'm just saying that there's nothing in the Many-worlds model that requires every possible state of reality to occur; it simply says that the universe can exist in many reality states at once.

Nor is it a question of human decisions, though that's the conceit authors of fiction use to make it relatable. To the laws of physics, a human being is just a bunch of particles. The way the Many-worlds model works is, quantum particles exist in a superposition of multiple states at once -- such as a radioactive atom being simultaneously decayed and undecayed -- and the paradox is resolved by having the universe split into two parallel, non-interacting states, one which reacts to the particle as though it were decayed (so Schroedinger's cat dies) and the other which reacts to it as undecayed (so the cat lives).

I've always been intrigued by the possibiities of other timelines but, if they're "out there," they'd have to be the result of major divergences, not minor ones, right?

They don't have to be. It can be a difference of a single particle, according to the theory. But in Trek-fictional terms, I like to assume that nearly-identical timelines tend to merge back together, which helps to explain how the timeline can still be the same after minor changes as seen in episodes like "Past Tense" and "Trials and Tribble-ations." So in that context, there is a certain threshold of difference. Still, the triggering divergence can be tiny, as it was in Places of Exile, where a single choice of words made all the difference.

 

[Gatekeeper]

So, essentially, another timeline isn't going to form in the wake of a decision to wear a blue shirt instead of a red shirt, correct? It would take something much more major to create a stable, separate timeline — for example, perhaps there's a reality a vibration or so away where Sept. 11, 2001, was averted, hmm?

It's not a question of magnitude. It's not like there's some threshold that has to be reached. I'm just saying that there's nothing in the Many-worlds model that requires every possible state of reality to occur; it simply says that the universe can exist in many reality states at once.

Nor is it a question of human decisions, though that's the conceit authors of fiction use to make it relatable. To the laws of physics, a human being is just a bunch of particles. The way the Many-worlds model works is, quantum particles exist in a superposition of multiple states at once -- such as a radioactive atom being simultaneously decayed and undecayed -- and the paradox is resolved by having the universe split into two parallel, non-interacting states, one which reacts to the particle as though it were decayed (so Schroedinger's cat dies) and the other which reacts to it as undecayed (so the cat lives).

Wouldn't it be interesting to "watch" that process in action? (Of course, from what I understand, it cannot be observed without causing it to settle into one of its many states, correct?)

I've always been intrigued by the possibiities of other timelines but, if they're "out there," they'd have to be the result of major divergences, not minor ones, right?

They don't have to be. It can be a difference of a single particle, according to the theory. But in Trek-fictional terms, I like to assume that nearly-identical timelines tend to merge back together, which helps to explain how the timeline can still be the same after minor changes as seen in episodes like "Past Tense" and "Trials and Tribble-ations." So in that context, there is a certain threshold of difference. Still, the triggering divergence can be tiny, as it was in Places of Exile, where a single choice of words made all the difference.[/QUOTE]

Is that related to the "braided-rope" method of timelines that I've read about from other sources (i.e. the timelines are like threads of rope, each individual, but if they're close enough in similarity, they form a "rope" of sorts)?

Anyway, all of this is absolutely fascinating.

Gatekeeper

 

[James Swallow]

In "Seeds of Dissent," I was left with the impression that someone had read S.M. Stirling's Drakaverse novels.

Never read them. Are they good? On the subject of alternative histories, someone recently recommended Stirling's Peshawar Lancers to me and I was thinking about picking it up...

Christopher said:

Perhaps the difference is that Gary Seven wasn't around in the SoD timeline and thus was unable to intercede in the wars?

Actually, I did think about dropping a reference in somewhere about Khan having killed Gary Seven early on and taken his alien technology for his empire, but I couldn't find a way to work it in to my satisfaction.

 

[Christopher]

Wouldn't it be interesting to "watch" that process in action? (Of course, from what I understand, it cannot be observed without causing it to settle into one of its many states, correct?)

Well, the gist of Many Worlds (or technically, the Everett-Wheeler interpretation of quantum mechanics) is that the particle doesn't really settle into a single state at all; it exists in all states at once, but the universe reacts to each one separately. You, the observer, also exist in many states at once, but there's no interaction between the states, so each facet of you perceives itself as though it's in a universe where the particle "collapsed" into a single state. Harry explained how that works on pp. 310-311 of Places of Exile.

(And in the other interpretation Harry discussed, the one I favor in real life, the particle still exists in all states at once, but the many particles making up the brain or measuring device react individually to it by going into different compound states that average out to a single macroscopic state, so the brain/device, and by extension the universe, reacts to the particle as if it settled into a single state, even though it didn't.)

Is that related to the "braided-rope" method of timelines that I've read about from other sources (i.e. the timelines are like threads of rope, each individual, but if they're close enough in similarity, they form a "rope" of sorts)?

Not familiar with that. Though it does sound vaguely similar to the "sheaf" model I used to delineate the three main time tracks in the novel.