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Remastered Shots vs. Original Shots

Are there still people who don't get, that replacing the original effects is not the purpose of the whole remastering effort but a byproduct?
TPtB decided to release the show with HD resolution. Because the original effects would simply look like crap after the remastering process they needed to be replaced. And while the FX team was at it anyway they decided to replace the constant stock footage with new shots.
If you're not interested in HD resolution there's nothing to stop you from putting your standard DVD into your player and watch the original version. Then this is not meant for you, and there is nothing wrong with that, too. Just don't expect other people to endure crappy picture quality when the whole point is to have an optimal resolution and crystal sharp pictures.
Also don't expect theatrical effects like what we will get in the new movie. There is not enough budget obviously. In fact I believe there is not even as much budget for this as Enterprise or Voyager had as the most recent comparable Trek shows.

Oh, please. These days amateurs on their home computers can produce theater grade special effects. It shouldn't be difficult, even on a limited budget, to produce at least GOOD special effects for professionals. Problem is, the theater Enterprise will probably be as flat and cartoony as just about all other SF movies with starships in the past 30 years.
 
oh well, go ahead then and create superior FX on your home computer. When your done, sell them to Paramount or CBS or whoever is in charge. I'm sure they will happily accept your improvements if not outright hire you.
Should be a dream come true for any Trekki to be able to do that.
And all the Fans will thank you for it, I'm sure.
 
Are there still people who don't get, that replacing the original effects is not the purpose of the whole remastering effort but a byproduct?
TPtB decided to release the show with HD resolution. Because the original effects would simply look like crap after the remastering process they needed to be replaced. And while the FX team was at it anyway they decided to replace the constant stock footage with new shots.
If you're not interested in HD resolution there's nothing to stop you from putting your standard DVD into your player and watch the original version. Then this is not meant for you, and there is nothing wrong with that, too. Just don't expect other people to endure crappy picture quality when the whole point is to have an optimal resolution and crystal sharp pictures.
Also don't expect theatrical effects like what we will get in the new movie. There is not enough budget obviously. In fact I believe there is not even as much budget for this as Enterprise or Voyager had as the most recent comparable Trek shows.

Oh, please. These days amateurs on their home computers can produce theater grade special effects. It shouldn't be difficult, even on a limited budget, to produce at least GOOD special effects for professionals. Problem is, the theater Enterprise will probably be as flat and cartoony as just about all other SF movies with starships in the past 30 years.

:rolleyes:

Yes, there are hobbyists out there how can create fantastic looking, movie-grate CGI.
CGI as in computer generated IMAGE. It is one thing to set-up a scene and then wait 18 hours for a single frame to get rendered in the necessary resolution but a whole different affair when you want to render a whole animation.

The rest of your post is just stupid rambling.
 
Are there still people who don't get, that replacing the original effects is not the purpose of the whole remastering effort but a byproduct?
TPtB decided to release the show with HD resolution. Because the original effects would simply look like crap after the remastering process they needed to be replaced. And while the FX team was at it anyway they decided to replace the constant stock footage with new shots.
If you're not interested in HD resolution there's nothing to stop you from putting your standard DVD into your player and watch the original version. Then this is not meant for you, and there is nothing wrong with that, too. Just don't expect other people to endure crappy picture quality when the whole point is to have an optimal resolution and crystal sharp pictures.
Also don't expect theatrical effects like what we will get in the new movie. There is not enough budget obviously. In fact I believe there is not even as much budget for this as Enterprise or Voyager had as the most recent comparable Trek shows.

Oh, please. These days amateurs on their home computers can produce theater grade special effects. It shouldn't be difficult, even on a limited budget, to produce at least GOOD special effects for professionals. Problem is, the theater Enterprise will probably be as flat and cartoony as just about all other SF movies with starships in the past 30 years.

:rolleyes:

Yes, there are hobbyists out there how can create fantastic looking, movie-grate CGI.
CGI as in computer generated IMAGE. It is one thing to set-up a scene and then wait 18 hours for a single frame to get rendered in the necessary resolution but a whole different affair when you want to render a whole animation.

The rest of your post is just stupid rambling.

Go watch "Star Wreck - In the Pirkinning". Amateur created. By a guy in his living room. Makes the average Hollywood SF starship film with battles look pathetic. Then come back here and dare to repeat the above.
 
You have absolutely no proof that guy did it in his living room. You're just believing the hype, mate.
 
I haven't seen it, but I believe you when you say it's a great art piece.
but I'm not sure how important it is who or when it was done.
One extremely important piece of the puzzle is the time frame.
Take one episode and recreate the FX on a truly photo realistic level within a week or two, which I think is about all the time they have before they have to take on the next episode.
They might have a slight advantage of manpower, but is that enough?
 
You have absolutely no proof that guy did it in his living room. You're just believing the hype, mate.

:lol: Yeah, I own the DVDs, watched the extras that including 'Making ofs' that show us how and by who it was done. But you know, when the creators make a 'making of', and put it in the extras on their DVDs, they lied through their teeth every step of the way.

I haven't seen it, but I believe you when you say it's a great art piece.
but I'm not sure how important it is who or when it was done.
One extremely important piece of the puzzle is the time frame.
Take one episode and recreate the FX on a truly photo realistic level within a week or two, which I think is about all the time they have before they have to take on the next episode.
They might have a slight advantage of manpower, but is that enough?

More like computer power. A SFX house should have dedicated, high powered computers, that should be able to render the stuff in no time at all, and then have it done with multiple artists instead of one. Exactly how good they could have gotten it nobody knows, but trust me, it could have been a lot better.
 
One extremely important piece of the puzzle is the time frame.
Take one episode and recreate the FX on a truly photo realistic level within a week or two, which I think is about all the time they have before they have to take on the next episode.

This makes a hash of your earlier post about needing new shots because the show is in HD. If the work is being done at this seaQuest grinditout speed, then what makes the new stuff 'qualify' as being HD?

The original shots, whether there are matte lines or not, were shot on 35mm -- which is a shitload higher quality than any standard-use electronic / digital system (the phantom and dalsa are still pretty new) ... I've seen original eps -- a couple that had the quadruple-duped elements that are very worn -- projected on a good sized screen and they looked more than decent ... but the bits of remastered (damn that stupid term, I'd call these pussywhipped versions with the alterations) I've seen rarely have good blacks and dynamic range, and simply look like painted over shots, trading scale and presence and visual credibility for a softer gentler image (which is also not in keeping with a lot of TOS original life-action, excluding shots of the babes or Kirk when he is really tired.)

Remastered has been a step away from making the liveaction live with the vfx, not a step towards it. This reminds me of what happened with the BLU RAY of PATTON, a film shot in a spectacular process called dimension 150.
When the idiots doing the bluray saw that there was some visible film grain (DUHH!), they figured they should ELIMINATE it, since young filmgoers somehow equate grain with image defects. Well, in doing so, they also eliminated all the insanely fantastic detail captured in the film. If you watch it with a more than decent-sized TV, everybody's face now takes on a smooth cg facelift look ... they wrecked an incredible movie, while doing a transfer that should have honored the way it looked in the theater instead of basically smearing vaseline over the cinematographer's work.
 
Then there's no point of a remastering, and they should have just left things alone.

Then TOS could never be viewed in HD, and one day that standard will be what our eye demands. Without HD, TOS will fall out of syndication packages and will go the way of all those b/w shows of the 50s.

The point of remastering the SPFX was so that the live-action footage, when screened in HD - and how amazing does that look - would not have to be interspersed with such obvious 60s FX.
 
It shouldn't be difficult, even on a limited budget, to produce at least GOOD special effects for professionals.

Then why aren't the big studios farming out work to these guys on a regular basis, and why aren't the amateurs turning pro, getting agents and shopping around their skills, undercutting all the big SPFX houses?

Because it's not a simple as you seem to suggest? Or because the studios are indulging in a conspiracy to keep prices high?
 
Then there's no point of a remastering, and they should have just left things alone.

Then TOS could never be viewed in HD, and one day that standard will be what our eye demands. Without HD, TOS will fall out of syndication packages and will go the way of all those b/w shows of the 50s.

The point of remastering the SPFX was so that the live-action footage, when screened in HD - and how amazing does that look - would not have to be interspersed with such obvious 60s FX.

There's absolutely no reason why TOS couldn't be viewed in HD, you're buying into hype, and YOU should know better. That's like saying every film that has dissolves done on weak stock (which is pretty much everything up till a decade or two back) is unwatchable because you can see a quality change just before the dissolve happens. Does THAT take you out of the story? No more than a 'cigarette burn' for a reel change in my case.

B&W shows from 50s ... you're saying they are going to fall into obscurity why, because they're in B&W? Shoot, I think HAVE GUN WILL TRAVEL will become more famous once more folks start seeing it now, and because short-attention span folks will flock to a half-hour drama w/ good writing. It can't be due to inferior cinematography, the shows for the most part look good (except for kinescopes and the like.)

What is the most obvious fake looking stuff in TOS? The live action planetscapes (which look just as bad or worse in early TNG ... try HIDE & Q for unwatchable awfulness.) If any kid who is jaded about modern fx can watch fake exteriors on TOS without eyes rolling up in his head, then a few matte lines shouldn't bother them.
 
I don't have a problem with the new effects. As I said when I started the thread, I rather like them -- although I like the original effects at least as much.

What I dislike is the misuse of the word "remastered." Replacing and even redesigning visual effects sequences does not constitute remastering. It's more like the work of "mixalot" DJs who combine pre-existing tracks with new embellishments. The end result is often quite entertaining, but it's by no means a "remastering" of the source material.

In syndication, the show still seems to be called just "Star Trek," and I dislike that as well. The show with its redone effects is fun in its own way, but it's not Star Trek as it was originally created.

I wish the marketing folks at CBS Digital had come up with a distinct and not technically incorrect title for the original show with its reworked visuals.
 
What is the most obvious fake looking stuff in TOS? The live action planetscapes (which look just as bad or worse in early TNG ... try HIDE & Q for unwatchable awfulness.) If any kid who is jaded about modern fx can watch fake exteriors on TOS without eyes rolling up in his head, then a few matte lines shouldn't bother them.

I would argue that virtually all space shots in Star Trek -- TOS, "TOS-R," TNG, ENT, whatever -- look fake, and deliberately so due to stylistic choices. Unfortunately many people consider 200x fake styles to be more realistic than 196x fake styles.
 
I would argue that virtually all space shots in Star Trek -- TOS, "TOS-R," TNG, ENT, whatever -- look fake, and deliberately so due to stylistic choices. Unfortunately many people consider 200x fake styles to be more realistic than 196x fake styles.

Exactly.
 
Then there's no point of a remastering, and they should have just left things alone.

Then TOS could never be viewed in HD, and one day that standard will be what our eye demands. Without HD, TOS will fall out of syndication packages and will go the way of all those b/w shows of the 50s.

The point of remastering the SPFX was so that the live-action footage, when screened in HD - and how amazing does that look - would not have to be interspersed with such obvious 60s FX.

That's complete bull. The SFX were filmed in 35mm just like the rest of the episodes. The SFX would have looked just as good as the rest of the eps in HD. The only thing you might get, is lines that held the ship or something, that weren't visible in SD, might become visible now. And I stress "might". The thing is, the idiots looked at the SFX, and didn't see cartoony 2D crap with bad lighting of the past 30 years, considered it too bad for HD, and went to produce the cartoony 2D crap.

What is the most obvious fake looking stuff in TOS? The live action planetscapes (which look just as bad or worse in early TNG ... try HIDE & Q for unwatchable awfulness.) If any kid who is jaded about modern fx can watch fake exteriors on TOS without eyes rolling up in his head, then a few matte lines shouldn't bother them.

I would argue that virtually all space shots in Star Trek -- TOS, "TOS-R," TNG, ENT, whatever -- look fake, and deliberately so due to stylistic choices. Unfortunately many people consider 200x fake styles to be more realistic than 196x fake styles.

Then they're all morons who can't watch at something long enough to notice.

The difference between 1960s Star Trek SFX, (as well as the first few movies SFX), is that they spent they're time created the illusion of a three dimensional solid object with mass; despite looking at a 2D screen. They did this with lighting and changing/moving camera angles. The result was, that SFX looked more 3D and often more real than even simply people walking in front of a camera.

From Star Wars onward (minus the first few Star Trek movies), space shots were produced completely different. Gone was any attempt to makes things look like actual 3D objects, everything became over-lit, "cool", bright ships flying about as if they were nothing.

What this difference in approach produced, can be seen today quite easily. Look at a simple film, then put in 3D video game, or 3D CGI movie. You'll see, in a 3D video game/movie, monsters, cars, humans, and such, are all produced in such a matter to produce the effect of a three dimensional object, and a three dimensional space, despite that you're looking at 2D screen. These video games and CGI movies, often give a far greater illusion of looking like a three-dimensional world than even live action filmed actors, and especially any SFX.

Once you realize this, and noticed that 1960s SFX actually went to create this 3D illusion, and see it on screen, looking at the 2D, brightly lit "cool" stuff that came with Star Wars will never look good again. And you see this especially with Star Trek Special Edition, when you actually know the old effects.
 
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Then there's no point of a remastering, and they should have just left things alone.

Then TOS could never be viewed in HD, and one day that standard will be what our eye demands. Without HD, TOS will fall out of syndication packages and will go the way of all those b/w shows of the 50s.

The point of remastering the SPFX was so that the live-action footage, when screened in HD - and how amazing does that look - would not have to be interspersed with such obvious 60s FX.

That's complete bull. The SFX were filmed in 35mm just like the rest of the episodes. The SFX would have looked just as good as the rest of the eps in HD. The only thing you might get, is lines that held the ship or something, that weren't visible in SD, might become visible now. And I stress "might". The thing is, the idiots looked at the SFX, and didn't see cartoony 2D crap with bad lighting of the past 30 years, considered it too bad for HD, and went to produce the cartoony 2D crap.

Here's some direct, HD shots of the SFX, without remastering, from the S1 TOSR Bonus disk.

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1xbonushd/spacelift/spacelifthd164.jpg
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1xbonushd/spacelift/spacelifthd194.jpg
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1xbonushd/spacelift/spacelifthd195.jpg
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1xbonushd/spacelift/spacelifthd223.jpg
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1xbonushd/spacelift/spacelifthd224.jpg
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1xbonushd/spacelift/spacelifthd226.jpg
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1xbonushd/spacelift/spacelifthd227.jpg
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1xbonushd/spacelift/spacelifthd238.jpg
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1xbonushd/spacelift/spacelifthd262.jpg
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1xbonushd/spacelift/spacelifthd353.jpg

Most are pretty bad, but several shots (especially the pilot shots) are just as good as what we've been getting. I'd be willing to bet that, once remastered with the rest of the footage, they'd fit just fine (especially since some of the SFX are re-used often, therefore one could take the best copies and reuse them for everything.)
 
Guys, I know this is a touchy subject for a lot of people, but could you dial back the heat level just a bit?
 
Some episodes truly benefit from the new effect. Tomorrow is Yesterday and The Doomsday Machine for example actually are more exciting and TiY's slingshot effect now finally makes sense.

My only mental issue is that too often the obviously older photography clashes with the bright, shiny and brand new CGI. It's like they are two totally different TV shows spliced together sometimes (The Babylon 5 Syndrome). This is especially true of the first batch of episodes done.
 
Then TOS could never be viewed in HD, and one day that standard will be what our eye demands. Without HD, TOS will fall out of syndication packages and will go the way of all those b/w shows of the 50s.

The point of remastering the SPFX was so that the live-action footage, when screened in HD - and how amazing does that look - would not have to be interspersed with such obvious 60s FX.

That's complete bull. The SFX were filmed in 35mm just like the rest of the episodes. The SFX would have looked just as good as the rest of the eps in HD. The only thing you might get, is lines that held the ship or something, that weren't visible in SD, might become visible now. And I stress "might". The thing is, the idiots looked at the SFX, and didn't see cartoony 2D crap with bad lighting of the past 30 years, considered it too bad for HD, and went to produce the cartoony 2D crap.

Here's some direct, HD shots of the SFX, without remastering, from the S1 TOSR Bonus disk.

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1xbonushd/spacelift/spacelifthd164.jpg
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1xbonushd/spacelift/spacelifthd194.jpg
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1xbonushd/spacelift/spacelifthd195.jpg
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1xbonushd/spacelift/spacelifthd223.jpg
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1xbonushd/spacelift/spacelifthd224.jpg
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1xbonushd/spacelift/spacelifthd226.jpg
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1xbonushd/spacelift/spacelifthd227.jpg
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1xbonushd/spacelift/spacelifthd238.jpg
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1xbonushd/spacelift/spacelifthd262.jpg
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1xbonushd/spacelift/spacelifthd353.jpg

Most are pretty bad, but several shots (especially the pilot shots) are just as good as what we've been getting. I'd be willing to bet that, once remastered with the rest of the footage, they'd fit just fine (especially since some of the SFX are re-used often, therefore one could take the best copies and reuse them for everything.)

Great comparison. If you wanted to split the difference between whole cloth CG and the originals, though, you could just recomposite the old elements digitally, assuming some or all are available. Then you'd have the clarity of 35mm film elements w/o 1966 mattelines.
 
That's complete bull. The SFX were filmed in 35mm just like the rest of the episodes. The SFX would have looked just as good as the rest of the eps in HD. The only thing you might get, is lines that held the ship or something, that weren't visible in SD, might become visible now. And I stress "might". The thing is, the idiots looked at the SFX, and didn't see cartoony 2D crap with bad lighting of the past 30 years, considered it too bad for HD, and went to produce the cartoony 2D crap

For someone who seems to think he knows a little about visual effects, this guy seems to be unaware of the process of optical printing and duplication, especially of the buildup of contrast, grain, and dirt, as well as the accompanying loss of sharpness and clarity with each succeeding generation. This was especially noticeable with the ship shots, since they were copied over and over during the series.

Even someone who doesn't know about optical effects could see a standard-def DVD of the original Star Trek and notice that the space scenes are noticably grainer, fuzzier, dirtier, and have an overall lower image quality than the rest of the scenes. In high-def, the difference would have been even more apparent.

This isn't a slam against the guys who did the original effects. They did fantastic work. Similarly, it's not to say that CBS-D's work was perfect, although I did like it a lot. This is merely annoyance with wannabes who think theirs is the only valid opinion.
 
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