Moon-walker claims alien contact cover-up

[Brolan]

No, we don't understand everything, but we are working on it every day.

You can poke fun if you want, you can call us arrogant for daring to say we understand a lot about the universe, but I would call us confident. Confident because we have figured out a lot and we will figure out the rest.

 

[Zachary Smith]

No, we don't understand everything, but we are working on it every day.

You can poke fun if you want, you can call us arrogant for daring to say we understand a lot about the universe, but I would call us confident. Confident because we have figured out a lot and we will figure out the rest.

My point is that people keep claiming we've figured out "a lot", but how can you claim that when you cannot quantify HOW much there IS to figure out?

We may have only scratched the surface. 2500 years ago the Greeks thought they'd figured out "a lot" when they claimed everything in the universe was compose of Earth, Air, Fire, or Water.

I'm NOT "poking fun". I'm trying to deflate rampant HUBRIS. Tell me how much there IS for us to know and tell me how much of it we've figured out. I'll even make it an easy prospect and meet you half way. If ANYONE can demonstrate we've figured out 51% of what there is to know, I'll throw in and
agree we've figured out "a lot".

Until that time, without knowing what we DON'T know, we can't begin to measure what amount we DO know. It's a nonsense claim that can't be backed up to suggest we have "the big picture" or we've figured out "a lot". As in my earlier example, 500 years ago no one had the vaguest notion the enitre electromagnetic spectrum existed. What MIGHT YET be out there that we haven't even speculated about? I'm betting THAT'S where you'll find your "a lot".

 

[broberfett]

I believe him.

Now if he would only name some names. You know, like Sargent Joe So and So knows about them or some sort of details. Somebody else we can question would be nice.

 

[Jeri]

^But the thing is, we don't know how many people in a position of power know about it. It doesn't have to be a vast conspiracy.

According to the son of "The Day After Roswell" author, Phillip Corso, not many people in the government were involved and covering it up. IMO, in fact, people do not want to believe. I don't myself, but I keep an eye on the news.

Betty and Barney Hill's abduction case was predated by the Antonio Villas Boas one in Brazil in 1957.

I recently bought Dr. Edgar Mitchell's book, "The Way of the Explorer: An Apollo Astronaut's Journey Through the Material and Mystical Worlds," and am interested to see what he says.

 

[Zachary Smith]

^But the thing is, we don't know how many people in a position of power know about it. It doesn't have to be a vast conspiracy.

According to the son of "The Day After Roswell" author, Phillip Corso, not many people in the government were involved and covering it up. IMO, in fact, people do not want to believe. I don't myself, but I keep an eye on the news.

Betty and Barney Hill's abduction case was predated by the Antonio Villas Boas one in Brazil in 1957.

I recently bought Dr. Edgar Mitchell's book, "The Way of the Explorer: An Apollo Astronaut's Journey Through the Material and Mystical Worlds," and am interested to see what he says.

Phillip Corso, in my opinion, was a fraud--at least as far as his claims of retro-engineering alien technology are concerned. The provenance of the technologies he cites are too well established and the linage of development too organic in the sense that one discovery and engineering success led to the next to be anything but the natural development from progress. His claims of alien artifacts being the source for these developments is a disservice to the genius and committment of those who REALLY worked hard and from whom he tries to rob credit.

 

[Jeri]

Zachary Smith, yeah, I did not mean to debate Corso; just meant to add something to the secrecy discussion. Personally, I agree with what was said earlier: it's not been kept a secret. People discuss it all the time; hence, no secret.

 

[Balthier the Great]

I doubt alien visitation for a couple of reasons.

First, the distances are too far for casual visits. At the very least we're talking about a couple hundred million miles. To travel that distance requires tons of energy. That's even assuming that FTL travel would be practical at their level of technology. I think we might be talking about a 20+ year flight -- assuming of course FTL.

Secondly, why are aliens so into the naughty bits of cattle and having snoo-snoo with rednecks? I mean really, we can get a hell of a lot from a simple cheek cell swab, and we can clone just about any animal or plant on the planet. What they're doing doesn't sound like biologists doing a study, it sounds like fraternity pranks of the third kind. They aren't very careful about keeping themselves secret either. They love to put on shows for earthlings. This behavior again looks less like something professional astronauts would do and more like teens joyriding.

It just doesn't add up. We have a distance that even with FTL technology should take years to cross, and aliens who no nothing about modern (to us) biology, and seem to like showing off for the cameras. Either we're being visited by alien teens on spring break or the whole thing is a fraud. I vote for fraud, because I don't see how anything else makes sense.

 

[scotthm]

It just doesn't add up. We have a distance that even with FTL technology should take years to cross

I suppose that would depend on just how much FTL your ship is.

...and aliens who [k]no[w] nothing about modern (to us) biology, and seem to like showing off for the cameras. Either we're being visited by alien teens on spring break or the whole thing is a fraud.

I've always wondered why aliens would put so many lights on their flying saucers when they're obviously trying to be discreet.

---------------

 

[Zachary Smith]

Zachary Smith, yeah, I did not mean to debate Corso; just meant to add something to the secrecy discussion. Personally, I agree with what was said earlier: it's not been kept a secret. People discuss it all the time; hence, no secret.

I understand. The problem is when someone like Corso, with questionable relability in one area, gets thrown into the mix, everything he has said or been connected with becomes suspect. Damaged credibility doesn't allow for the option of picking and choosing which aspects of an unreliable subject's claims are accurate (methods of the Bush Adminstration not withstanding).

 

[TerriO]

For all we know, our descendants will harness the power of suns or dark energy or higher dimensions or who knows what to create wormholes or space warps. It's obviously speculation

Exactly. Speculation. Fiction.

Please define your terms, because I don't see an absolute equation between speculation and fiction like this statement insinuates.

We've speculated based on circumstantial evidence for years that there was water on Mars.

We've speculated that there were liquid hydrocarbons on the surface of Titan.

Neither of those were fiction.

It's not ridiculous to speculate, but that's all it is. That's my whole point--that all this talk about aliens visiting Earth is speculation until you can produce concrete evidence, and I don't mean the testimony of people who've heard about things second or third hand, or who may be prone to misinterpretation of their surroundings. Extraordinary evidence needs to accompany extraordinary claims.

So, basically, negative until proven positive?

Again, water on Mars, liquid hydrocarbons on Titan. Would you have called those speculation a week ago? This is almost like a Schroedinger's Cat scenario. It doesn't exist until we have proof of existence? If we can't see it, we can't be sure it's there?

That's talking in some pretty serious absolutes, and we've seen pretty conclusive evidence over the years that the universe doesn't exactly deal in such absolutes.

I think it's at least as probable that any technologically advanced civilizations that may have arisen have long since destroyed themselves, been destroyed by natural disaster, or depleted their natural resources to the point that they never left their own solar systems. Maybe only 1 in 1,000,000,000 technological civilizations are able to traverse the stars. The nearest may be three billion LY away and having trouble just investigating their own corner of their own galaxy.

You see, if we're all just speculating about what we can imagine then the sky's the limit. We don't need to worry about reality and just can have ourselves a good old time.

---------------

Why are you imposing human mores on alien species? Yeah, humanity tends to be warlike, but that hardly dictates what any other sentient life form in the universe would do.

We develop in the environment in which we're raised. Humanity came to dominance in an aggressive "kill or be killed" environment. Aliens aren't automatically going to develop in the same kinds of environments, and the aren't going to automatically have the same reactions to stimuli that humans do. We're talking different environments, different circumstances, different everything.

I mean, we can take the nature versus nurture aspect and go crazy with it, but ultimately, with so many variables at play, how can anyone say for certain what another technologically advanced civilization might or might not do? They could implode like humanity probably will, or they could flourish and find technological advances the likes of which our grandchildren will never see.

 

[Jeri]

...Damaged credibility doesn't allow for the option of picking and choosing which aspects of an unreliable subject's claims are accurate...

People often operate like that, to be sure; but they will be wrong sometimes.

 

[scotthm]

Exactly. Speculation. Fiction.

Please define your terms, because I don't see an absolute equation between speculation and fiction like this statement insinuates.

When speculation is based solely on our imaginations I would say that for all practical purposes it's fiction.

We've speculated based on circumstantial evidence for years that there was water on Mars.

We've speculated that there were liquid hydrocarbons on the surface of Titan.

Neither of those were fiction.

No, but we've had evidence, and good reason to believe so for quite a while. Before we began to gather real evidence it was all purely imaginative speculation and no better than fiction, for all practical purposes.

This is almost like a Schroedinger's Cat scenario. It doesn't exist until we have proof of existence? If we can't see it, we can't be sure it's there?

I think I've made myself clear earlier in this thread that predicting the future is a pretty uncertain thing, so no, we can't be sure about a lot of things that might happen, or that might be. I can't tell you that it is absolutely impossible to travel faster than light. I can tell you that until someone comes up with a practical theory to explain how we might go about travellling faster than light that FTL travel is purely science fiction.

Why are you imposing human mores on alien species? Yeah, humanity tends to be warlike, but that hardly dictates what any other sentient life form in the universe would do.

We develop in the environment in which we're raised. Humanity came to dominance in an aggressive "kill or be killed" environment. Aliens aren't automatically going to develop in the same kinds of environments, and the aren't going to automatically have the same reactions to stimuli that humans do. We're talking different environments, different circumstances, different everything.

You imply that I'm making assumptions, and then proceed to tell me how very different the environments and circumstances of extraterrestrial aliens will be from ours. You don't know that intelligent life can be vastly different from us any more than I know that it can't be. At least we both know what life can be like--it can be like what we find on Earth. Any speculation beyond that is based on something other than observed fact.

how can anyone say for certain what another technologically advanced civilization might or might not do?

We can't, which is why my comment was about my opinion of the probability of aliens travelling about the stars. I didn't say it could not happen, I suggested that I thought it was highly improbable.

I'm a little surprised at how desperately many people want to believe that we're the recipients of frequent alien attention. There is at least a 50% chance that such an encounter would not go well for us. How many tales of alien abduction have ended with the aliens imparting their deep wisdom or advanced technology to the abductees? Kind of makes you wonder what's in it for us.

---------------

 

[FordSVT]

I doubt alien visitation for a couple of reasons.

First, the distances are too far for casual visits. At the very least we're talking about a couple hundred million miles. To travel that distance requires tons of energy. That's even assuming that FTL travel would be practical at their level of technology. I think we might be talking about a 20+ year flight -- assuming of course FTL.

Individual human beings have spent months and years and lifetimes on ships and carts and by foot travelling the world, have risked their lives for scientific discovery and resources and for glory. But it's basically impossible that an alien civilization might undertake similar endeavours?

Secondly, why are aliens so into the naughty bits of cattle and having snoo-snoo with rednecks? I mean really, we can get a hell of a lot from a simple cheek cell swab, and we can clone just about any animal or plant on the planet. What they're doing doesn't sound like biologists doing a study, it sounds like fraternity pranks of the third kind. They aren't very careful about keeping themselves secret either. They love to put on shows for earthlings. This behavior again looks less like something professional astronauts would do and more like teens joyriding.

It just doesn't add up. We have a distance that even with FTL technology should take years to cross, and aliens who no nothing about modern (to us) biology, and seem to like showing off for the cameras. Either we're being visited by alien teens on spring break or the whole thing is a fraud. I vote for fraud, because I don't see how anything else makes sense.

The bit about yokels and anal probes is a stereotype that has little to do with reality and exposes you as someone without much knowledge on this subject. Throw away that perception, it's garbage. Same with stuff about cattle, etc. You don't have to believe in all of the crap surrounding the subject to believe some of it. The rest of your opinion is assigning human motives and behaviours to alien beings. What does or does no make sense to you doesn't necessarily dictate the truth of a situation. Quantum physics doesn't make much sense to anyone sometimes, even the people who study it.

I always wonder why people find it so difficult to believe aliens would be interested in studying or visiting humanity. We've got scientists probing every crack and every underwater depth of the Earth (and other bodies) for every minuscule scrap of life we can find, but the notion that equal or higher beings than ourselves couldn't be bothered to do the same is, quite frankly, idiotic.

 

[scotthm]

The rest of your opinion is assigning human motives and behaviours to alien beings. What does or does no make sense to you doesn't necessarily dictate the truth of a situation.

. . .

I always wonder why people find it so difficult to believe aliens would be interested in studying or visiting humanity. We've got scientists probing every crack and every underwater depth of the Earth (and other bodies) for every minuscule scrap of life we can find, but the notion that equal or higher beings than ourselves couldn't be bothered to do the same is, quite frankly, idiotic.

These two paragraphs of yours seem to be contradictory. Are aliens likely to be motivated by the same things as us or not?

---------------

 

[FordSVT]

I wasn't contradictory at all, and I was expecting this response.

I'm saying that their motives are entirely unpredictable. I'm saying it's possible they might think something like us, I'm saying it's possible they wouldn't. I'm saying that assuming aliens would never have any interest in us at all when we ourselves have a great interest in all other species doesn't make sense. There is precedent for such behaviour in us, we know such behaviour is possible. However, you are the one saying that assuming such behaviour is possible is unlikely. I'm not the one pigeonholing how they might or might not behave, you are.

You can't prove they would never want to come here, it's like proving a negative. They might, they might not, but ascribing human motives to prove that they wouldn't do something is unsupportable.

 

[scotthm]

I'm saying that their motives are entirely unpredictable.

You can't prove they would never want to come here, it's like proving a negative. They might, they might not

How true. I'd be the first to agree that the motives of imagined beings are hard to pin down. And though I can't prove that Earth hasn't been visited by aliens, I also can't prove that plasma creatures don't live in our sun. Should I believe in them too?

---------------

 

[Nedersong]

Credibility doesn't mean anything and only the argument must stand on it's own merit. Why?

Well consider this, Hitler believed in valuing and protecting children.

But because he was an insane madman bent on killing everyone on earth that wasn't a perfect aryan, he has no credibility, and thus the message of valuing and protecting children have been rendered meaningless.

So because the message of valuing and protecting chidlren is now moot, and has no credibility, people shouldn't value and protect children.

 

[FordSVT]

I'm saying that their motives are entirely unpredictable.

You can't prove they would never want to come here, it's like proving a negative. They might, they might not

How true. I'd be the first to agree that the motives of imagined beings are hard to pin down. And though I can't prove that Earth hasn't been visited by aliens, I also can't prove that plasma creatures don't live in our sun. Should I believe in them too?

---------------

I'm not telling you to believe in anything, I'm telling you not to dismiss ideas using illogical arguments.

 

[Zachary Smith]

Credibility doesn't mean anything and only the argument must stand on it's own merit. Why?

Well consider this, Hitler believed in valuing and protecting children.

But because he was an insane madman bent on killing everyone on earth that wasn't a perfect aryan, he has no credibility, and thus the message of valuing and protecting children have been rendered meaningless.

So because the message of valuing and protecting chidlren is now moot, and has no credibility, people shouldn't value and protect children.

When a person's credibility is damaged in one area it can and DOES bring into questions his realibiity as a witness and claims in others. Just because a person tells ONE lie, it doesn NOT necessarily mean that every statement they've ever made is a lie. However, when someone is making extraordinary claims and it can be demstrated (or even reasonably suggested) that they were dishonest in one area, it does NOT reinforce and, in fact, tends to undermine their credibility in all areas.

"Oh, you saw a UFO, this week. And last week Bigfoot ran through your yard. And the week before that you had a tea-party with ghosts that had to end suddenly when you invented a cure for cancer. BTW, how's your wife, MORGAN FAIRCHILD, doing?"

 

[Zachary Smith]

I'm saying that their motives are entirely unpredictable.

You can't prove they would never want to come here, it's like proving a negative. They might, they might not

How true. I'd be the first to agree that the motives of imagined beings are hard to pin down. And though I can't prove that Earth hasn't been visited by aliens, I also can't prove that plasma creatures don't live in our sun. Should I believe in them too?

---------------

Which do you think is more likely to be possible, though? Something that has an observable PRECEDENT in the universe? Or something you pulled out of your ass and made up out of whole cloth?