Did we land on moon?

[FordSVT]

The problem with conspiracy theories like this is that there is no way to disprove them to those who really want to believe them. You could show some people all the proof in the world, open every classified NASA post card send them a f@#%&$g post card from the sea of tranquility and some people would still choose to believe it is all faked.

Same with Roswell, the Government could release every scrap of information, every classified document on that incident whatever it was and if the answer ended up being anything but aliens nobody would believe it, even if it happened to be the truth....I may have just opened up a whole other can of worms by saying this in a science fiction forum...

The Truth IS out there...but nobody really wants to look for it...

The thing with Roswell is that the military and the government played a big part in creating the doubt in people's minds about Roswell because the entire incident has been handled incompetently for 50 years.

The Apollo missions..... NASA just went to the fucking moon!

 

[Zachary Smith]

The problem with conspiracy theories like this is that there is no way to disprove them to those who really want to believe them. You could show some people all the proof in the world, open every classified NASA post card send them a f@#%&$g post card from the sea of tranquility and some people would still choose to believe it is all faked.

Same with Roswell, the Government could release every scrap of information, every classified document on that incident whatever it was and if the answer ended up being anything but aliens nobody would believe it, even if it happened to be the truth....I may have just opened up a whole other can of worms by saying this in a science fiction forum...

The Truth IS out there...but nobody really wants to look for it...

The thing with Roswell is that the military and the government played a big part in creating the doubt in people's minds about Roswell because the entire incident has been handled incompetently for 50 years.

The Apollo missions..... NASA just went to the fucking moon!

The frustrating thing with Rosewell is this though: if there is NO truth to it (and I'm not advocating there is particularly) someone went to a HELL of a lot of trouble and performed serious in-depth research to hoax up the Majestic-12 documents. The sheer amount of research required to make them historically credible with all the of various members and their histories dove-tailing and making sure that many little-known or previously unknown meetings cited in the documents could be corroberated by unimpeachable sources (the fact that meetings occurred--not the subject of those meetings) is phenomenal.

Whatever Rosewell may or may NOT have been, the normal slip-shod, hook-or-crook kind of research normally done by UFO "researchers" didn't happen here. If such documents are fakes, someone must have spent hundreds of man-hours digging through archives to make sure every detail jived because there has been, after twenty years of searching, not a single smoking gun found proving that the events recounted in the papers did NOT happen (ex. some member of the group being out of the country when the papers said he was in a meeting in DC or such).

If the MJ-12 documents are a hoax, it's first rate and I wonder who had the time, means and motive to do that. That would be a story by itself.

 

[Sean Aaron]

The frustrating thing with Rosewell is this though: if there is NO truth to it (and I'm not advocating there is particularly) someone went to a HELL of a lot of trouble and performed serious in-depth research to hoax up the Majestic-12 documents. The sheer amount of research required to make them historically credible with all the of various members and their histories dove-tailing and making sure that many little-known or previously unknown meetings cited in the documents could be corroberated by unimpeachable sources (the fact that meetings occurred--not the subject of those meetings) is phenomenal.

Agreed, something is not right there for me, but the question that needs answering is: if it's not an alien landing cover-up, why not declassify everything about it? A weather balloon? That's the best cover story they could come up with?

 

[Deckerd]

If the MJ-12 documents are a hoax, it's first rate and I wonder who had the time, means and motive to do that. That would be a story by itself.

Hitler Diaries, anyone?

 

[Carpe Occasio]

Roswell didn't become a real flashpoint for UFO conspiracy theorists until after the 1948 Aztec, New Mexico UFO crash was exposed as a hoax. It had many similarities to the now famous Roswell incident. Also, Project Mogul is a plausible explanation for the events at Roswell.

 

[Zachary Smith]

If the MJ-12 documents are a hoax, it's first rate and I wonder who had the time, means and motive to do that. That would be a story by itself.

Hitler Diaries, anyone?

That was about money. AND it was proven to be a hoax in pretty short order.

The MJ-12 stuff does NOT have a direct path to anyone with a monied interest in the matter and a hoaxer would have no obvious way of ensuring a return on the investment made on the effort of manufacturing the hoax. Sure, he could put the stuff together, get it into the public arena, write a UFO book about it and hope to get paid. I doubt though UFO books are THAT lucrative a field and, again, it would be a crap shoot. Some first-rate, VERY high-quality research was conducted to "hoax" these papers. Research which would be time-consuming and expensive and would have tobe done by examining archives in DC and various presidential libraries and several universities. A LOT of time and a LOT of money was spent to falsify these papers, if they are not valid. The detail is such that you just don't get it from cracking open a couple encyclopedias. If you haven't studied the Majestic-12 documents AND, much more importantly than the documents themselves, the RELATIONSHIPS of the people cited to be participants, you probably cannot begin to appreciate the incredible quality of any "hoaxing" done here.

I have a BA in History and I can appreciate the masterful job that was done to "hoax" the MJ-12 documents--IF they are a hoax. The internal consistancy of the histories of the "participants" is extremely well-researched and can be corroberated by many unimpeachable resources. Again, the fact that NO ONE, in 20+ years since those papers appeared, has managed to find an inconsistency demonstrating a flaw in the relationships of over a dozen people, any event to disrupt the time-line and/or the interactions of the "participants" over course of several years indicates a hoax of incredible quality.

Or, there's more to the MJ-12 papers.

SOMETHING very strange went on here. I'm not at all sure it has anything to do with aliens. But there's more than the obvious.

 

[Zachary Smith]

Project Mogul is a plausible explanation for the events at Roswell.

Cause it's Standard Operating Procedure for the USAF to announce the recovery of a crashed "flying saucer" in order to divert attention away from a classified experiment in the remote New Mexico desert and make certain to get as absolutely LITTLE press covereage of the event as possible . . .

 

[Carpe Occasio]

Project Mogul is a plausible explanation for the events at Roswell.

Cause it's Standard Operating Procedure for the USAF to announce the recovery of a crashed "flying saucer" in order to divert attention away from a classified experiment in the remote New Mexico desert and make certain to get as absolutely LITTLE press covereage of the event as possible . . .

It was one man who mistakenly released an incorrect press release, not the USAF. But over the years the Air Force has nurtured UFO stories to divert attention from real life projects like stealth fighters and bombers.

 

[Zachary Smith]

Project Mogul is a plausible explanation for the events at Roswell.

Cause it's Standard Operating Procedure for the USAF to announce the recovery of a crashed "flying saucer" in order to divert attention away from a classified experiment in the remote New Mexico desert and make certain to get as absolutely LITTLE press covereage of the event as possible . . .

It was one man who mistakenly released an incorrect press release, not the USAF. But over the years the Air Force has nurtured UFO stories to divert attention from real life projects like stealth fighters and bombers.

"One man" who--what? Made the story up out of whole cloth? Who,--what? Took seriously something someone told him to report as a joke and never once thought to ask, "you'e bullshitting me?"

One man who--what? Kept his job just fine after issuing such an outlandish press release?

Interesting, to say the least . . .


Early on Tuesday, July 8, the Roswell Army Air Field issued a press release which was immediately picked up by numerous news outlets:[15]
“"The many rumors regarding the flying disc became a reality yesterday when the intelligence office of the 509th Bomb group of the Eighth Air Force, Roswell Army Air Field, was fortunate enough to gain possession of a disc through the cooperation of one of the local ranchers and the sheriff's office of Chaves County. The flying object landed on a ranch near Roswell sometime last week. Not having phone facilities, the rancher stored the disc until such time as he was able to contact the sheriff's office, who in turn notified Maj. Jesse A. Marcel of the 509th Bomb Group Intelligence Office. Action was immediately taken and the disc was picked up at the rancher's home. It was inspected at the Roswell Army Air Field and subsequently loaned by Major Marcel to higher headquarters."

 

[Carpe Occasio]

Here's what the Roswell Daily Record reported in the July 9th issue -


"The balloon which held it up, if that was how it worked, must have been 12 feet long, [Brazel] felt, measuring the distance by the size of the room in which he sat. The rubber was smoky gray in color and scattered over an area about 200 yards in diameter. When the debris was gathered up, the tinfoil, paper, tape, and sticks made a bundle about three feet long and 7 or 8 inches thick, while the rubber made a bundle about 18 or 20 inches long and about 8 inches thick. In all, he estimated, the entire lot would have weighed maybe five pounds. There was no sign of any metal in the area which might have been used for an engine, and no sign of any propellers of any kind, although at least one paper fin had been glued onto some of the tinfoil. There were no words to be found anywhere on the instrument, although there were letters on some of the parts. Considerable Scotch tape and some tape with flowers printed upon it had been used in the construction. No strings or wires were to be found but there were some eyelets in the paper to indicate that some sort of attachment may have been used.”


Rubber, tinfoil, paper, tape, sticks, glue. Doesn't sound like a UFO does it? Maybe it really was this instead -

http://www.csicop.org/si/9507/roswell.html

 

[Zachary Smith]

Here's what the Roswell Daily Record reported in the July 9th issue -


"The balloon which held it up, if that was how it worked, must have been 12 feet long, [Brazel] felt, measuring the distance by the size of the room in which he sat. The rubber was smoky gray in color and scattered over an area about 200 yards in diameter. When the debris was gathered up, the tinfoil, paper, tape, and sticks made a bundle about three feet long and 7 or 8 inches thick, while the rubber made a bundle about 18 or 20 inches long and about 8 inches thick. In all, he estimated, the entire lot would have weighed maybe five pounds. There was no sign of any metal in the area which might have been used for an engine, and no sign of any propellers of any kind, although at least one paper fin had been glued onto some of the tinfoil. There were no words to be found anywhere on the instrument, although there were letters on some of the parts. Considerable Scotch tape and some tape with flowers printed upon it had been used in the construction. No strings or wires were to be found but there were some eyelets in the paper to indicate that some sort of attachment may have been used.”


Rubber, tinfoil, paper, tape, sticks, glue. Doesn't sound like a UFO does it? Maybe it really was this instead -

http://www.csicop.org/si/9507/roswell.html

Clearly, ALL materials any reasonable person would EASILY mistake for a crashed "flying saucer". An understandable error, to say the least . . .

At any rate, the veracity of Roswell aside, there is something very complex and fascinating going on with the MJ-12 stuff. If Roswell was the conventional event described, in a way it makes the Majestic-12 materials all the more curious because of the level of complexity and research that would have been needed to create such a hoax.

EDIT TO ADD: Don't mistake me for an "Aliens Only" advocate RE Roswell. I think it is one possibility. As someone who believes highly in the liklihood of intelligent life elsewhere in the universe, I simply cannot discount the possibility. I am, however, essentially an agnostic on Roswell. If no alien ship crashed, obviously there is another explanation for, not only the events, but everything subsequent that followed. I don't feel that the "accepted" explanations satisfy all the questions, particularly, again, where the MJ-12 documents are concerned.

 

[Meredith]

We did land on the moon, but we did it in the 1950's using stolen alien saucers...

NASA going to the moon was to cover up where we got all the moon rocks from....

 

[dougkeenan]

1950's? Nazis made it to the moon even before that! And they're coming back!!

ironsky.net

 

[anais]

Yes, because I say so.

 

[Zachary Smith]

1950's? Nazis made it to the moon even before that! And they're coming back!!

ironsky.net

MOON Nazis, eh?

I HATE Moon Nazis . . .

 

[Hofner]

Robert A. Heinlein's book Rocket Ship Galileo featured Moon Nazis.

Robert

 

[Carpe Occasio]

See, the moon landings were faked -

 

[Unicron]

Good thing we have Moon Cowboys to whip the Moon Nazis.

 

[darkshadow0001]

See, the moon landings were faked -

You guys are depressing me. Are you actually telling me I live in a country where the government does nothing but lie and patronize us every chance they get? lol

 

[Carpe Occasio]

Patronize? Never!

Oh, by the way, that avatar just screams this -