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Did we land on moon?

Did we land on the moon?

  • Yes...no doubt about it

    Votes: 123 93.9%
  • No....One big hoax

    Votes: 5 3.8%
  • Don't know enough to say...

    Votes: 3 2.3%

  • Total voters
    131
  • Poll closed .
There's a nice website backed by NASA that pisses on the conspiracy people's nonsense very well. It's worth checking out just to tell any bonehead you encounter who believes it because they read it on the internet to F.O.

www.badastronomy.com

Why should I believe anything backed by NASA? They are the ones that faked the moon landing to begin with! ;)
To nip more misinformation in the bud, NASA has nothing to do with the Bad Astronomy website. It is solely the work of Dr. Phil Plait, its creator.

Another thing: Being elected president doesn't make anybody an expert in engineering, physics, or using their brain critically. Clinton's comment is worth no more than Jimmy Carter seeing a UFO.
 
Were you alive in 1969?
What does that have to do with anything?
It would give you a little better perspective on the times if you lived it rather than just read about it.

Well that's a fallacy. Living during a period of history makes a person better qualified to argue a point? The only thing that living during some event does is help give one the "flavour" of what happened but it would hurt massively with the objectivity of looking at the event.

they had a couple of dozen billion dollars (which was worth waaay more then than it does today) and you're telling me they couldn't afford some basic special effects?
You still haven't offered any reason why NASA would need to fake the moon landings, when the technology existed to achieve them.


"I still haven't..."? Where was I asked? Regardless, if evidence presented leads to a conclusion, one does not have to provide a "reason" but if you absolutely want one: the US lost the race to have a satellite in space, it lost the race to put a man in space... the ultimate goal post was the moon and the Soviets had a demonstratively better chance of succeeding in the amazing achievement. So the US did what it did before and did after in situations when they are unable to accomplish something in their interests: they cheated.

Or if they had any super advanced tech such as strings and the ability to do basic visual effects such as slo-mo.
That's crazy - little teensy strings deployed to emulate gaziilions of moondust particles in perfect ballistic arcs? That's simply not credible.

If you are to believe official story than you would know that they "officially" used a black and white Westinghouse Apollo Lunar Television Camera which has a resolution of 220 by 220 with 320 lines per frame and 10 frame per seconds. You couldn't see any moondust with its "perfect ballistic arcs" when the astronauts were in-frame.

Today, someone on their personal computer could fake the footage; they had a couple of dozen billion dollars (which was worth waaay more then than it does today) and you're telling me they couldn't afford some basic special effects?
No even today no one could fake the footage. (And we haven't even gotten to the rocks.) The burden of such claims lies on those making them so go ahead and try, your film will be shot into pieces instantly by grown-ups who know lots more than you.

Yeah, you guys really did a tremendous job so far of shooting down the points I made— oh wait, no you didn't. The statement of President Clinton was just summarily dismissed without cause by creating a strawman with the statement "well Carter said he saw a UFO" and connecting Clinton to it. I was asked for a motive and if I was in the area during the event which, were this a murder, would be important but not so much in this case, and you didn't shoot down any argument, you just asked about the unseen moondust (which I shot down into pieces like so much moondust) and your "shooting down" my statement that a grainy black and white video of men on the moon could now be faked on a personal computer with a declarative statement of "No it wouldn't, we would know because we're smarter than you" which obtusely attacks a strawman using ad hominems to draw an irrelevant conclusion instead of addressing the actual point that with billions of dollars, one would have a lot of money to create a very well done fake video.
 
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Yeah..I know, its that dreaded question again. But its been sometime since some one polled on this.

While at work today, and bored to death, I stumbled upon several conspiracy pages. You know the usual suspects; Who shot JFK-9/11-UFOS-Pearl Harbor-Death of Kenny, and of course..several pages that dispute we even landed on the moon.

They dispute if for many reasons, but I liked these;
We can barely put the shuttle in space, and yet we used Korean War technology to land on the moon...

I like that one

Rob
Scorpio

Yes, we did land on the moon. This question is getting a bit old...
 
instead of addressing the actual point that with billions of dollars, one would have a lot of money to create a very well done fake video.
No, a credible fake can't be done for any amount of money. You can't fake radio telemetry in space either. You can't make fake moon rocks. Smart people like scientists know things about this. And of course there's no need for any such fakes, since the real thing is easier to realize!

BTW, here's some easily seen moondust kicked up by a rover. No way that's done by strings, sorry.

2zizrtj.jpg
 
Wow, a picture. Those are impossible to doctor. I mention stings and you seemed to have fixated on the idea that I was suggesting that strings were attached to the dust and not say the Eagle or astronauts. You can't tie string to dust.

And you just repeated yourself with "a credible fake can't be done for any amount of money" without providing any reason to support your assumption, which is an absolutely ridiculous assumption when you consider those viral ads made on shoestring budgets that are believed to be true until the creators come out or moves like cannibal holocaust where the creators were actually getting into legal trouble because athorities didn't believe that their videos were faked and they were only convinced when they found the actors who were "murdered" in the movie. If this happens with budgets of a million dollars, what do you think you can accomplish with over 20 billion dollars (late 1960s value) with grainy black and white? Just saying "nu-unh, can't be faked!" isn't enough.

And again, I'm not arguing that satellites and rovers didn't go to the moon, they did and satellites and rovers can send radio telemetry and can scoop up and bring back moon rocks.
 
And its only due to the space program that the capibility exists today to create such special effects on computers. Yes, of course we landed on the moon. Only a nutcase could believe otherwise.
 
Not only satellites and rovers but people went as well. There's no reason one can go but not the other.

Good! We agree the moondust was not done by strings. Of course not, since no one can simulate 1.6m/s2 gravity in vacuum for square kilometers at a time. That's why moon video can't be faked, no matter the budget. Go ahead and try.

And perhaps you believe "viral ads" and similar mind-rot but your credulity is already established. A little education goes a long way.
 
It would give you a little better perspective on the times if you lived it rather than just read about it.
Well that's a fallacy.... The only thing that living during some event does is help give one the "flavour" of what happened but it would hurt massively with the objectivity of looking at the event.
Your life experience is apparently not very extensive. What you call "objectivity" is what I call depending on second or third hand information.

the ultimate goal post was the moon and the Soviets had a demonstratively better chance of succeeding in the amazing achievement.
It obviously wasn't demonstrated, since we succeeded and they didn't.

So the US did what it did before and did after in situations when they are unable to accomplish something in their interests: they cheated.
If you can dig up some compelling 'behind the scenes' photos of the 'video production' you so believe in then I may continue to humor you. But I know you can't so I suppose we're at an impasse.

---------------
 
Considering the hardest technical challenge of any moonshot was getting several million pounds of highly explosive Saturn V off the pad in full view of everyone in a big chunk of Florida - yeah, they went to the moon. As for aerospace challenges, is it any easier to believe that thousands of commercial jets fly thousands of turbulent, near transonic miles, enduring thousands of take-offs, landings and pressurizations while having been built to do so profitably with almost no catastrophic mechanical failures? Lobbing a tin can or two through a vacuum seems "within reach" of sixties tech - we've only really dressed up the control systems since. Show me something flying today that's got that much on a Boeing 707 or Lockheed SR-71.
 
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Not only satellites and rovers but people went as well. There's no reason one can go but not the other.

There are tons of additional factors that one need to include when bringing a human being to the moon.

Good! We agree the moondust was not done by strings.
There wasn't any disagreement, you did what you tried to do again below and that is take selective bits and paste them together and then ridicule this invented argument which you try and pass off as mine. A strawman.


Of course not, since no one can simulate 1.6m/s2 gravity in vacuum for square kilometers at a time. That's why moon video can't be faked, no matter the budget.
You argue that it's impossible to make a fake video and then say it's because computers can't simulate a different gravity field? The NASA computer generated simulations and Star Trek episodes prove you wrong on that. I'm guessing that with the equivalent of 130 billion dollars, the US might have been able to do it but I'd like to know if you can provide me with any video of the Apollo 11 landing where you can see the astronauts kicking up moondust.


And perhaps you believe "viral ads" and similar mind-rot but your credulity is already established. A little education goes a long way.
And this would be the other strawman to which I was referring. You completely misread what I said and avoided the point that many people have been fooled by basic budget commercials and films is easy and in one case, even the producers saying "this was fake" wasn't enough for people to disbelieve it. If a group of experts were given over 100 billion of today's dollars for the singular purpose to create a fake video make in grainy black and white, I'm guessing they would probably succeed. By the way, this is the second time on the same point that you misrepresent my position, either accidentally or purposefully. If it's the latter, and you believe that you are absolutely right, you shouldn't have to be reduced to such tactics, if it's the former, I would avoid using expressions such as the last sentence quoted.

It would give you a little better perspective on the times if you lived it rather than just read about it.
Well that's a fallacy.... The only thing that living during some event does is help give one the "flavour" of what happened but it would hurt massively with the objectivity of looking at the event.
Your life experience is apparently not very extensive. What you call "objectivity" is what I call depending on second or third hand information.

Wait a minute, are you actually saying that since I wasn't directly involved in the Apollo project and thus have to use second hand information that that somehow undercuts my argument? That the information that I gave such as the specs for the camera used is somewhat lessened because I didn't see Westinghouse build and install it? And your second sentence of what you call objectivity doesn't make any sense. Objectivity is when you look at the evidence offered and make a judgement on the soundness of the evidence keeping the solid and removing the spurious and draw a hypothesis solely on the basis of that solid evidence.

the ultimate goal post was the moon and the Soviets had a demonstratively better chance of succeeding in the amazing achievement.
It obviously wasn't demonstrated, since we succeeded and they didn't.

Well first off, you're begging the question. Second, I don't think that word means what you think it means:demonstratively, adj: Serving to manifest or prove.

Very slowly: the Soviets served to manifest their better chance of succeeding of landing someone on the moon by having managed to outperform the US in all of the previous stages.

Put it another way: you've got two runners who race against each other and runner X beats runner Y in the 100m, 200m and 400m. Who would you assume to be the winner of the 1k based on past performance?

So the US did what it did before and did after in situations when they are unable to accomplish something in their interests: they cheated.
If you can dig up some compelling 'behind the scenes' photos of the 'video production' you so believe in then I may continue to humor you. But I know you can't so I suppose we're at an impasse.

So pointing out inconsistencies, mistakes and suspect elements within the the Apollo project isn't enough, using second and third hand sources isn't enough I have to provide some kind of photographic evidence of the astronauts on soundstage for you to start to question anything? Using that burden of proof, you must not believe anything that happened prior to the nineteenth century. You're asking for irrefutable evidence to prove a negative instead of being able to explain the inconsistencies found present in your version of events; something that should be spectacularly easy if man "obviously" went to the Moon.

Oh look:
gpn2002000032oz8.jpg
 
There are tons of additional factors that one need to include when bringing a human being to the moon.
Sure and NASA's rocket scientists did just that, over and over again.

There wasn't any disagreement, you did what you tried to do again below and that is take selective bits and paste them together and then ridicule this invented argument which you try and pass off as mine. A strawman.
You offered no other explanation for the ballistic dust arcs. Do you even understand what that means?

You argue that it's impossible to make a fake video and then say it's because computers can't simulate a different gravity field? The NASA computer generated simulations and Star Trek episodes prove you wrong on that.
None of the "simulations" and "episodes" you mention have ever been pawned off as real moon video. Try again.

I'm guessing that with the equivalent of 130 billion dollars, the US might have been able to do it but I'd like to know if you can provide me with any video of the Apollo 11 landing where you can see the astronauts kicking up moondust.
You'd be guessing wrong since fakes can't fool science. Anyway, that money was spent actually going to the moon.

And this would be the other strawman to which I was referring. You completely misread what I said and avoided the point that many people have been fooled by basic budget commercials and films is easy and in one case, even the producers saying "this was fake" wasn't enough for people to disbelieve it. If a group of experts were given over 100 billion of today's dollars for the singular purpose to create a fake video make in grainy black and white, I'm guessing they would probably succeed.
You'd be guessing wrong since fakes can't fool science. Anyway, that money was spent actually going to the moon.

By the way, this is the second time on the same point that you misrepresent my position, either accidentally or purposefully. If it's the latter, and you believe that you are absolutely right, you shouldn't have to be reduced to such tactics, if it's the former, I would avoid using expressions such as the last sentence quoted.
Your position is unfalsifiable so my tactics don't matter. I'd rather persuade the audience than untangle a knot of psych problems.
 
Wait a minute, are you actually saying that since I wasn't directly involved in the Apollo project and thus have to use second hand information that that somehow undercuts my argument?
No, I'm saying that your ability to discern good data from bad data about the Apollo project may be impaired by your lack of experience of those days.

Objectivity is when you look at the evidence offered and make a judgement on the soundness of the evidence keeping the solid and removing the spurious and draw a hypothesis solely on the basis of that solid evidence.
But you have to be able to determine which 'evidence' is 'solid'. You apparently are not able to do so.

Very slowly: the Soviets served to manifest their better chance of succeeding of landing someone on the moon by having managed to outperform the US in all of the previous stages.
I disagree. The Soviets sprinted ahead at the beginning, but didn't have the wherewithal to finish the race.

Put it another way: you've got two runners who race against each other and runner X beats runner Y in the 100m, 200m and 400m. Who would you assume to be the winner of the 1k based on past performance?
What I did was watch the race to see who won. The United States won the race to the moon. Did you watch the race?

I have to provide some kind of photographic evidence of the astronauts on soundstage for you to start to question anything?

Oh look:
gpn2002000032oz8.jpg
I always wondered if NASA trained their astronauts or took publicity photos. You've cleared up that mystery for me. Thanks.

---------------
 
Those conspiracy theory everyone-is-out-to-get-you nuts deserve the life they live. The sheer disrespect they show to the people who have given their blood, sweat and tears (and in some cases, their lives) is insulting and annoying.

The biggest idiot has to be that Coast to Coast AM caller who cries about the Van Allen Belt all the time.
 
Whether we did or not, you'll be burned as a heretic for saying otherwise, so the answer is yes. Only discuss the issue with someone that has already told you in advance that we didn't go, anyone else will just attack you.
 
Whether we did or not, you'll be burned as a heretic for saying otherwise, so the answer is yes. Only discuss the issue with someone that has already told you in advance that we didn't go, anyone else will just attack you.
So education is an "attack" now?

---------------
 
Well, I don't think the moon landings were faked. It just doesn't make sense that you could fake the landings without one of two things happening.

First, the Russians probably would have gotten wise to the fake very quickly. They were watching us and trying to discredit our way of life at the time. If we didn't go to the moon, surely the Ruskis would have blasted that one all over the place.

Second, for all the thousands of people who would have had to have been involved in shooting the film, no one has come forward. A tell all book about how the moon landings were faked would easily be a best-seller, yet no one seems to want that money. (Actually the same is true for other conspiracies) I don't think its possible to keep such a conspiracy quiet.

As to the idea of things like Trek and the Fake Mars landing movie being evidence of film technology of that era being able to imatate a real alien environment -- I don't think that works. They couldn't make images like that in 1980. It was just beyond the technology of the time. There was no photoshop, so it would be difficult to pull off. The fake Mars Landing movie was made only after the Apollo landings, so they were using those images to base the movie on. Naturally a movie about making fakes taking artistic direction from the actual moon landings is going to produce images that look like the moon landings.

 
And again, I'm not arguing that satellites and rovers didn't go to the moon, they did and satellites and rovers can send radio telemetry and can scoop up and bring back moon rocks.

So your argument is that we sent all of this equipment to the moon and back to fake that we sent people to the moon, but we didn't send any people there (when we could have because we sent equipment there and had put many people into space before that) and instead spent hundreds of millions or billions of dollars faking a movie and risked international embarrassment at the hands of a USSR that was surely scrutinizing every aspect of the Apollo project that they could?

:guffaw:

You haven't made one convincing argument. The burden of proof is on you to disprove a well-known and historic event, and every argument you've made is either illogical or has already been torn to pieces by people with more knowledge and a higher IQ than the both of us.

We went to the moon, deal with it. Within the next few years and decades, high resolution satellites and probes and possibly even people are going to go back to the moon. Undoubtedly, some attention will be given to Tranquillity Base, and there will be equipment there and there will be footprints there, and there will be an American flag laying in the dust, and you will eat your words.

Then again, enough time has gone by that I'm sure the conspiracy theorists will twist it into THAT information being faked or placed there in the intervening decades. "Reality" just can't win with some people.
 
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